Can I be a Godparent even if I am not Catholic?

katydid

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I dont think much of the ethical standards of most people regardless of religion or lack of. For someone who doesnt believe in god there is no difference between saying santa is real and god is real.

Swearing things you dont believe or will do is a common theme for many people taking part in sacraments. Nobody is being harmed by a person saying they believe in God when they dont. The event goes on and they get their piece of paper so that their child isnt at the bottom of the list for school, they get a party and the grandparents are kept happy.

Saying something in a casual context and making a formal declaration during the course of a religious ceremony, which has meaning for the celebrant and most of those participating are very different.

Fair enough if you don't see the difference, or believe other people don't. I'm just glad we're not all so cynical...:o

looksee

I am totally disillusioned by religion and have no religious beliefs, but I am not impressed by the people who think it is ok to lie just because it is only a ceremony or the parents don't believe anyway. You can't do anything about what other people are prepared to swear to, but surely you cannot stand there and say yes to the question 'do you renounce Satan and all his works' when you do not believe in Satan. And since it is not the time to get into a philosophical argument it is better to just go as a non-participating guest.

My children were baptised Catholic though I am not Catholic, and my sister stood as godparent to one of them. I knew that if it was needed, she would do all she could to ensure the child was raised as a Catholic. At that time there was no hypocrisy on my part as I accepted Christianity and nothing that I promised went against what I felt I could stand over.

Integrity and sincerity are not limited to religious people!

neemish

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I dont think much of the ethical standards of most people regardless of religion or lack of. For someone who doesnt believe in god there is no difference between saying santa is real and god is real.

Swearing things you dont believe or will do is a common theme for many people taking part in sacraments. Nobody is being harmed by a person saying they believe in God when they dont. The event goes on and they get their piece of paper so that their child isnt at the bottom of the list for school, they get a party and the grandparents are kept happy.

That's incredibly offensive to people who do believe in God and the Sacrament. I respect your right not to believe in God. But please don't mock what I believe in . Would you go into court and swear something you believed wasn't true?

shruikan2553

katydid wrote: »

Saying something in a casual context and making a formal declaration during the course of a religious ceremony, which has meaning for the celebrant and most of those participating are very different.

Fair enough if you don't see the difference, or believe other people don't. I'm just glad we're not all so cynical...:o

Personally I would rather not be involved in a communion or swear about the existence of any gods but it is clear that there are many people who have no issue with it.

neemish wrote: »

That's incredibly offensive to people who do believe in God and the Sacrament. I respect your right not to believe in God. But please don't mock what I believe in . Would you go into court and swear something you believed wasn't true?

I don't see how anything I said could be offensive. There are people who have no issue swearing about something they don't actually think. As I said, a religious couple would probably have no issue of someone turning down the role of godparent as they aren't religious while a non religious couple might think the person is being awkward as they have no issue with it.

Of course I wouldn't do it in court, its a crime and could lead to a innocent person being convicted or guilty person not being convicted.

eviltwin

When parents are choosing godparents I doubt very many are thinking "who would make a good Catholic rolemodel for our child?"...most pick people who are good people, who they know and trust will be a good influence in their child's life, who will play an active role etc.

I make a good godparent because I do all of the above, I take an interest in my godchildren. I'm no less a good role model just because I don't believe in God. The children I am godmother to are not religious, their parents don't bring them to church and one is not making her sacrements so I don't feel I am letting them down. I would refuse the role if I felt the parents would expect me to be involved in the religious side of things in a big way but as they don't I would have no issue accepting the role again.

homer911

eviltwin wrote: »

When parents are choosing godparents I doubt very many are thinking "who would make a good Catholic rolemodel for our child?"...most pick people who are good people, who they know and trust will be a good influence in their child's life, who will play an active role etc.

I make a good godparent because I do all of the above, I take an interest in my godchildren. I'm no less a good role model just because I don't believe in God. The children I am godmother to are not religious, their parents don't bring them to church and one is not making her sacrements so I don't feel I am letting them down. I would refuse the role if I felt the parents would expect me to be involved in the religious side of things in a big way but as they don't I would have no issue accepting the role again.

Then what's the point? The role is GODparent

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

When parents are choosing godparents I doubt very many are thinking "who would make a good Catholic rolemodel for our child?"...most pick people who are good people, who they know and trust will be a good influence in their child's life, who will play an active role etc.

I make a good godparent because I do all of the above, I take an interest in my godchildren. I'm no less a good role model just because I don't believe in God. The children I am godmother to are not religious, their parents don't bring them to church and one is not making her sacrements so I don't feel I am letting them down. I would refuse the role if I felt the parents would expect me to be involved in the religious side of things in a big way but as they don't I would have no issue accepting the role again.

Can you not do all of that without lying in a religious ceremony? People can skirt around it all they like, but GODparent is a religious role. We're involved with nieces and nephews and plan to continue to do so without needing to be GODparents. Aunts and uncles can do just the same, as can other adults.

eviltwin

lazygal wrote: »

Can you not do all of that without lying in a religious ceremony? People can skirt around it all they like, but GODparent is a religious role. We're involved with nieces and nephews and plan to continue to do so without needing to be GODparents. Aunts and uncles can do just the same, as can other adults.

Its meant to be a religious role but who really has godparents who do that. My godparents never took any interest in my religious wellbeing and they are devout catholics. Same with my siblings. Only one of my godchildren is a family member, its nice to have a special relationship with a child besides being mammy and daddy's friend and it was an honor to be asked.

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

Its meant to be a religious role but who really has godparents who do that. My godparents never took any interest in my religious wellbeing and they are devout catholics. Same with my siblings. Only one of my godchildren is a family member, its nice to have a special relationship with a child besides being mammy and daddy's friend and it was an honor to be asked.

I don't see why an aunt, uncle or anyone else has to lie in a religious ceremony to feel like they can play a special role in a child's life. Maybe if more people actually thought about whether they're ok with lying about the role to themselves and others they might reconsider whether its an honour. It's not meant to be a religious role, it is a religious role, which is why it involves a church ceremony of some sort usually.

mlumley

I am C.O.E. I would see no problem with being asked to be a GP of a catholic child. I would take it to mean that I promis to bring the child up as a good Catholic. I have been to Church with my Catholic children, and I try to see that they are good children.
I think that if you say yes, then all your being asked is to help them in Their faith. No big deal.There is not an insurmountable difference between the two faiths.

katydid

lazygal wrote: »

I don't see why an aunt, uncle or anyone else has to lie in a religious ceremony to feel like they can play a special role in a child's life. Maybe if more people actually thought about whether they're ok with lying about the role to themselves and others they might reconsider whether its an honour. It's not meant to be a religious role, it is a religious role, which is why it involves a church ceremony of some sort usually.

They wouldn't be lying about their role. They would be lying when asked if they believed in God, and said yes if they didn't.

katydid

mlumley wrote: »

I am C.O.E. I would see no problem with being asked to be a GP of a catholic child. I would take it to mean that I promis to bring the child up as a good Catholic. I have been to Church with my Catholic children, and I try to see that they are good children.
I think that if you say yes, then all your being asked is to help them in Their faith. No big deal.There is not an insurmountable difference between the two faiths.

I'm CofI and I'm godmother to my RC niece. She has been confirmed now, so in theory my role is completed, but had it been necessary, and I had been put in a position of ensuring her welfare when she was younger, I would have ensured she had received whatever instruction and guidance she needed.

katydid

eviltwin wrote: »

When parents are choosing godparents I doubt very many are thinking "who would make a good Catholic rolemodel for our child?"...most pick people who are good people, who they know and trust will be a good influence in their child's life, who will play an active role etc.

I make a good godparent because I do all of the above, I take an interest in my godchildren. I'm no less a good role model just because I don't believe in God. The children I am godmother to are not religious, their parents don't bring them to church and one is not making her sacrements so I don't feel I am letting them down. I would refuse the role if I felt the parents would expect me to be involved in the religious side of things in a big way but as they don't I would have no issue accepting the role again.

Being a good role model etc. etc. is not what being a godparent is about. It is a religious role. The hint in in the word GOD...

It's not about what the parents would expect. It's about what the church in which you make your commitment expects. It's about you stating that you believe in God. Do I take it you stood in the church and lied?

katydid

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Personally I would rather not be involved in a communion or swear about the existence of any gods but it is clear that there are many people who have no issue with it.



I don't see how anything I said could be offensive. There are people who have no issue swearing about something they don't actually think. As I said, a religious couple would probably have no issue of someone turning down the role of godparent as they aren't religious while a non religious couple might think the person is being awkward as they have no issue with it.

Of course I wouldn't do it in court, its a crime and could lead to a innocent person being convicted or guilty person not being convicted.

And would you think that a person who would have no issue with lying is a good role model for a child?

Why would anyone think a person was being awkward for taking a principled stance instead of being dishonest?

eviltwin

katydid wrote: »

And would you think that a person who would have no issue with lying is a good role model for a child?

Why would anyone think a person was being awkward for taking a principled stance instead of being dishonest?

Oh for crying out loud, do you think people - and lets include the parents here because they are also "liars" - actually are bad role models who tell their godchild/offspring to lie, that they encourage it? I'm very honest with my kids and godkids, they all know I don't believe in god, its a fairy tale so its easy to lie about it, god won't get hurt :rolleyes: I don't see it as any different to telling a child about Santa or letting them believe superheroes exist. They are babies when they are baptised, they don't know what is going on. Yeah its hypocritical and I hold my hand up to that, if I was asked today I would say no but my bad, I put the honor of being asked on a higher plane to the lie which didn't seem that big a deal to me at the time to be really honest.

katydid

eviltwin wrote: »

Oh for crying out loud, do you think people - and lets include the parents here because they are also "liars" - actually are bad role models who tell their godchild/offspring to lie, that they encourage it? I'm very honest with my kids and godkids, they all know I don't believe in god, its a fairy tale so its easy to lie about it, god won't get hurt :rolleyes: I don't see it as any different to telling a child about Santa or letting them believe superheroes exist. They are babies when they are baptised, they don't know what is going on. Yeah its hypocritical and I hold my hand up to that, if I was asked today I would say no but my bad, I put the honor of being asked on a higher plane to the lie which didn't seem that big a deal to me at the time to be really honest.

They are not telling their godchildren or offspring to lie but they themselves are lying if they say in a solemn religious ceremony that they don't believe in God.

So when your godchild turns around to you and says "why did you lie in church when you said you believed in God", what will you say to him or her?

You put "the honour of being asked on a higher plane to the lie"... I find it incredible that you see nothing wrong with that.

eviltwin

katydid wrote: »

They are not telling their godchildren or offspring to lie but they themselves are lying if they say in a solemn religious ceremony that they don't believe in God.

So when your godchild turns around to you and says "why did you lie in church when you said you believed in God", what will you say to him or her?

You put "the honour of being asked on a higher plane to the lie"... I find it incredible that you see nothing wrong with that.

I don't see anything wrong with lying about God because I don't believe in God. Simple as that really. I tell my son about Santa Claus and he's not real. Does that make me a bad role model? Only my first godchild is old enough to ask me anything and I was an a la carte Catholic at her christening so its not an issue, with the second I'll just be honest and tell him his folks asked me and I was happy to oblige. He hasn't been back in a church anyway since so I guess its not going to be too much of a shock to him. He only got baptised because his mum wants him to go to a particular school.

katydid

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with lying about God because I don't believe in God. Simple as that really. I tell my son about Santa Claus and he's not real. Does that make me a bad role model? Only my first godchild is old enough to ask me anything and I was an a la carte Catholic at her christening so its not an issue, with the second I'll just be honest and tell him his folks asked me and I was happy to oblige. He hasn't been back in a church anyway since so I guess its not going to be too much of a shock to him. He only got baptised because his mum wants him to go to a particular school.

Lying is lying. If you go to a situation where the celebrant and the participants hold certain beliefs, and you deliberately and knowingly participate in a ceremony where you are asked to confirm certain beliefs which you don't hold, you behave dishonestly and unethically by saying yes.

Santa Claus is different. You are not being asked in a solemn ceremony to make a statement swearing your belief.

So, basically both you and the child's parents abused the goodwill of a priest and the congregation of a church and treated the ceremony of baptism as a farce, simply so the child could go to a certain school. I find that despicable. And I'm not a Roman Catholic.

eviltwin

katydid wrote: »

Lying is lying. If you go to a situation where the celebrant and the participants hold certain beliefs, and you deliberately and knowingly participate in a ceremony where you are asked to confirm certain beliefs which you don't hold, you behave dishonestly and unethically by saying yes.

Santa Claus is different. You are not being asked in a solemn ceremony to make a statement swearing your belief.

So, basically both you and the child's parents abused the goodwill of a priest and the congregation of a church and treated the ceremony of baptism as a farce, simply so the child could go to a certain school. I find that despicable. And I'm not a Roman Catholic.

The goodwill of the priest? He knows me, he knows I'm atheist and knew it on the day. Funnily enough he didn't have a problem with it. But its done now and no one has suffered any long term impact from it. I'm sure the child won't need therapy because of it. I don't see it as a solemn anything either, it was just the done thing as most of these events are.

katydid

eviltwin wrote: »

The goodwill of the priest? He knows me, he knows I'm atheist and knew it on the day. Funnily enough he didn't have a problem with it. But its done now and no one has suffered any long term impact from it. I'm sure the child won't need therapy because of it. I don't see it as a solemn anything either, it was just the done thing as most of these events are.

The priest knew you were lying, but it is not up to him to tell you not to say something; that is an issue for your conscience.

The ceremony of baptism is a solemn and meaningful one for believers. For the priest and for the congregation. To take part in a ceremony you don't believe in is an insult to them, and to the child at the centre of it, no matter how you try to justify it to yourself.

eviltwin

katydid wrote: »

The priest knew you were lying, but it is not up to him to tell you not to say something; that is an issue for your conscience.

The ceremony of baptism is a solemn and meaningful one for believers. For the priest and for the congregation. To take part in a ceremony you don't believe in is an insult to them, and to the child at the centre of it, no matter how you try to justify it to yourself.

We'll have to agree to differ then. I don't see it that way.

shruikan2553

katydid wrote: »

Lying is lying. If you go to a situation where the celebrant and the participants hold certain beliefs, and you deliberately and knowingly participate in a ceremony where you are asked to confirm certain beliefs which you don't hold, you behave dishonestly and unethically by saying yes.

Santa Claus is different. You are not being asked in a solemn ceremony to make a statement swearing your belief.

So, basically both you and the child's parents abused the goodwill of a priest and the congregation of a church and treated the ceremony of baptism as a farce, simply so the child could go to a certain school. I find that despicable. And I'm not a Roman Catholic.

And yet it is seen as the done thing. Even by people who call themselves catholic.

katydid

eviltwin wrote: »

We'll have to agree to differ then. I don't see it that way.

It's not about seeing it differently. It's a FACT that you lied in a formal religious ceremony, and it's a FACT that in society, lying is regarded as unethical.

You don't have a problem with lying. Fine. But at least admit it.

katydid

shruikan2553 wrote: »

And yet it is seen as the done thing. Even by people who call themselves catholic.

Since when is lying seen as "the done thing"?

eviltwin

katydid wrote: »

It's not about seeing it differently. It's a FACT that you lied in a formal religious ceremony, and it's a FACT that in society, lying is regarded as unethical.

You don't have a problem with lying. Fine. But at least admit it.

I already did admit it. I don't see a problem with it. It's a white lie, no one was harmed by it, it wasn't said to do anything illegal or gain an unfair advantage over someone else. The fact is that most of the people who use the church on special events are lying and its not really that big a deal. How many weddings have you been to where the couple were living an unCatholic life, how many kids do you know making their communion who never go to church? And everyone knows it bull but its become a cultural thing more than a religious one.

shruikan2553

katydid wrote: »

Since when is lying seen as "the done thing"?

Seeing as 80 something percent of the country is meant to be catholic its a bit strange how low church attendance is. Often you hear parents who never go to mass just going along with the whole communion thing to please the grandparents. Then you have all those children completing communion and confirmation for the money and day out. If the Catholics themselves aren't taking it seriously then you can't be surprised when nobody else does.

Peregrinus

Is there not a bit of an issue, though, with an atheist/agnostic justifying the morality of a certain course of action by saying that Catholics engage in it? The moral value of truth is a question that presents itself whether you're a theist or an atheist, and it seems a bit odd for an atheist to justify telling a particular untruth on the basis that Catholics tell the same untruth, or similar untruths. The implication is that Catholics are the standard according to which morality is to be set; if Catholics do it then it must be ethically acceptable. It seems an odd standard for an atheist to adopt.

Not getting at you in particular, Shruikan - as I say, this issue arises in one form or another for everybody, theist or atheist alike - but over on A&A they lately had threads on celebrating religious funerals for non-religious people, and the morality of infant baptism, and if memory doesn't fail me you participated in both of them. It seems to me that if we take beliefs seriously, and in particular demand equal respect for beliefs which are non-religious then, yes, expecting people to make false statements about or give false impressions of their beliefs is problematic, and people asked to do that should have a problem about agreeing to.

katydid

eviltwin wrote: »

I already did admit it. I don't see a problem with it. It's a white lie, no one was harmed by it, it wasn't said to do anything illegal or gain an unfair advantage over someone else. The fact is that most of the people who use the church on special events are lying and its not really that big a deal. How many weddings have you been to where the couple were living an unCatholic life, how many kids do you know making their communion who never go to church? And everyone knows it bull but its become a cultural thing more than a religious one.

Dishonesty is about a hell of a lot more than not harming others or getting an advantage. You stood amongst a community of believers, to whom the sacrament of baptism is very important, and made a statement saying you shared their beliefs.

You have no idea if "the majority" of people lie like you did, but whether it's one person or ten thousand, it's unethical and hypocritical. And in the context of taking on the role of guide and mentor to a child, it is the ultimate in hypocrisy.

You really think dishonesty is lessened by the number of people who engage in it?

homer911

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Seeing as 80 something percent of the country is meant to be catholic its a bit strange how low church attendance is. Often you hear parents who never go to mass just going along with the whole communion thing to please the grandparents. Then you have all those children completing communion and confirmation for the money and day out. If the Catholics themselves aren't taking it seriously then you can't be surprised when nobody else does.

And therein lies part of the basis and reasoning behind adult baptism practised by many evangelical protestant churches (not to mention the biblical basis of course). I expect that in one generation, perhaps two, we will see adult baptism as the norm in Ireland

lazygal

homer911 wrote: »

And therein lies part of the basis and reasoning behind adult baptism practised by many evangelical protestant churches (not to mention the biblical basis of course). I expect that in one generation, perhaps two, we will see adult baptism as the norm in Ireland

As long as state services like education limit enrolment to those who produce a baptism cert parents will baptize for the sake of school places. I know several myself who baptize the eldest child to ensure a school place, don't bother with the younger children as siblings get priority and have no intention of doing the sacraments.