Dublin marathon, the elite results

pconn062

So I thought I'd start a thread after listening to this weeks JTG podcast. The lads were discussing the relatively slow winning times in both the men and women's race, and the National championship races. Let's face it, for a large international race, 2.14 and 2.34 are pretty poor times. As the lads said, the are currently 100's of East Africans currently running sub 2.06/7 and sub 2.25. Interesting comment from Jim Aughney too saying that basically he is trying to build a race where the top elites aren't going to destroy the top Irish runners, so guys who aren't running quicker than 2.12 really (and 2.30 for the ladies). Personally, I'm not sure about this policy.

Is it right to weaken a field just so the Irish guys and girls don't get blown out of it? In that case, why invite International elites at all and ave the possibility of an Irish winner every year? To do that you are sacrificing fast times and possible course records and Dublin will get a reputation as not being a fast race.

The guys also comment on the obvious weakness in the Irish fields, no disrespect to the athletes competing but 2.20 in the men is miles away from competitive and discuss getting younger guys into the marathon earlier.

Thoughts/opinions?

yaboya1

What is the story regarding the foreign Elites? Are they obligated to finish to get paid/earn their expenses etc.?
Somebody told me today that the pre-race favourite for the mens race (Birke) finished in 4.5 hours. I was thinking he must have injured himself at some stage, but why else would he continue in that case unless he was under pressure to do so.
Anyone know the score here?

johnobertie2

for a start there aren't hundreds of East Africans running sub 2-06/7

And the native British and US marathoners have also slowed dramatically in recent years

Netwerk Errer

That whole attitude of watering down a field to protect an athletes emotions really gets on my nerves. These athletes are not children. They have dealt with bigger obstacles in their life than been beaten by a much better athlete. I don't think I have ever heard of an athlete whinging about the field been too strong. In fact, I think they are more annoyed by the lack of depth in most races. I'm a firm believer in competition breeding success.

I don't think the issue is about bringing athletes to the marathon at a young age is the problem because tbh, the lack of depth spans pretty much every distance. I believe the problem starts with poor funding at grassroots level. Athletics just isn't popular enough anymore with kids and there isn't any real push from AI to get kids competing at a young age.

This is the same Jim Aughney who said one of his main goals was to have someone run 2.09 in Dublin. What the hell changed? For me, this friendly marathon philosophy has gone too far if you want to exclude top athletes from the race just to give Irish athletes a pat on the back.

leftism

I can only comment on Eliud's preparation and race plan for Monday which could be summed up in 4 words:

"do nothing until halfway"

Based on the course profile and prevailing winds (especially through the park) our tactic was to shelter and conserve as much possible energy over the first 20km. Watching the race unfold it was immediately apparent that the 3 Ethiopians and Koech had very similar race plans. None of them wanted to put in much work at the front and so a stalemate ensued. Eliud actually ran past his bottle at the 20km feed station. He had time to turn around, run back to the station and pick it up before rejoining the group. His feedback after the race, was that the pace was pedestrian right up until he kicked at 25km. Which suited him just fine. As i mentioned to many people after the race, he didn't come here to run a fast time. If we'd wanted fast times, we'd have sent him to Frankfurt or Amsterdam.

All of the tests we've carried out on Eliud indicate that he has the capacity to run a 2.08. In his debut in Cleveland, he was actually on schedule for a 2.07 right up until the final 5km when he blew up spectacularly, but that was mostly just down to inexperience with feeding etc. Our concern is less about time and more about developing a winning mentality. Finishing top 10 in Chicago probably would have paid out about the same money, but all Eliud would learn is how to finish top 10. A better lesson is to learn how to win.

The bottom line is that with a modest prize purse and no time bonuses, the race was always likely to turn into a game of poker (which i personally find more interesting anyway). If the organisers and fans want faster times, then increase the purse and draw more talent. But for us, the race was perfect for the stage Eliud is at in his career and was a great step forward in his long term development.

-Neil

yaboya1

leftism wrote: »

I can only comment on Eliud's preparation and race plan for Monday which could be summed up in 4 words:

"do nothing until halfway"

Based on the course profile and prevailing winds (especially through the park) our tactic was to shelter and conserve as much possible energy over the first 20km. Watching the race unfold it was immediately apparent that the 3 Ethiopians and Koech had very similar race plans. None of them wanted to put in much work at the front and so a stalemate ensued. Eliud actually ran past his bottle at the 20km feed station. He had time to turn around, run back to the station and pick it up before rejoining the group. His feedback after the race, was that the pace was pedestrian right up until he kicked at 25km. Which suited him just fine. As i mentioned to many people after the race, he didn't come here to run a fast time. If we'd wanted fast times, we'd have sent him to Frankfurt or Amsterdam.

All of the tests we've carried out on Eliud indicate that he has the capacity to run a 2.08. In his debut in Cleveland, he was actually on schedule for a 2.07 right up until the final 5km when he blew up spectacularly, but that was mostly just down to inexperience with feeding etc. Our concern is less about time and more about developing a winning mentality. Finishing top 10 in Chicago probably would have paid out about the same money, but all Eliud would learn is how to finish top 10. A better lesson is to learn how to win.

The bottom line is that with a modest prize purse and no time bonuses, the race was always likely to turn into a game of poker (which i personally find more interesting anyway). If the organisers and fans want faster times, then increase the purse and draw more talent. But for us, the race was perfect for the stage Eliud is at in his career and was a great step forward in his long term development.

-Neil

Thanks for this.
Very interesting to read an Elite's race strategy.

average_runner

The guy in charge of the Dublin marathon said the following about the marathon;

Dublin is not having time bonuses anymore, they dont want the real elite runners any more, more like they want the D or E class runners from Kenya. These are the runners that can run with the top Irish runners to have a proper race.

So basically Dublin marathon is not to be considered for fast kenyans etc but just a good marathon for the newbie's in Kenya etc and help promote our local talent.

average_runner

johnobertie2 wrote: »

for a start there aren't hundreds of East Africans running sub 2-06/7

And the native British and US marathoners have also slowed dramatically in recent years

The British and US slowed down because they abandoned the marathon for the track!

The standard Dublin is looking for, is the 2:12 standard or slower and their is thousands of these in Kenya and Aftrica

leftism

average_runner wrote: »

The British and US slowed down because they abandoned the marathon for the track!

The standard Dublin is looking for, is the 2:12 standard or slower and their is thousands of these in Kenya and Aftrica

Lads, where are yiz getting these numbers from?

Breaking 2.08 would place you top 30 in the world this year.

Breaking 2.12 would place you roughly in the top 150.

10 runners finished under 2.12 in Chicago. In Berlin it was 11. Last year in Berlin there was only 8 under 2.12! This idea that there are thousands of sub 2.12 runners actively competing at any given time is simply untrue.

average_runner

leftism wrote: »

Lads, where are yiz getting these numbers from?

Breaking 2.08 would place you top 30 in the world this year.

Breaking 2.12 would place you roughly in the top 150.

10 runners finished under 2.12 in Chicago. In Berlin it was 11. Last year in Berlin there was only 8 under 2.12! This idea that there are thousands of sub 2.12 runners actively competing at any given time is simply untrue.

No one is saying anything about breaking sub 2:12, we are saying the standard to run 2:12 or worst. Dublin dont want anyone that can run sub 2:12 as they are too good.

Plus look at marathons in Kenya and you have a bigger picture. 7 people broke 2:12 last week in Amsterdam!!

Festinatio Cursor

leftism wrote: »

Lads, where are yiz getting these numbers from?

Breaking 2.08 would place you top 30 in the world this year.

Breaking 2.12 would place you roughly in the top 150.

10 runners finished under 2.12 in Chicago. In Berlin it was 11. Last year in Berlin there was only 8 under 2.12! This idea that there are thousands of sub 2.12 runners actively competing at any given time is simply untrue.

Exactly I think in build up to the Olympics there was 437 Kenyans who had the standard which was 2.15

Couple in Ethiopians and a few Eritreans/Ugandans and that number is probably about 600/700 athletes capable of 2.15 or better, rule out athletes who have committed to other marathons and suddenly that pool is a hell of alot smaller

pconn062

I never said there were 1000's of runners running 2.07, let's not exaggerate. However I read a link recently (on phone now will link it later) that shows the numbers under 2.10 and it's huge. There may be only 12 on Berlin under 2.10 and 10 in Chicago, but it's not the same runners each time. Also I don't really get the point about saying Americans and British are slower, so they are slower so it's ok for us to be slower?? If only the East Africans took the same attitude.

leftism

average_runner wrote: »

7 people broke 2:12 last week in Amsterdam

So 10 in Chicago + 11 in Berlin + 7 in Amsterdam = 28 runners

And those are 3 of the fastest courses on the international circuit!

The idea that there are 1000's of athletes running 2.12 or quicker is nonsense. There are maybe 200 at a push in any given season.

average_runner

leftism wrote: »

So 10 in Chicago + 11 in Berlin + 7 in Amsterdam = 28 runners

And those are 3 of the fastest courses on the international circuit!

The idea that there are 1000's of athletes running 2.12 or quicker is nonsense. There are maybe 200 at a push in any given season.

Who said there was 1000 and who said anything about sub 2:12, i didnt?

And 10 went sub 2:12 in Nairobi marathon in 2012, not a fast marathon either!

leftism

pconn062 wrote: »

I never said there were 1000's of runners running 2.07, let's not exaggerate.

I hate quoting people directly but:

pconn062 wrote: »

As the lads said, the are currently 100's of East Africans currently running sub 2.06/7

Less than 30 athletes on the planet have ran sub 2.08 in 2014. I'm not the one exaggerating...

average_runner

leftism wrote: »

I hate quoting people directly but:



Less than 30 athletes on the planet have ran sub 2.08 in 2014. I'm not the one exaggerating...

Still no mention of 1000's there, except from you

pconn062

leftism wrote: »

I hate quoting people directly but:



Less than 30 athletes on the planet have ran sub 2.08 in 2014. I'm not the one exaggerating...

Yes but I think you've added an extra zero onto what I said! I said 100's, you say there is maybe 200 so we're not exactly disagreeing with each other. But that's missing the main point of the thread which is the Dublin marathons policy with elite runners.

average_runner

At the end of the day, dublin has now stated it doesn't really want elite athletes. While this will lower the standard of Dublin, it will make it more interesting on a competitive front.

And it will make no difference to the joe soap runner.

But they should rebrand the marathon, its not really the Dublin City marathon anymore, its more South Dublin marathon:D

I agree with JTG in that the organisers have abandoned what the marathon stood for by leaving out the north side and having more of it thru the park with feck all crowd there, I mean why not run down Griffeen Ave, there be great support there.

youngrun

Are there many Irish capable of sub 2.20s at present ? And sub 2.20 on a difficult day like mondays conditions on a course like Dublin not Berlin ? Sergiu has 2.15 on a perfect day in 2012, 2.21 this year and seems in good nick. Last years conditions were a couple of mins better than this I would think with wind/humidity etc . Okay there are the likes of Pollock, hehir kenneally and sweeney , but for various reasons not there, after that who is there?

Sacksian

If Tadese or Mutai aren't going to be available, and they're not, then personally I'd rather watch a good race at the front, ideally for the national championship.

As a spectator, a good race at the front captures my imagination more than a procession. How great was it to see Maria McCambridge racing for the win?? Equally, I'm sure this is true for many of the 000s of people who actually stand on the streets watching marathons and who wouldn't necessarily know that the guys they're watching are not real elites.

Irish people have run the Dublin marathon in quick times, so it's not as if it isn't possible. The conditions on Monday were exceptional.

The real question is how to get younger, better athletes into the marathon sooner - competition and success in sport is generally a numbers game - but I don't think that's a problem for the organisers of the Dublin marathon.

Sacksian

Also +1 for a Northside route, Griffith Avenue would be brilliant - possibly even bringing it back to Raheny and across to Santry to take in the larger clubs along the route.

leftism

average_runner wrote: »

Still no mention of 1000's there, except from you

Actually, on rereading your post you said 2.12 or SLOWER so apologies on the misread.

So basically 2.12 or slower is everyone on the planet apart from about 200 men. :P

Regarding the times in Niarobi, i wouldn't have too much faith in those. Eliud did a half marathon 4 weeks ago in Niarobi. The course was out and back. He was 12th at the turn, caught several runners on the back stretch and finished in 35th position. Lots of "short-cuts" being taken in those races...

average_runner

Sacksian wrote: »

Also +1 for a Northside route, Griffith Avenue would be brilliant - possibly even bringing it back to Raheny and across to Santry to take in the larger clubs along the route.

The crowds in Raheny would be amazing, be some buzz around there. Love racing there for the 5 miler in Jan.

leftism

pconn062 wrote: »

Yes but I think you've added an extra zero onto what I said! I said 100's, you say there is maybe 200 so we're not exactly disagreeing with each other. But that's missing the main point of the thread which is the Dublin marathons policy with elite runners.

You said there are 100's of East Africans under 2.08. I'm telling you less than 30 men in the World have done it this season. Anyways, we're arguing semantics. Essentially there are lots of East Africans running fast times, but not as many as people tend to assume.

On the Dublin marathon policy with elite runners, i cannot really comment. We entered Eliud in Wave 1 and were lucky to secure him an elite bib at the very last minute. But he was not invited to race in Dublin.

Krusty_Clown

youngrun wrote: »

Are there many Irish capable of sub 2.20s at present ? And sub 2.20 on a difficult day like mondays conditions on a course like Dublin not Berlin ? Sergiu has 2.15 on a perfect day in 2012, 2.21 this year and seems in good nick. Last years conditions were a couple of mins better than this I would think with wind/humidity etc . Okay there are the likes of Pollock, hehir kenneally and sweeney , but for various reasons not there, after that who is there?

Perhaps stirring the pot a little, but based on his Charleville performance, one would imagine that Fagan would have been competitive. Probably better for all involved that he wasn't there, but his recent times would suggest that he would have been right up there.

TFBubendorfer

average_runner wrote: »

At the end of the day, dublin has now stated it doesn't really want elite athletes. While this will lower the standard of Dublin, it will make it more interesting on a competitive front.

Dublin never had top elite athletes to start with. They don't pay appearance fees, which immediately rules out the top runners.

They always tried to identify young up-and-coming runners, and from what I can see that hasn't changed much.

I think they might be trying to get elites that are better than the best Irish runners at the moment but not completely out of sight, which personally I think is exactly the right thing to do.

RayCun

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

I don't think the issue is about bringing athletes to the marathon at a young age is the problem because tbh, the lack of depth spans pretty much every distance. I believe the problem starts with poor funding at grassroots level. Athletics just isn't popular enough anymore with kids and there isn't any real push from AI to get kids competing at a young age.

There are over 50000 AI members, I think the largest it has ever been. Don't know the exact breakdown but easily 20k juvenile members, probably the largest ever too. There is an insane number of kids competing in Dublin. Massive drop off at about 15 - either they drop athletics or they stop competing, different topic - but at a young age there are loads of kids racing.

Clum

average_runner wrote: »

The guy in charge of the Dublin marathon said the following about the marathon;

Dublin is not having time bonuses anymore, they dont want the real elite runners any more, more like they want the D or E class runners from Kenya. These are the runners that can run with the top Irish runners to have a proper race.

So basically Dublin marathon is not to be considered for fast kenyans etc but just a good marathon for the newbie's in Kenya etc and help promote our local talent.

If Dublin it purposely inviting the D and E class Kenyans who will run with the top class Irish runners it would benefit the Irish runners a lot more if Dublin attracted A and B class Europeans who would also run with the top class Irish runners.

These are the guys Irish runners will compete against in championships. D and E class Kenyans don't go to championships.

At the European Championships this summer in the men's marathon (which wasn't flat and had a nice hill on each lap) the first 26 finished sub 2.20 with the winner home in 2.11. Those 26 runners will be some of the people the top Irish lads will compete against over 10,000m and marathons on the european circuit over the near future.

They'd also attract more publicity for the race if the top marathoners from European countries were competing rather than D and E class, previously unheard of, Kenyans.

28064212

How much should DCM be offering? Current winner's purse is €10,000, how much would that need to be increased to attract a truely top-end talent?

Secondly, what would be the advantage? Obviously Dublin is never going to compete with London, Paris or Berlin in terms of prestige, but is DCM ever likely to get to the level of Frankfurt or Rotterdam? I don't think it's very likely that Dublin will ever be above a third-tier marathon. There's nothing wrong with that, we simply don't have either the natural or economic attributes to compete with the top two tiers. In my opinion, of course.

So with that in mind, what should the purpose of the elite field in Dublin be? Tbh, I can't see a lot wrong with the stated intention of bringing elites who are likely to be just beyond the national contenders. It encourages local improvements, without being massively out of reach. Would Maria McCambridge have run 2:34 if, instead of challenging for the lead, she was 5 minutes behind a Jeptoo or a Kiplagat at halfway?

RayCun

pconn062 wrote: »

Interesting comment from Jim Aughney too saying that basically he is trying to build a race where the top elites aren't going to destroy the top Irish runners, so guys who aren't running quicker than 2.12 really (and 2.30 for the ladies). Personally, I'm not sure about this policy... Is it right to weaken a field just so the Irish guys and girls don't get blown out of it? In that case, why invite International elites at all and ave the possibility of an Irish winner every year? To do that you are sacrificing fast times and possible course records and Dublin will get a reputation as not being a fast race.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Dublin is the 30th fastest race in Europe. And assume that by changing the course a bit, and actively looking for faster runners, you could get that down to 15th or 20th. If you are an elite runner looking to record a very fast time for team qualification or something, you're going to look for a race in the top 5 fastest. Dublin is still not going to get a look-in. So unless Dublin starts offering much larger prizes to winners/fast times, those 2.06/2.07 runners aren't going to come here. They can earn more and run faster somewhere else (even if we say the course is currently 3 minutes 'slow' and you get that down to 90 seconds 'slow'... that is still 'slow')

So if your goal is to make Dublin one of the top ten marathons in the world for fast times and elite runners - give up now. That isn't going to happen. There are other marathons with a lot more money and a lot more status, and there always will be.

But that is not the only possible goal. Dublin is the national marathon championship. Getting the best Irish runners into Dublin is a reasonable target. Because of the nature of marathon running, people can't race in a championship in the summer and also run Dublin in October. And in championship qualification periods, people are going to try to get into the absolute fastest courses. But taking those two factors into account, its worth asking if Dublin is getting a real championship field into each race and if not, what could be done about it?
(Same as with the national track and field championship. You don't always get the very best Irish athletes competing there, because as professionals they have to go where the money is. But you can keep studying the situation and seeing if there's anything that can be changed to make the nationals more attractive)

And does the marathon develop Irish marathon running? I think the women's race was very successful in that respect this year. McCambridge pushed harder and ran faster than she would have without the international competition, and she got the confidence boost of beating a lot of that competition. If the women's winner, or all the international women in a group, had been five minutes up the road, how would that have benefited anyone?

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Dublin is the 30th fastest race in Europe. And assume that by changing the course a bit, and actively looking for faster runners, you could get that down to 15th or 20th. If you are an elite runner looking to record a very fast time for team qualification or something, you're going to look for a race in the top 5 fastest. Dublin is still not going to get a look-in. So unless Dublin starts offering much larger prizes to winners/fast times, those 2.06/2.07 runners aren't going to come here. They can earn more and run faster somewhere else (even if we say the course is currently 3 minutes 'slow' and you get that down to 90 seconds 'slow'... that is still 'slow')

So if your goal is to make Dublin one of the top ten marathons in the world for fast times and elite runners - give up now. That isn't going to happen. There are other marathons with a lot more money and a lot more status, and there always will be.

But that is not the only possible goal. Dublin is the national marathon championship. Getting the best Irish runners into Dublin is a reasonable target. Because of the nature of marathon running, people can't race in a championship in the summer and also run Dublin in October. And in championship qualification periods, people are going to try to get into the absolute fastest courses. But taking those two factors into account, its worth asking if Dublin is getting a real championship field into each race and if not, what could be done about it?
(Same as with the national track and field championship. You don't always get the very best Irish athletes competing there, because as professionals they have to go where the money is. But you can keep studying the situation and seeing if there's anything that can be changed to make the nationals more attractive)

And does the marathon develop Irish marathon running? I think the women's race was very successful in that respect this year. McCambridge pushed harder and ran faster than she would have without the international competition, and she got the confidence boost of beating a lot of that competition. If the women's winner, or all the international women in a group, had been five minutes up the road, how would that have benefited anyone?

As i said its no harm making it a competitive race with a lower standard, might even convince someone to show on the box!!