Marathon - glycogen management while running

RayCun

I don't take gels in training, but I take 1 in a half marathon, 4 in a marathon. Maybe a lot of the benefit I feel is placebo effect, I don't know, and it doesn't really matter. I've never felt any ill-effects from taking them, and I only race those distances once or twice a year, so any effect on my overall metabolism is minimal. There's no downside to taking them.

ThePiedPiper

I don't know about the emotional side of it, but from a purely scientific point, if you burn approximately 3,000 calories in a race, for some people at least, it makes sense to try and get 400-500 of those replaced over the course of the distance. In an ideal world, I'd prefer to go without, but for me, it's a physical crutch to make up for imperfect training.

ultraman1

Enduro wrote: »

fruits (but not too much, !

How much fruit is too much,....I have dat overweight persons disease called gluttony,and I work in a kitchen,so the temptation is to ate eveeverything.I have to make high calorie biscuits ,cakes,soups etc as it is in a high dependency enviroment .I always snack/stuff my face on fruit ....yesterday I ate at least 8 clemintines,5 plums,6 bannanas,bunch of grapes,....too much

PaulieC

ultraman1 wrote: »

How much fruit is too much,....I have dat overweight persons disease called gluttony,and I work in a kitchen,so the temptation is to ate eveeverything.I have to make high calorie biscuits ,cakes,soups etc as it is in a high dependency enviroment .I always snack/stuff my face on fruit ....yesterday I ate at least 8 clemintines,5 plums,6 bannanas,bunch of grapes,....too much

There's a saying that you can't outrun your mouth, but I think it probably doesn't apply to you ��

tunguska

Yeah I think training on empty is a solution. I did it for the lead up to the marathon last year and it made a significant difference to how I felt in the second half of the race(big negative split). I took 2 gels during the race but to be honest Im not so sure they did anything, I feel like I wouldve had the same result regardless.
I didnt train on empty this year(long story) and it made a difference. I think it works for long races like the marathon but it is a black art and I wouldnt mess around with training in a depleted state for shorter stuff like 5k, 10k, even 10 milers.

kit3

ultraman1 wrote: »

How much fruit is too much,....I have dat overweight persons disease called gluttony,and I work in a kitchen,so the temptation is to ate eveeverything.I have to make high calorie biscuits ,cakes,soups etc as it is in a high dependency enviroment .I always snack/stuff my face on fruit ....yesterday I ate at least 8 clemintines,5 plums,6 bannanas,bunch of grapes,....too much

Hope you were never too far from the loo

sydneybound

RayCun wrote: »

I don't take gels in training, but I take 1 in a half marathon, 4 in a marathon. Maybe a lot of the benefit I feel is placebo effect, I don't know, and it doesn't really matter. I've never felt any ill-effects from taking them, and I only race those distances once or twice a year, so any effect on my overall metabolism is minimal. There's no downside to taking them.

At point points would you generally take the four gels?

I did the Paris marathon earlier this year and got fluid intake wrong looking or some pointers.

b.harte

I wasn't going to row in on this one as there are far more experienced people than I on here already. (warning - this might be a bit long winded - that'll be the greens)
I have started to switch my diet to a low carb / high fat type diet.
The change was gradual over the last year of so, but for the last 5 weeks I have been giving it more attention.
I decided to do this because I suffered horrible on a few occasions with energy highs and lows during long events, so I wanted more stability for the longer stuff i do, as I would like to go even longer - I don't automatically desire to get faster, only to feel less sh1t during.
The first and most difficult step for me was cutting out wheat / bread, found it really hard but noticed an almost immediate change - less sluggish. I did this about 18mths ago. The hardest thing was I loved my wraps and sambos - switched to making a wrap using large lettuce leaves / steamed cabbage leaves. (not as gack as it sounds).
I used to eat porridge every morning (at 06:30 and again at 10:30 / 11:00) with honey, this would fill me so I would then have a light salad lunch and a normal dinner around 17:30 / 18:00. I was always hungry again later in the evening.
I would usually snack on dried fruits and nut / seeds thinking these were a healthy option.

5 weeks ago I started to look into the type of foods I was eating, bought a digital scales and I now weigh my foods.
I have switched the early porridge for nuts/seeds with a little bit of honey to bind. I weight everything and record it (like this)

All nutrient data from:Nutrient DB

I replaced the 2nd porridge fix with boiled eggs and sliced or grilled tomatoes.

My plan is to try to keep the FAT:CARBS in a 2:1 ratio and eat more protein- no science behind this, other than it's easier to plan meals and select foods with this as a guide.
Total Kcal intake target is 1700-2000 a day depending on training load, I will eat on demand to satisfy my energy requirements, but try to spread the intake of 4 meals 300/300/600/600 with my last meal no later than 18:30 - no science, just suits wiht family life.
Full Fat local Milk and Proper local Butter
For the first 2 weeks I has weight loss (not the aim) after that my weight started to come back up and I am back to starting weight and maintaining it.
My initial impressions are mixed.
This diet / food choice is not easy to follow - I'm tired of eating nuts and I miss my fruit.:(
Planning a dinner for myself and Mrs B.Harte while considering the kids is a hassle, most days there will be 2 dinners and the stuff the kids eat look tempting.
On the plus side, I am now eating more fresh veg and salads and making my own dressing, soy-honey, lemon & vinegar are now staples.
The range of salads that I previously ignored is fantastic.
Fresh veg is the way to go.
Kale frozen and crushed then defrosted in water is nice with a light soy dressing.

Anyway, initially my energy levels dropped I was shattered by 16:30 and only after eating dinner did I feel normal again, but I had masses of energy later in the evening / night, which is handy for running after the kids go to bed.
It took about 3.5 weeks to stabilise but now I feel that I am more consistent during working hours, and I feel more alert, but this might be down to having a busy and interesting workload at the minute. I no longer get a slump at 16:30, but I still have energy late in the day.
I am sleeping better overall and wake up less tired - if that makes sense.
My running doesn't feel any different, but this is my winter project so only time will tell.

If I'm honest I think a lot of these type of diets are BS - hype - agendised etc. I'm a sceptic but I can see some merit it this for me at the minute - it may not suit everyone.
Also going back to the topic, I haven't used a gel in years - I believe that the only benefit of a large inrush of sugar is if you are going hard enough to use it instantly - ie at high heart rate, for the type of running I am interested in I rarely get my heart rate into that range.
I usually do my long runs on SAT/SUN on empty and have a monster feed afterwards - again mostly as everyone is up when I get back.

I think a sensible approach to any diet is a good thing, but even an agenda laden HF/LC / Palea etc diet is less harmful than the advertising that convinces people that you "must / need" to take gels and "Energy" drinks during exercise, it frightens me when I see so many people consuming them.


Sorry for the ramble.

RayCun

sydneybound wrote: »

At point points would you generally take the four gels?

I did the Paris marathon earlier this year and got fluid intake wrong looking or some pointers.

6, 12, 18, 21

sydneybound

RayCun wrote: »

6, 12, 18, 21

Good man thanks for the reply. Out of a mater of interest how much water did you take on in between the gels and at what mile markers?

I've done two marathons before and another not far away and felt I have ran on empty and refueled too late when I was already tired.

RayCun

sydneybound wrote: »

Good man thanks for the reply. Out of a mater of interest how much water did you take on in between the gels and at what mile markers?

I generally take a bottle at every station, which is usually about every 3 miles. Only drink a squirt or two, a bit more if I'm washing down a gel. Most of the water is either poured over me or thrown away

sydneybound

RayCun wrote: »

I generally take a bottle at every station, which is usually about every 3 miles. Only drink a squirt or two, a bit more if I'm washing down a gel. Most of the water is either poured over me or thrown away

Jeez I know every person does these things differently but I feel I really undrank during previous marathons. I think I tried to have water at every second stand but didn't even stick to it.

RayCun

sydneybound wrote: »

Jeez I know every person does these things differently but I feel I really undrank during previous marathons. I think I tried to have water at every second stand but didn't even stick to it.

I think most people overestimate how much water they need to drink in a race. It depends on your training, and how much you drink usually and in the days before the race, and how hot the day is... but I don't think you need to drink a lot.

viperlogic

sydneybound wrote: »

Jeez I know every person does these things differently but I feel I really undrank during previous marathons. I think I tried to have water at every second stand but didn't even stick to it.

Everyone is different and every race is different due to conditions on the day. At Amsterdam marathon I took two cups at every station and it still wasn't enough, was very humid that day, around 95%. Typically on a warm day, I sweat about 800ml an hour when going at MP, so I try to replace as much as I can but not to the point I need to do a toilet break.

RayCun

sydneybound wrote: »

I did the Paris marathon earlier this year and got fluid intake wrong looking or some pointers.

from your race report it looks like you went out too fast, why do you think fluid intake was the problem?

sydneybound

Yes I certainly did go out too quick! I always get carried away at the start of a marathon with all the excitement. Will try on work on that one.

It's just that I feel I didn't take on enough fluids until it was too late in Paris. It was a hot day and I was skipping stations for fun until late into the race when I was really struggling. I feel when I did finally take on fluid it was far too late and in big gulps rather than small amounts but regularly.

viperlogic

If cups are being provided rather than bottles then I would recommend walking each water station otherwise with cups it will all go up your nose or over you face unless you have practiced and mastered the drinking from cup while running technique.

RayCun

sydneybound wrote: »

It's just that I feel I didn't take on enough fluids until it was too late in Paris. It was a hot day and I was skipping stations for fun until late into the race when I was really struggling. I feel when I did finally take on fluid it was far too late and in big gulps rather than small amounts but regularly.

well, I wonder why you are fixating on the fluid intake side. You did two things wrong in the first half of the race -
a) you went too fast
b) you skipped water stations

Which do you think had a bigger effect on your race performance?
Why do you think that?

Clearlier

sydneybound wrote: »

Good man thanks for the reply. Out of a mater of interest how much water did you take on in between the gels and at what mile markers?

I've done two marathons before and another not far away and felt I have ran on empty and refueled too late when I was already tired.

Gels kick in very quickly. I've bonked twice, the first time was in a marathon - I got an instant boost and then 5 - 10 mins later was feeling normal again and the second time was on a long run. A friend I was running with gave me a small flapjack which kicked in after about 5 minutes.

Fueling too late in a marathon isn't going to have a huge impact on your time unless you're pushing your limits - most of us aren't even close. I'd consider looking elsewhere as to the source of any problems in those races.

Coach Ed

Hi Guys, a few points, please take these as some basic pointers from a professional & in the spirit they are meant - to stop you all from falling into some really basic holes which can ruin your love of running & life in general:

- Drop the Gels. Now. Don’t buy another one. You do not need them if you do the proper training the race rightly deserves, especially if you want to be healthy afterwards. Learn you race craft, learn to listen to your body, it knows best & tries to tell you what it needs all day every day listen to it, ignore it at your peril.

- To become a fat burning machine, not a fat storing machine, you first need to turn it on and use it. How? Well stop using you Carb engine first. How do I do that? Drastically reduce you Carb intake today. Everything, rice, bread, spuds, pasta, biscuits, drop the lot. Once you break the habit (give it the month at least) it will have a massive impact on your training and lifestyle in general - Sleep quality, speed of recovery, etc. Your body does not actually need Carbs to function; it can function very well on just Fat & Protein, both of which are essential for all tissue repairs. Carbs do have their place, but only when you have earned them after a training run, especially long runs. You already carry around enough fat to fuel 100+ hours of running at a moderate pace.
(Me: I have, say, 15% bodyfat 12750g, that’s 114750Kcals, if an hours run burns 750kcal/h, that’s 153 hours of fuel)

- Get a coach, seriously, don’t be that guy who reads the net and thinks he can cut corners/cheat and get away with it. Just don’t.

- Learn your craft as a runner.
To get good enough to run the distance, you need to Learn the skills of running:
If you are running for an hour you will/should be making over 10,000 foot strikes. Think of the toll that will take if you are doing it wrong, fancy runners will only put off the inevitability of injury. We are the only animal made for running on two limbs for long distances. Take the trouble to improve your skill level. If you think you don’t need to learn how to run, ask someone to video you as you run past them with your or their phone. Most are shocked at what you see, not the white Kenyan you thought, but some god awful head chaser.
Be strong mobile & strong enough to run effortlessly:
Most who run the marathon are just not strong enough, just look at the state of majority of the runners after DCM, completely hobbled. There is no excuse for that. Get up, move your feet hip distance apart and bring your butt down to you heels, why keeping your heels on the ground. Don’t bang your head when you fall backwards onto your back. If you cannot fold yourself into a full squat and be comfortable while down there you have a movement issue which needs to be worked on. Go join a gymnastics club or weightlifting club to learn to move properly and comfortably.

Then & only then, you can start thinking about adding the mileage to your training for your next marathon. When you do stick to the 80/20 split between Aerobic/Anaerobic work. Don’t know what is what, get a cheap HR monitor (€30 in Argos) and watch you HR. You don’t need to do a Vo2 test to find out all of your training Zones. Google karvonen method or the Maffettone Test to find out your approx zones. Over time you will need the HR less and less as you learn to listen to your body and understand what it is saying. It takes time, a lot of time on your feet and can’t really be rushed as there is a bit of trial and error built in. Back to do you want to cheat yourself or do you want to learn your craft properly?
Which marathon will you be ready for if you do all of the changes I have listed here? Well lets just say DCM 2016 will be doable, but only with extensive work & commitment starting now.

Please, don’t be one of those guys. Learn your craft, it’s a journey well worth travelling.

If anyone wants direction, give me a shout, I will point you in the right direction.
If anyone who thinks I’m full of BS, I’ll show you my references if you show me yours.

Ed

Coach Ed

Hi Guys, a few points, please take these as some basic pointers from a professional & in the spirit they are meant - to stop you all from falling into some really basic holes which can ruin your love of running & life in general:

- Drop the Gels. Now. Don’t buy another one. You do not need them if you do the proper training the race rightly deserves, especially if you want to be healthy afterwards. Learn you race craft, learn to listen to your body, it knows best & tries to tell you what it needs all day every day listen to it, ignore it at your peril.

- To become a fat burning machine, not a fat storing machine, you first need to turn it on and use it. How? Well stop using you Carb engine first. How do I do that? Drastically reduce you Carb intake today. Everything, rice, bread, spuds, pasta, biscuits, drop the lot. Once you break the habit (give it the month at least) it will have a massive impact on your training and lifestyle in general - Sleep quality, speed of recovery, etc. Your body does not actually need Carbs to function; it can function very well on just Fat & Protein, both of which are essential for all tissue repairs. Carbs do have their place, but only when you have earned them after a training run, especially long runs. You already carry around enough fat to fuel 100+ hours of running at a moderate pace.
(Me: I have, say, 15% bodyfat 12750g, that’s 114750Kcals, if an hours run burns 750kcal/h, that’s 153 hours of fuel)

- Get a coach, seriously, don’t be that guy who reads the net and thinks he can cut corners/cheat and get away with it. Just don’t.

- Learn your craft as a runner.
To get good enough to run the distance, you need to Learn the skills of running:
If you are running for an hour you will/should be making over 10,000 foot strikes. Think of the toll that will take if you are doing it wrong, fancy runners will only put off the inevitability of injury. We are the only animal made for running on two limbs for long distances. Take the trouble to improve your skill level. If you think you don’t need to learn how to run, ask someone to video you as you run past them with your or their phone. Most are shocked at what you see, not the white Kenyan you thought, but some god awful head chaser.

Be strong mobile & strong enough to run effortlessly:
Most who run the marathon are just not strong enough, just look at the state of majority of the runners after DCM, completely hobbled. There is no excuse for that. Get up, move your feet hip distance apart and bring your butt down to you heels, why keeping your heels on the ground. Don’t bang your head when you fall backwards onto your back. If you cannot fold yourself into a full squat and be comfortable while down there you have a movement issue which needs to be worked on. Go join a gymnastics club or weightlifting club to learn to move properly and comfortably.

Then & only then, you can start thinking about adding the mileage to your training for your next marathon. When you do stick to the 80/20 split between Aerobic/Anaerobic work. Don’t know what is what, get a cheap HR monitor (€30 in Argos) and watch you HR. You don’t need to do a Vo2 test to find out all of your training Zones. Google karvonen method or the Maffettone Test to find out your approx zones. Over time you will need the HR less and less as you learn to listen to your body and understand what it is saying. It takes time, a lot of time on your feet and can’t really be rushed as there is a bit of trial and error built in. Back to do you want to cheat yourself or do you want to learn your craft properly?
Which marathon will you be ready for if you do all of the changes I have listed here? Well lets just say DCM 2016 will be doable, but only with extensive work & commitment starting now.

Please, don’t be one of those guys. Learn your craft, it’s a journey well worth travelling.

If anyone wants direction, give me a shout, I will point you in the right direction.
If anyone who thinks I’m full of BS, I’ll show you my references if you show me yours.

Ed

Coach Ed

Sorry, didn't mean to post twice

Enduro

Just on the water comsumption... it's very very simple. We have evolved over millions of years with an excellent built in regulatory system which lets us know when we should drink. In a nutshell, drink when you're thirsty. If you're not thirsty then you don't need to drink.

The only time I ever need to drink on training runs is on 4+ hour runs in midsummer heat. I've used other runner's drinking dependencies against them to gain time/position in races (Same with eating, since that can be even more time consuming).

As for electrolytes... natural sources only. I can't remember taking any eloctrolyte tabs in the last decade.

I don't doubt that there is a placebo effect with gels. Some recent research has certainly pointed in that direction (in that the effect can be reporduced with something that tastes the same, and the effect is too fast to be the result of digestion). However, there is also a strong mental strenght gain to be taken from knowing that you're not dependant on someone providing you with fuel souces during a race, and that you will gain time (even a small amount) on those that are stuck with that dependancy.

tunguska

For me its a big red flag when a dietery regime advocates no carb/very low carb. Existing just on fat and protein.......thats just Atkins and he was a very unhealthy man.
Processed carbs are bad, everybody knows that. But giving up fruit and natural plants and grains.......you're missing out on so many nutrients and antioxidants that your body needs, especially after training.

Blue Steel

Blue Steel wrote: »

I'm thinking of doing the below found on the net. If anyone think it is no good please let me know.

I have a Garmin 620 with HRM (will it be accurate?)

-- start quote --
1. Be sure you're well rested, well hydrated, and well warmed up.

2. Run hard and fast for 2 to 3 minutes. Jog back to your starting point. Repeat two more times, running a little harder and faster each time. On the third and last repeat, pretend you're running an Olympic race.

3. Check your heart rate during and immediately after the last repeat. The highest number you see is your maximum heart rate (MHR).
-- end quote --

I did that and got 7 bpm above what the formula (220 - age) was giving me.

Well, tbh I wasn't running hard for 3mn.

I will do it again a few times to verify consistency.

Enduro

tunguska wrote: »

For me its a big red flag when a dietery regime advocates no carb/very low carb. Existing just on fat and protein.......thats just Atkins and he was a very unhealthy man.
Processed carbs are bad, everybody knows that. But giving up fruit and natural plants and grains.......you're missing out on so many nutrients and antioxidants that your body needs, especially after training.

It's far from "just Atkins". There is a huge amount of material out there from many different sources outlining the potential benifits of reducing carbs (E.g here's a good round-up of LC vs LF from a weightloss perspective, or here's a report on some of Tim Noakes et al's athletic related experiments in LF). It just happens that Atkins was on a good track. There are also plenty of people out there who have put these ideas into practice to good effect comptitively.

plodder

Eat as much protein as you want. Your body will only use what it needs and get rid of the rest. Regulate carbs to control body weight. If you want to lose weight, reduce your carbs. If you're losing weight but don't want to, then you should increase carbs in your diet. Most elite sports people need to eat lots of carbs or they would lose too much weight very quickly. That's not the case for most of us though.

tunguska

Enduro wrote: »

It's far from "just Atkins". There is a huge amount of material out there from many different sources outlining the potential benifits of reducing carbs (E.g here's a good round-up of LC vs LF from a weightloss perspective, or here's a report on some of Tim Noakes et al's athletic related experiments in LF). It just happens that Atkins was on a good track. There are also plenty of people out there who have put these ideas into practice to good effect comptitively.

I'm not even talking about competition and performance Enduro. I'm talking just about health. Ive no doubt that low carb = low body fat which is better for performance. But its whats going on inside of you as a result of a high protein diet (especially animal and dairy protein) that concerns me.
Have you read " The China study"? I highly recommend it.

Enduro

I haven't read the china study directly mainly because I've read enough about it to be convinced its not good science (for example here),

or another quote...

In almost every argument about vegan diets or animal foods, someone brings up The China Study.

This is a book that was written by biochemist and nutrition researcher T. Colin Campbell.

The book makes a case for animal foods (animal protein, in particular) being the main driver of killer diseases like heart disease and cancer.

The case is loosely supported with data from a massive epidemiological study called The China-Cornell-Oxford Project, along with a number of other observations and studies on rats.

Then he uses confusing terminology to make it seem like the rat studies using isolated proteins like casein have anything to do with diet and cancer in humans.

The book has been criticized by a number of people who have analyzed the findings:

Dr. Chris Masterjohn: What Dr. Campbell Won’t Tell You About The China Study
Denise Minger: The China Study – Fact or Fallacy
Dr. Michael Eades: The China Study vs the China study


The findings of The China Study have also been contradicted by various other studies, some of which are of a much higher methodological quality.

This includes a recent study from Asia… a study with 112,310 men and 184,411 women, showing that red meat consumption was associated with reduced risk of heart disease in men and reduced risk of cancer in women (30).

The China Study is NOT about nutrition science. It belongs in the science fiction section of the library.

tunguska

Enduro wrote: »

I haven't read the china study directly mainly because I've read enough about it to be convinced its not good science
...

I would read it before making a judgement. He goes into detail about studies that try to discredit the china study and the findings he and others have made over a lot of decades.
I mean its your call, personally I think the book makes a lot of sense but I Dont just accept what I read on blind faith. My intuition had me sceptical about animal and dairy protein long before I had even heard of the China study.