Oral dose, Injection or Pour-on

Count Mondego

Have never used pour-on, always dose or injection. Wouldn't mind doing cows going into the shed with Noromectin pour on as it does for lice as well and save me the hassle of wrestling with them. Seems to be conflicting evidence of the effectiveness of pour-on

Study of Canadian Bison that were injected Vs Pour on claiming it was just as effective if administered properly

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3078010/

Study from NZ claiming dosing was far better than either injecting or pour on

http://www.agresearch.co.nz/news/pages/news-item.aspx?News-id=12-11-19-01


What's your opinion on the effectiveness of Pour on?

_Brian

Used one this summer for worms/lice.
Thought it was good and I liked the fact that it was quite thin in texture, quite like alcohol the way it soaked in immediate. Can't remember name, was bright blue.
Previously used closamectin on housed cattle and was disappointed, it seemed to sit on the hair and not soak in well and didn't think it worked well.

severeoversteer

_Brian wrote: »

Used one this summer for worms/lice.
Thought it was good and I liked the fact that it was quite thin in texture, quite like alcohol the way it soaked in immediate. Can't remember name, was bright blue.
Previously used closamectin on housed cattle and was disappointed, it seemed to sit on the hair and not soak in well and didn't think it worked well.

probably most effective if you clip the cattles backs

Muckit

_Brian wrote: »

Used one this summer for worms/lice.
Thought it was good and I liked the fact that it was quite thin in texture, quite like alcohol the way it soaked in immediate. Can't remember name, was bright blue

Was it levacide? Never used it myself but heard puds on about it. Did you find it good?

_Brian

Muckit wrote: »

Was it levacide? Never used it myself but heard puds on about it. Did you find it good?

That may have even it, must look in cabinet tonight.
Yea, we reckon good control for worms/lice.

_Brian

severeoversteer wrote: »

probably most effective if you clip the cattles backs

No clippers here so it's easier to buy a product that doesn't need them.

severeoversteer

_Brian wrote: »

No clippers here so it's easier to buy a product that doesn't need them.

well I don't do it here

but neighbours who I would rate well ; do it and swear by it

_Brian

severeoversteer wrote: »

well I don't do it here

but neighbours who I would rate well ; do it and swear by it

yea I could see it making a big difference..
We dont use any product regularly anyway, rotate from drenches to injection to pour-on.

severeoversteer

_Brian wrote: »

yea I could see it making a big difference..
We dont use any product regularly anyway, rotate from drenches to injection to pour-on.

mostly injections here aswell, they are cheaper than pour on

jfh

Used levacide on the weanlings yesterday. First time I've seen gloves included in the box with pour on, although it did seem strong

towzer2010

_Brian wrote: »

Previously used closamectin on housed cattle and was disappointed, it seemed to sit on the hair and not soak in well and didn't think it worked well.

I think someone on here mentioned before that the residue after closamectin is the carrier used for the fluke part of the dose.

I use normectin pour on for calves and a drench if needed after a few weeks. Cows all get an oral drench except for 4 or 5 cows that would kill you. They get closamectin pour on.

Never use injections but the oral drench works better than the pour on I think.

greysides

jfh wrote: »

Used levacide on the weanlings yesterday. First time I've seen gloves included in the box with pour on, although it did seem strong

Depending on what you were targeting and your future intentions..... Levacide would not count as a winter dose.

Levacide Injection is a broad spectrum anthelmintic for use in the
treatment and control of nematode infections in cattle and sheep.
Levacide Injection should be used in cases of parasitic
gastroenteritis and lungworm caused by the following organisms:
Lungworms: Dictyocaulus spp
Trichostrongylides: Trichostrongylus spp. Cooperia spp.
Ostertagia spp. (except inhibited Ostertagia larvae in cattle)
Haemonchus spp. Nematodirus spp.
Strongyles: Bunostomum spp. Oesophagostomum spp.
Chabertia spp.

Those inhibited larvae are a very important target of a true winter dose.

Farmer Pudsey

Levacide is a superb dose for weanlings. As they can have heavy burdens of worms it paralysis the worm rather than killing them straight off. This allow the calf/weanling to cough out worms over 2-3 days rather than the worms dying in the stomach and lungs causing issues there.

Disadvantage is that it will only kill about 80% of worms and that some worms are resistant. So 2-4 weeks later depending on strenght or condition of weanlings do them again with an ivermectin injection.

limo_100

lads thinking off using fasinex super or 240 this year havnt used it in years. I no they have to be in the shed for two weeks to get a total kill of fluke. does anyone no how many weeks they have to be to kill all the worms with fasinex??

greysides

Fasinex is only a flukicide on its own. Doesn't hit worms.

Farrell

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Levacide is a superb dose for weanlings. As they can have heavy burdens of worms it paralysis the worm rather than killing them straight off. This allow the calf/weanling to cough out worms over 2-3 days rather than the worms dying in the stomach and lungs causing issues there.

Disadvantage is that it will only kill about 80% of worms and that some worms are resistant. So 2-4 weeks later depending on strenght or condition of weanlings do them again with an ivermectin injection.

Could this procedure be done to cows too?
If the first vdose was done 3-4 weeks after housing wouldvit not give a better kill the first hit?

degetme

What product would be suitable for internal and external parisates for dry dairy cows?
Used cycediten pour on last year. Found it good but very expensive.

limo_100

the active ingredients in fasinex super is Triclabendazole, which does fluke and Levamisole Hydrochloride which treats worms, there the ingredients listed on the glanbia website maybe glanbia have it wrong??

greysides

As the grazing year peaks and heads towards autumn an ever-increasing percentage of the stomach worm larvae that are ingested become time bombs. Instead of doing what stomach worms are expected to do, these terrorists embed themselves in the wall of the gut and become sleepers. If in vast numbers their presence can cause scour over the winter plus the associated ill-thrift. More usually they just bide their time till the clocks are about to change back and then activate to become regular worms and do regular worm mischief.

Levamisole as a housing dose will not touch them.

The white doses and avermectin type doses will.

greysides

limo_100 wrote: »

the active ingredients in fasinex super is Triclabendazole, which does fluke and Levamisole Hydrochloride which treats worms, there the ingredients listed on the glanbia website maybe glanbia have it wrong??

Sorry, misread the post, didn't cop the 'Super' bit. You can read my comment on levamisole above.

There are some useful combination doses on the market now but not too long ago (and thus still available) some of the combo's were more ground-breaking in their marketing than in their suitability for what was needed.

degetme

greysides wrote: »

As the grazing year peaks and heads towards autumn an ever-increasing percentage of the stomach worm larvae that are ingested become time bombs. Instead of doing what stomach worms are expected to do, these terrorists embed themselves in the wall of the gut and become sleepers. If in vast numbers their presence can cause scour over the winter plus the associated ill-thrift. More usually they just bide their time till the clocks are about to change back and then activate to become regular worms and do regular worm mischief.

Levamisole as a housing dose will not touch them.

The white doses and avermectin type doses will.

Is this ostergai type 2 /inabitted ostergarai that your making reference too?

greysides

degetme wrote: »

Is this ostertagia type 2 /inhibited ostertagia that your making reference too?

A few different names for them but yes they are one and the same.

limo_100

greysides wrote: »

As the grazing year peaks and heads towards autumn an ever-increasing percentage of the stomach worm larvae that are ingested become time bombs. Instead of doing what stomach worms are expected to do, these terrorists embed themselves in the wall of the gut and become sleepers. If in vast numbers their presence can cause scour over the winter plus the associated ill-thrift. More usually they just bide their time till the clocks are about to change back and then activate to become regular worms and do regular worm mischief.

Levamisole as a housing dose will not touch them.

The white doses and avermectin type doses will.

so if was was to give all the younger stock a shot of ivomac at 2-3 weeks after housing would i have to do them a month later again?

greysides

limo_100 wrote: »

so if was was to give all the younger stock a shot of ivomac at 2-3 weeks after housing would i have to do them a month later again?

No, and because of its persistence you could even do them 2-3 weeks prior to housing and not have to do them at housing.

limo_100

greysides wrote: »

No, and because of its persistence you could even do them 2-3 weeks prior to housing and not have to do them at housing.

so what would you recommend for winter dose as in when to do them etc and whats best to use??

greysides

limo_100 wrote: »

so what would you recommend for winter dose as in when to do them etc and whats best to use??

Lots of choice, as long as it doesn't involve levamisole.

As mentioned the avermectins could be used a little before a determined housing time.

White doses could be used at housing, or just after.

Avermectins will do a bit to counter lice. You'd need to read the blurb carefully to see just how well they are expected to hit.

At one point Ivomec claimed to kill all sucking lice but only claimed to reduce biting lice. This is due to the way the lice get their blood meal. One way contains more ingredient than the other.

Datasheet:

Ivomec Super Injection for Cattle may also be used as an aid in the control of biting lice (Damalinia bovis) and the mange
mite Chorioptes bovis, but complete elimination may not occur.

The Pour-On version talks about 'effective control'.


White doses could be used with a separate lice dressing.

I don't think there is any one product that's effective for the full winter against lice.


Fluke: Depends on how soon after housing you want to do them... and costs. That will also need the level of threat factored in.

If you can wait 6 weeks then Trodax/Deldrax or Flukanide, Flukiver will work fine. Or you can do them immediately on housing but then need to repeat 6 weeks later to get what you missed.

Zanil doesn't warrant mention as a fluke dose IMO. Great in its day but superseded now.
Albex is a fine worm dose but unless you're restricted to using it then I wouldn't recommend it as a fluke dose.

Fasinex two weeks after housing is effective. No repeat needed.


With all these doses check the packaging for specifics before using as I'm generalising a bit.

The dominant use of the avermectin type doses concerns me with regard to the development of resistance. Winter dosing might be a good time to break with them.

Deepsouthwest

greysides wrote: »

Lots of choice, as long as it doesn't involve levamisole.

As mentioned the avermectins could be used a little before a determined housing time.

White doses could be used at housing, or just after.

Avermectins will do a bit to counter lice. You'd need to read the blurb carefully to see just how well they are expected to hit.

At one point Ivomec claimed to kill all sucking lice but only claimed to reduce biting lice. This is due to the way the lice get their blood meal. One way contains more ingredient than the other.

Datasheet:
The Pour-On version talks about 'effective control'.


White doses could be used with a separate lice dressing.

I don't think there is any one product that's effective for the full winter against lice.


Fluke: Depends on how soon after housing you want to do them... and costs. That will also need the level of threat factored in.

If you can wait 6 weeks then Trodax/Deldrax or Flukanide, Flukiver will work fine. Or you can do them immediately on housing but then need to repeat 6 weeks later to get what you missed.

Zanil doesn't warrant mention as a fluke dose IMO. Great in its day but superseded now.
Albex is a fine worm dose but unless you're restricted to using it then I wouldn't recommend it as a fluke dose.

Fasinex two weeks after housing is effective. No repeat needed.


With all these doses check the packaging for specifics before using as I'm generalising a bit.

The dominant use of the avermectin type doses concerns me with regard to the development of resistance. Winter dosing might be a good time to break with them.

What about rumen fluke? Still showing up in a lot of dung samples according to my discussion group

greysides

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

What about rumen fluke? Still showing up in a lot of dung samples according to my discussion group

Zanil is the recommended dose of them.

Rumen fluke were known about before their recent popularity. They were considered relatively harmless parasites. Not of veterinary concern. The weather conditions that favoured them increased their numbers and the exposure of cattle to them. Once outside of what could be tolerated problems were seen. Similar one-off problems probably occurred sporadically before then. I heard previously, over the years, of problems of scour being cured by Zanil in circumstances where fluke couldn't have been the cause. You'd be left wondering about how the pieces fitted together logically. Well, those sporadic problems were quite likely rare cases of ruminal fluke infestation.

This year, one of the driest in living memory, coming after a previous year of much the same, must surely be a year where fluke problems must be at their lowest possible levels. I'm not seeing much fluke in lamb livers yet. I wouldn't expect ruminal fluke to cause much in the way of clinical cases this year.

Detection is by faecal egg count. Eggs are laid by adults. Adults are non-pathogenic. I'm not sure how well you can tie egg levels from a particular sample to ruminal fluke levels in the animal.

This year, of all years, I'd be inclined to ignore them until some indication of a problem arose.

Bodacious

I dosed all the cows there Monday


Tramazole 10%
(cheap fluke and worm white drench containing Albendazole) 100ml down the hatch


12ml-14ml of turbomec behind the shoulder (ivermectin based product) for worms/lice etc


outwinter them so next dose they get now will be feb/ march .. when I will be giving them the allsure boluses 6 weeks prior to calving

Farmer Pudsey

Avermectins are ok in adult and bucket fed cattle in general. However suckler weanling present another problem. Often these animals are never dosed during the summer and being young can carry large infections. The issue is with lung worm in particular.

I would not dose these with avermctins straight off. The massive kill of worms leads to peunomia in particular when added to the pressure of weaning and sale. Especiall if sold as is happening this year straight off the cows. Even bucket fed calves can be under pressure with worm burden this time of year.

A two stage treatment using an oral dose( stressful on man and beast) or levicide pour on. This will kill the worms slowly and allow animal to cough out the lung worms. 2-4 weeks after use your avermectin to clean up rest of worms.

My understanding of pour-on V Injection and lice is that pour on is supposed to kill both sucking and biting live while injection kills sucking only I think. However I am reluctant to use pour on due to cost and worrk over effectiveness.

farawaygrass

What about ivomec super injection? Bought it there yesterday and was going to wait until they were housed 3 weeks and then do all cows and weanlings. Weanlings are kept for the winter here