Performance - Related Pay???

evolving_doors

marienbad wrote: »

Not so, I am just advocating a principle - nothing more or less .

Fair enough, if this is too complex for you to discuss then perhaps it's the wrong forum to be in. It's all well and good to suggest that teachers aren't ready to accept the principle, but if you refuse to put forth any possible model or support any of the models mentioned then it's just flaming for the sake of it. Saying that there's 'science' and copious amounts of research out there also shows that you do not wish to engage in discussion... as per previous 'contributions' to this forum.

Member has been banned.

smcgiff

Is automatic pay increase because you've stayed in your job another year ideal? To my mind it's not. It's accepted practice in teaching and some other jobs and taken for granted.

Why do teachers think their performance is not measurable?

There are many ways in which performance can be measured.

1. What Continuous professional education has the teacher undertaken?
2. How many sick days has the teacher taken in the last year.
3. How has their manager assessed their work - the principal in this case. Is this a shocking thought? A lot of other employees are graded by their managers.

And that's before even looking at children's test results.

If that were to be considered then it would be improvements in grades (possibly from previous years) that matter rather than actual grades achieved.

dambarude

smcgiff wrote: »

2. How many sick days has the teacher taken in the last year.

Why on earth would that be a good indicator of performance?

smcgiff

dambarude wrote: »

Why on earth would that be a good indicator of performance?

LOL

Dave0301

smcgiff wrote: »

LOL

So if someone falls ill for very valid reasons, and this can be proven via a doctor's cert, they should still have a black mark put against their name?

Also your response "LOL"........classy way to engage in a discussion.

SM746

marienbad wrote: »

I wouldn't disagree with any of that , and the fact that you know bad teachers means you are already assessing your colleagues . How do you do that ?

I'm aware the poster has been banned but hopefully they will see this:
I am not assessing my teachers; I'm offering observations on the standards I demand of myself. For all I know maybe I'm the bad teacher and they're the good ones; in the absence of the criteria the poster wouldn't provide it's impossible to judge.

Anyway hopefully the poster returns after his ban having consulted a dictionary on the meaning behind the word discussion and begins to offer / discuss opinions.

As I said before; results based pay would be a nightmare to try and implement fairly. However I do feel this is a topic we need to delve I into and consider performance related measures that we could use to get our next Increment, etc.
I do feel the first starting point should be compulsory CPD; I'll hold my hands up that I could do a lot better in this area. The new TC consultation process at the moment regarding making this compulsory in a fee years is a good starting point.

smcgiff

Dave0301 wrote: »

So if someone falls ill for very valid reasons, and this can be proven via a doctor's cert, they should still have a black mark put against their name?

Also your response "LOL"........classy way to engage in a discussion.

That was my genuine response.

Are you aware that attendance is a general problem in work and that teachers should be similarly appraised.

Of course what I'm talking about is self certified leave. See tbe DES circular re self certified leave. Certified leave of itself is a problem because it's all too easy to get a doctor to give a cert. But, that's the system in place.


Also, you'll find that it is used as a measure in other areas, and including education in other jurisdictions. It's frankly laughable for it not to be considered. Hence the genuine LOL reaction.

I assume the other suggestions are acceptable as they haven't been objected to.

byhookorbycrook

Children's results? WHAT results? I work with SEN children so where does that leave me? Why must we insist on aping failed systems like those in the US and England?

smcgiff

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Children's results? WHAT results? I work with SEN children so where does that leave me? Why must we insist on aping failed systems like those in the US and England?

Leave you? The only arbiter of whether the children in your care are getting a good education or that you may need help.

Are you really saying there's no evaluation to see how your pupils are progressing from year to year?

Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it's beyond solution.

byhookorbycrook

But how do you evaluate a teacher when the child is on the ASD spectrum? Severe dyslexia? Dyspraxia? We had a WSE (whole school inspection) last year and the SEN team got great praise . The whole thing was a tick the box exercise, though.

smcgiff

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

But how do you evaluate a teacher when the child is on the ASD spectrum? Severe dyslexia? Dyspraxia? We had a WSE (whole school inspection) last year and the SEN team got great praise . The whole thing was a tick the box exercise, though.

I'm not sure what the value of a WSE is. There's a couple of week's advance notice, the principal has a heart attack and keeps everyone back for a meeting to ensure everyone gets their paperwork up to date and has excellent lesson plans prepared for the day in question.

I imagine SEN pupils will improve over the years of education. I think it should be possible to document that.

For anyone that thinks the teaching profession is not assessable, can they tell me any other job that cannot be assessed?

evolving_doors

smcgiff wrote: »

I'm not sure what the value of a WSE is. There's a couple of week's advance notice, the principal has a heart attack and keeps everyone back for a meeting to ensure everyone gets their paperwork up to date and has excellent lesson plans prepared for the day in question.

I imagine SEN pupils will improve over the years of education. I think it should be possible to document that.

For anyone that thinks the teaching profession is not assessable, can they tell me any other job that cannot be assessed?

You have to draw a distinction between Job and Professions in the public service though...

Dentists, Doctors, Nurses, social workers... how is their performance assessed?

For anyone that thinks the teaching profession is assessable, could you state exactly how it can be done...

smcgiff wrote: »

1. What Continuous professional education has the teacher undertaken?

Could you suggest how this could be linked to how a teacher performs in their classroom. Now I'm not saying for a moment that theory doesn't inform practice but you might be quite surprised to note that most of the teachers I know have undertaken further studies to masters level (of their own volition) whilst in the job (about 85% of our staff have at least a masters degree). The CPD proposed by the TC is ..what.. 5 days!!! You can be guaranteed that if CPD is linked to performance related pay it'll be a tokenistic 5 days box ticking exercise.

smcgiff wrote: »

2. How many sick days has the teacher taken in the last year.

Could you provide a link to this DES self certified circular... as you may be aware there are many circulars.

smcgiff wrote: »

3. How has their manager assessed their work - the principal in this case. Is this a shocking thought? A lot of other employees are graded by their managers.

Leaving aside the problems associated with measuring 'improvements in grades' (see posts #10 #11 #19 #27 #32 if you'd care to take issue with those)... how would you propose that the manager assess their work?
Classroom observations! Our principal would have well over 30 classes to go to, just for one observation.. do they get a complete picture of a teachers abilities from 1 observation?).

Indeed a lot of other employees are graded by their managers... could you possibly outline one example that could be applied to education?

Just because something is difficult, does it mean that a 'solution' needs to be sought. Why is there a great need to measure everything that a teacher does. It's not bloody rocket science.. if you want improvements in education the reduce the class sizes... no matter how Mr Chips you are you can;t just pack em in and expect 'good performance'.

smcgiff

Armelodie wrote: »

You have to draw a distinction between Job and Professions in the public service though...

Dentists, Doctors, Nurses, social workers... how is their performance assessed?

Their case files are peer reviewed. Also, guess what happens when a complaint against a doctor or nurse is made. The words fine tooth comb come to mind.

Armelodie wrote: »

For anyone that thinks the teaching profession is assessable, could you state exactly how it can be done...

I've listed 4, some of which you've discussed below.

Armelodie wrote: »

Could you suggest how this could be linked to how a teacher performs in their classroom. Now I'm not saying for a moment that theory doesn't inform practice but you might be quite surprised to note that most of the teachers I know have undertaken further studies to masters level (of their own volition) whilst in the job (about 85% of our staff have at least a masters degree). The CPD proposed by the TC is ..what.. 5 days!!! You can be guaranteed that if CPD is linked to performance related pay it'll be a tokenistic 5 days box ticking exercise.


Could you provide a link to this DES self certified circular... as you may be aware there are many circulars.

I'm surprised this is even asked. How did a teacher achieve their H Dip in the first place? They are assessed through the dreaded TP. This should provide the basis of extra training for teachers if necessary.

Re the tokenistic box ticking, do you have no faith in the education system?

This is similar to the Circular I had in mind, http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0043_2012.pdf

So, who takes all seven of their Duvet days?

Armelodie wrote: »

Indeed a lot of other employees are graded by their managers... could you possibly outline one example that could be applied to education?

As discussed above, direct observation by the principal or an external body similar to those that assess trainee teachers.

Armelodie wrote: »

Just because something is difficult, does it mean that a 'solution' needs to be sought. Why is there a great need to measure everything that a teacher does. It's not bloody rocket science.. if you want improvements in education the reduce the class sizes... no matter how Mr Chips you are you can;t just pack em in and expect 'good performance'.

Is the quality of the teacher so unimportant in your opinion? There are some bad accountants, lawyers or doctors and you'll see them struck off/reprimanded each month (after due process) in their professional magazines.

Is the teaching profession important enough to merit such professional oversight?

amacca

smcgiff wrote: »

There are some bad accountants, lawyers or doctors and you'll see them struck off/reprimanded each month (after due process) in their professional magazines.

I'd like to say from the outset that I'm not against performance review……. (with the caveat that its truly fair and workable in terms of the amount of time that would have to be put into it and that it doesn't degenerate into a box ticking paper exercise or an excuse not to pay fair rates for what is a demanding job in lots of ways etc etc)

However, I know of at least two of what I would call poor solicitors that offered very poor advice to members of my family and I don't see them being struck of the register following complaint….

The only guys I see being struck off in the legal profession are the guys who really and truly "take the piss" for want of a better phrase……….the kind of characters who take loans out fraudulently using properties owned by their clients as collateral or end up mysteriously owning their dead clients properties etc

I'd be deeply afraid that if performance related pay is brought in it will degenerate into something that won't help student outcomes at all or teacher outcomes …thats if its not flawed from the start…..I do truly think its a very tricky thing to do correctly in teaching and that the job does stand apart at least in that respect……you can see how its done across the water and the inconsistencies it causes there (I'm sure the powers that be think thats a great idea but will eventually be forced into a rethink)….I'd even be afraid it wouldn't save money either as it would probably introduce another layer of administration/box ticking in the system too

smcgiff

amacca wrote: »

I'd like to say from the outset that I'm not against performance review……. (with the caveat that its truly fair and workable in terms of the amount of time that would have to be put into it and that it doesn't degenerate into a box ticking paper exercise or an excuse not to pay fair rates for what is a demanding job in lots of ways etc etc)

However, I know of at least two of what I would call poor solicitors that offered very poor advice to members of my family and I don't see them being struck of the register following complaint….

The only guys I see being struck off in the legal profession are the guys who really and truly "take the piss" for want of a better word……….the guys who take loans out fraudulently using properties owned by their clients as collateral or end up mysteriously owning their dead clients properties etc

You're describing incompetence versus fraud. I don't think being struck off for making a mistake would be the right outcome. However, if they were at a financial disadvantage they should have been able to claim off their solicitor's through their professional indemnity insurance.

Likewise if a teacher made a factual mistake in an observed lesson it would not be grounds for dismissal, but for possible CPD.

I would imagine the law society would have taken the solicitors to task, even if they were not struck off. Similarly they would be punished by higher premiums if compensation were paid.

#15

I have looked into this issue before and performance related pay is almost worthless if the aim is to increase student achievement or to ''raise test scores''.

I am copying a post I made in another forum at that time.

#15 wrote:

The US is testing merit pay in schools and the evidence shows that it has not worked, and is unlikely to work in the future.

Top ranked Schools of Education in the US such Peabody at Vanderbilt have carried out the most detailed research on merit pay.

Rewarding teachers with bonus pay, does not raise student test scores, according to a new study issued today by the National Center on Performance Incentives at Vanderbilt University’s Peabody College of education and human development in partnership with the RAND Corporation.

This and other findings from a three-year experiment – the first scientific study of performance pay ever conducted in the United States – were released at a conference on evaluating and rewarding educator effectiveness hosted by the National Center on Performance Incentives at Vanderbilt.

“We tested the most basic and foundational question related to performance incentives — Does bonus pay alone improve student outcomes? – and we found that it does not,” Matthew Springer, executive director of the National Center on Performance Incentives, said

Mathematica Policy Research Group is halfway through a merit pay trial in the Chicago Public School System and the most recent findings said

We compared these 16 schools as a group to a carefully matched group of comparison schools and found that test score growth was not measurably better, nor were there detectable impacts on the rates at which teachers were retained in the school or in the district. The finding of no significant impacts is robust to the use of different samples and methods.

We compared these 16 schools as a group to a carefully matched group of comparison schools and found that test score growth was not measurably better, nor were there detectable impacts on the rates at which teachers were retained in the school or in the district. The finding of no significant impacts is robust to the use of different samples and methods.

Roland Fryer, from Harvard's Department of Economics led another trial in New York City schools.

He found "no evidence that teacher incentives increase student performance, attendance or graduation". On the contrary, Fryer reported that teacher incentives may actually decrease student achievement, especially in larger schools

The most significant report by far though, is the first one that I cited.

Diane Ravitch has also wrote quite a bit on this issue. She is an education professor at NYU and was an assistant secretary of education in George H.W. Bush's administration.

One of the signature issues of businesspeople and conservative Republicans for the past 30 years has been merit pay. They believe in competition, and they believe that financial rewards can be used to incentivize better performance, so it seems natural for them to conclude that merit pay or performance pay would incentivize teachers to produce better results.
Few people realize that merit pay schemes have been tried again and again since the 1920s.

Belief in them waxes and wanes, but the results have never been robust.

amacca

smcgiff wrote: »

You're describing incompetence versus fraud. I don't think being struck off for making a mistake would be the right outcome. However, if they were at a financial disadvantage they should have been able to claim off their solicitor's through their professional indemnity insurance.

everything seems to be very cut and dried with you….its not that simple, advice was given in one instance which resulted in not enough stamps for pension - i.e: negative consequences were well down the road from the consultation….how do you even go about proving solicitor said x 10plus years ago without a recording or transcript or having it in writing…….id be willing to bet there are levels of incompetence in most professions no amount of performance management would solve….

smcgiff wrote: »

Likewise if a teacher made a factual mistake in an observed lesson it would not be grounds for dismissal, but for possible CPD.

depends on the mistake imo and conditions it occurred under

smcgiff wrote: »

I would imagine the law society would have taken the solicitors to task, even if they were not struck off. Similarly they would be punished by higher premiums if compensation were paid.

You'd imagine wrong methinks …see above, theres plenty of them out there + accountants that like using pressure tactics to hold on to business and doctors that routinely prescribe antibiotics for viral infections without there being a need to fight secondary bacterial infections along with bendy solicitors etc etc

smcgiff

amacca wrote: »

everything seems to be very cut and dried with you….its not that simple, advice was given in one instance which resulted in not enough stamps for pension - i.e: negative consequences were well down the road from the consultation….how do you even go about proving solicitor said x 10plus years ago without a recording or transcript or having it in writing…….id be willing to bet there are levels of incompetence in most professions no amount of performance management would solve….



depends on the mistake imo and conditions it occurred under



You'd imagine wrong methinks …see above, theres plenty of them out there + accountants that like using pressure tactics to hold on to business and doctors that routinely prescribe antibiotics for viral infections without there being a need to fight secondary bacterial infections along with bendy solicitors etc etc

On the contrary, you're the one that seems to be cut and dry.

It looks like the law society had nothing to deal with. Your argument to my mind is irrelevant. Apart from your anecdote there are plenty of cases where solicitors are brought to task and it is why such professions have professional indemnity insurance.

Edit - Just realised something. Why were they getting financial advice from a solicitor?!?

smcgiff

#15 wrote: »

I have looked into this issue before and performance related pay is almost worthless if the aim is to increase student achievement or to ''raise test scores''.

I am copying a post I made in another forum at that time.

“We tested the most basic and foundational question related to performance incentives — Does bonus pay alone improve student outcomes? "

You can see the gaping hole in that argument can't you.

From what you've listed it doesn't appear to answer WHY it felt performance wasn't improved, which would be interesting.

However, it could also be the case that a student's grades/performance (as this seems to be what this study was looking into) remaining consistent and not deteriorating could be seen as a good performance by a teacher.

The studies mentioned seem to expect teachers to improve students ability, we know this would be extremely difficult and shouldn't be the basis of assessment.

amacca

smcgiff wrote: »

On the contrary, you're the one that seems to be cut and dry.

not sure where you're getting that from…your bolded sections don't really help?

smcgiff wrote: »

It looks like the law society had nothing to deal with. Your argument to my mind is irrelevant. Apart from your anecdote there are plenty of cases where solicitors are brought to task and it is why such professions have professional indemnity insurance.

thats exactly my point…despite gross incompetence (to my mind) there was probably nothing they could do…kind of puts a damper on your argument.

smcgiff wrote: »

Edit - Just realised something. Why were they getting financial advice from a solicitor?!?

it was legal advice…..ie: what were the rules/regulations/laws governing conditions and eligibility! is that not within the remit of a solicitor?

smcgiff

amacca wrote: »

thats exactly my point…despite gross incompetence (to my mind) there was probably nothing they could do…kind of puts a damper on your argument.

Only in your anecdote. The legal, medicine and accounting professions (and many others) are highly regulated and a lot of cases get into the media, many more are reported in the related media. Going down the road of comparing the regulation of the education and other professional bodies REALLY isn't helping you.

amacca wrote: »

it was legal advice…..ie: what were the rules/regulations/laws governing conditions and eligibility! is that not within the remit of a solicitor?

I'm not a solicitor, but I would never have considered them being experts on financial products.

Calculation of stamps would be in the remit of a taxation consultant/accountant. Overall for pensions it would be best to discuss with a CFA.

evolving_doors

smcgiff wrote: »

Their case files are peer reviewed.

And they get a pay increase on this basis????

smcgiff wrote: »

Also, guess what happens when a complaint against a doctor or nurse is made. The words fine tooth comb come to mind.

You mention fine tooth comb ... is this for all complaints made to the medical council? I would assume the nature of the complaint is taken into account... i.e. "the doctor was a little bit rude towards a patient"... full investigation by the medical council ensues .. I think not. Similarly for teachers, the nature of the complaint is taken into account by the teaching council/school.

BTW, This is irrelevant to the discussion of performance related pay. Unless you are suggesting of course that if a complaint is made and upheld then the doctor's pay is decreased!!!

smcgiff wrote: »

I'm surprised this is even asked. How did a teacher achieve their H Dip in the first place? They are assessed through the dreaded TP. This should provide the basis of extra training for teachers if necessary.

So therefore you are suggesting that the principal undertakes at least 4 observations per year to be in line with HDip practice!! I'd like to see you suggest that my principal...

"Ah sorry Mr. Principal,,, you have to do...

• 160 observations on your staff this year
• and the associated paperwork...
• and don;t forget the training required to ensure you are qualified to make these judgements,
• and then deal with the appeals process
• and negative sentiment created amongst the staff because of accusations of favoritism."

What if the Principal is happy with the quality of his staff!!! That's a hell of a lot of extra work for a lot of unnecessary paperwork.

smcgiff wrote: »

Re the tokenistic box ticking, do you have no faith in the education system?

Yes I actully have some faith in the education system and the professionalism of teachers as things stand at the moment. What I don't have faith in is the rabble and politicians who have absolutely no clue about the education system (apart from being qualified in 'gone to school once'). As plenty of teachers have commented here, look to the UK.

smcgiff wrote: »

This is similar to the Circular I had in mind, http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0043_2012.pdf

So that's your trump card there “seven days self-certified paid sick leave be granted over a rolling two year period”.
Wow,,, or should i say 'LOL, ROTFL,LMAO'... Obviously the teaching profession is rife with people being sick less than 4 times in a year. I don;t know about your knowledge of teaching but when I miss out days I do actually have to make up the time in order to get the course finished. And what's worse is the amount of teachers I see coming in sick because they don;t want their students to miss out. Duvet days!!! if you are a teacher taking duvet days you really are setting yourself up for a fall.

See what happened in the UK HERE) or (HERE)with the introduction of performance related pay and having to justify everything with tonnes of unnecessary paperwork.

"The vast majority of teachers, sometimes unwisely, go into school, even though they may be ill, because of their commitment to the children.
'Unfortunately, too much stress is endemic to the job and it is the responsibility of not only the Government but the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats to explore ways of reducing the excessive numbers of initiatives faced weekly by schools.'
Despite record education spending under Labour, teaching vacancies have risen by a quarter in the past year - with four in ten new teachers quitting within a year. Critics say they are weighed down with too many initiatives, too much form-filling and too much bad behaviour"

BTW are you happy for me to undertake less teaching contact hours to incorporate all this paperwork That will ensue if we follow the UK model.... and still pay me the same despite having to employ extra teachers to make up the time lost.

smcgiff wrote: »

So, who takes all seven of their Duvet days?

I don;t know who does maybe you could provide some statistics as to those who take self-certified sick leave and are actually 'not sick'

Anyway.. how is this related to performance related pay. If you are sick for four days in the year you dont get a pay increase!!

Is that it?

smcgiff wrote: »

Is the quality of the teacher so unimportant in your opinion? There are some bad accountants, lawyers or doctors and you'll see them struck off/reprimanded each month (after due process) in their professional magazines.

Is the teaching profession important enough to merit such professional oversight?

It's not the 'principal' of the thing but how it's done if it is to be done... You are very scant on the actual 'how' part. This is what I have concerns about as I see the mess that has been created in the UK just to appease the rabble.

amacca

smcgiff wrote: »

Only in your anecdote. The legal, medicine and accounting professions (and many others) are highly regulated and a lot of cases get into the media, many more are reported in the related media. Going down the road of comparing the regulation of the education and other professional bodies REALLY isn't helping you.

I didn't go down that road, you did………..I'm simply responding to an implication in your posts that the regulation in those professions weeds out incompetence to a greater degree than the teaching profession

I find that implication hard to swallow given personal experience and the amount of solicitors that actually end up ejected from the profession/put on the bold list by the law society

I don't think your argument is helping you but I suppose well have to agree to disagree:)

smcgiff wrote: »

I'm not a solicitor, but I would never have considered them being experts on financial products.

Calculation of stamps would be in the remit of a taxation consultant/accountant. Overall for pensions it would be best to discuss with a CFA.

I wouldn't consider them to be experts on financial products either except It wasn't a product offered by a business….state pension therefore governed by what I presume would be the laws of the land….

just after asking dad about it, he said he also got bad advice from an accountant about the pension thing…..he thinks the guy wanted to encourage him even sell some of his stamps to a "preferred client" - then again he likes a good conspiracy theory my dad

smcgiff

Armelodie wrote: »

And they get a pay increase on this basis????

It was mentioned that those professions were not assessed. This thread is the one discussing performance related pay for teachers. And up to now it was proposed that it was not possible to assess teachers, that they were different.

Armelodie wrote: »

You mention fine tooth comb ... is this for all complaints made to the medical council? I would assume the nature of the complaint is taken into account... i.e. "the doctor was a little bit rude towards a patient"... full investigation by the medical council ensues .. I think not. Similarly for teachers, the nature of the complaint is taken into account by the teaching council/school.

BTW, This is irrelevant to the discussion of performance related pay. Unless you are suggesting of course that if a complaint is made and upheld then the doctor's pay is decreased!!!

You know full well the implications for doctors if complaints are upheld. It can mean anything up to being struck off. But, again that post relates back to the belief that it is impossible for teachers to be assessed. Other professions are and so can teachers.

Armelodie wrote: »

So therefore you are suggesting that the principal undertakes at least 4 observations per year to be in line with HDip practice!! I'd like to see you suggest that my principal...

"Ah sorry Mr. Principal,,, you have to do...

• 160 observations on your staff this year
• and the associated paperwork...
• and don;t forget the training required to ensure you are qualified to make these judgements,
• and then deal with the appeals process
• and negative sentiment created amongst the staff because of accusations of favoritism."

What if the Principal is happy with the quality of his staff!!! That's a hell of a lot of extra work for a lot of unnecessary paperwork.

No, I don't think it would need to be 4 times per year, and as discussed subsequently, it would (similar to TP) need to be an external assessor. So, at least all your subsequent worries can be put to rest.

Armelodie wrote: »

Yes I actully have some faith in the education system and the professionalism of teachers as things stand at the moment. What I don't have faith in is the rabble and politicians who have absolutely no clue about the education system (apart from being qualified in 'gone to school once'). As plenty of teachers have commented here, look to the UK.

It was the comment about CPD education being less than adequate that showed the lack of faith.

Re bold comment. Who exactly are the rabble? Parents of children? The posters on here? That comment really does you no credit.

The current Minister for education, the politician is a former teacher, as are quite a lot of politicians as it happens.

Armelodie wrote: »

So that's your trump card there “seven days self-certified paid
sick leave be granted over a rolling two year period”. Wow,,, or should i say 'LOL, ROTFL,LMAO'... Obviously the teaching profession is rife with people being sick less than 4 times in a year. I don;t know about your knowledge of teaching but when I miss out days I do actually have to make up the time in order to get the course finished. And what's worse is the amount of teacher I see coming in sick because they don;t want their students to miss out. Duvet days!!! if you are a teacher taking duvet days you really are setting yourself up for a fall.

The whole point about this discussion is that teachers are just like anybody else. SOME will abuse the system. Yes, the majority of teachers are conscientious and do excellent jobs. All the more reason for these to be highlighted. And I've not even mentioned substitutes - okay, I just have :P

Armelodie wrote: »

I don;t know who does maybe you could provide some statistics as to those who take self-certified sick leave and are actually 'not sick'

Is it your assertion that teachers never take duvet days? While the rest of the population does, hence the term is widely understood, teachers couldn't possibly?

Armelodie wrote: »

It's not the 'principal' of the thing but how it's done if it is to be done... You are very scant on the actual 'how' part.

As a trained professional in the education system, do you have any suggestions as to how it can be done.

Everyone on this thread will be in agreement that the eduction of our children is of paramount importance.

We know how important class size is, but does the quality of the teacher matter?

And yes, we all know bad teachers. We've had them ourselves. We've also had great teachers. The best I've known was a lecturer that was head and shoulders over the dinosaurs that weren't fit to lick her boots, but they had tenure. She left totally disillusioned with the farce.

smcgiff

amacca wrote: »

I don't think your argument is helping you but I suppose well have to agree to disagree:)

Probably for the best.

amacca wrote: »

I wouldn't consider them to be experts on financial products either except It wasn't a product offered by a business….state pension therefore governed by what I presume would be the laws of the land….

just after asking dad about it, he said he also got bad advice from an accountant about the pension thing…..he thinks the guy wanted to encourage him even sell some of his stamps to a "preferred client" - then again he likes a good conspiracy theory my dad

Taxation is law as well. I really suggest you don't go to your solicitor for tax advice. I would similarly have thought a solicitor was not the best person to expect to have knowledge on state pensions. Especially ones like teachers' where they could 'buy stamps' - that's probably not the correct term, but I'm not an expert on stamps.

And, re bad advice from an accountant. It certainly does happen. Same as a doctor may misdiagnose. Lawyers not having sufficient case law knowledge. That's the point. There are also teachers that may not be performing sufficiently well that need help or those that are doing very well and should be rewarded.

amacca

smcgiff wrote: »

Probably for the best.
Taxation is law as well. I really suggest you don't go to your solicitor for tax advice. I would similarly have thought a solicitor was not the best person to expect to have knowledge on state pensions. Especially ones like teachers' where they could 'buy stamps' - that's probably not the correct term, but I'm not an expert on stamps.

Just to clarify…my dad is not and never was a teacher……he was a carpenter/v.small farmer -> I think back then people with lots of different occupations could sell stamps if they had more than you needed due to periods of employment above what was required…or something along those lines

Anyway he got bad advice on the amount that was needed and ended up being very nearly screwed as a result……..through his own research he caught the error……still down financially but not nearly as bad as it could have been

smcgiff wrote: »

And, re bad advice from an accountant. It certainly does happen. Same as a doctor may misdiagnose. Lawyers not having sufficient case law knowledge. That's the point. There are also teachers that may not be performing sufficiently well that need help or those that are doing very well and should be rewarded.

Like I said not against it in principle, its the practice I'd be worried about given the amount of administrative box ticking jobs for the boys bullsh1t Ive seen in the job and many others in the private sector too…. I do think its more than likely going to end up having many more negative consequences than positive ones if its brought in

I like previous posters have no faith in the powers that be to do it right in a fair ,balanced, cost neutral way that isn't a knee jerk reaction or won't end up being a fiasco or leaving the job nightmare thats less and less about actual teaching and providing the right conditions for teaching more about covering your ass and playing the blame game

I see a lot of things foisted on teaching because the crowds seem to bay loud enough for it or it was a particular ministers hobby horse/means of securing a legacy(possibly not a good one) or reputation that would help in securing further positions, not because it was justified by actual educational research…I've seen what I think are things introduced using "selected" parts of research while other parts were conveniently ignored because the didn't suit a populist narrative……And i've also seen things introduced that seemed to be decided at the top level and were then expected to happen without any follow through or proper resourcing……basically no joined up thinking due to a disconnect between those at the top and the people actually doing the job on the ground…thats not good in the long run and i've no reason to suspect some or all of the above wouldn't be the case in any performance related pay initiative.

I've mentioned in previous posts what I think would have to happen hand in hand with performance related pay for it to be successful never mind the actual mechanisms for measuring performance……I don't see those things (which i consider to be perfectly fair) happening (because i have little or no faith in the powers that be) and until they did i'd be against it.

#15

smcgiff wrote: »

“We tested the most basic and foundational question related to performance incentives — Does bonus pay alone improve student outcomes? "

You can see the gaping hole in that argument can't you.

Yes, which is exactly why I said

performance related pay is almost worthless if the aim is to increase student achievement or to ''raise test scores''.

But that raises the question that if the aim of PRP is not to increase student achivement, then what the hell is it for? To cut costs?

For what purpose is PRP necessary, in your opinion?
- Improving educational outcomes?
- Cost-cutting measures?
- Rewarding ''good'' teachers?
- Punishing bad teachers?
- Or some other reason?

smcgiff

#15 wrote: »

Yes, which is exactly why I said


But that raises the question that if the aim of PRP is not to increase student achivement, then what the hell is it for? To cut costs?

I've already answered this and I'm surprised it is not obvious.

#15

smcgiff wrote: »

I've already answered this and I'm surprised it is not obvious.

Sorry, I can't see your answer. I haven't been following this thread closely and my original post was not really aimed at you.

But I've had a skim over the thread and can't see your reasoning, other than that teachers ought to be assessed because they can be assessed and other professionals are assessed :

For anyone that thinks the teaching profession is not assessable, can they tell me any other job that cannot be assessed?

If I am misrepresenting you it's not intentional and it would be good if you could clarify it!

smcgiff

#15 wrote: »

Sorry, I can't see your answer. I haven't been following this thread closely and my original post was not really aimed at you.

But I've had a skim over the thread and can't see your reasoning, other than that teachers ought to be assessed because they can be assessed and other professionals are assessed :



If I am misrepresenting you it's not intentional and it would be good if you could clarify it!

I think student's improving in ability, moving up in standard tests is not a good test of ability of the teacher. However, a student or group of students going backwards would be something that should be looked at. If student's do show signs of improvement it would be exceptional and most certainly worthy of reward. I would imagine it would be very hard to achieve this, especially with the current classroom sizes.