Performance - Related Pay???

Afroshack

andrewg1981 wrote: »

That English experience is very insightful. Negotiated targets?? I would have thought that would be a major problem trying to implement; surely a huge increase in work load for administrators trying to 'negotiate' targets that everyone is happy with and then having to monitor / evaluate them.
Funnily enough I was speaking to a teacher from England on Sunday night during a catch up who outlined how his school operates a system of 3 inspection and your pay bonus is dependant on the outcome of those - I cannot remember the exact terms he used or who he said overseen these inspections (many pints were involved).
If it is payment based on results then it will be an absolute disaster.
Payment based on inspections - Who will do this? / Who will pay for it? Principals?? - Where will they get the extra time?
Payment based on CPD perhaps?? My mate did mention something about this being a component of some schools performance pay criteria and perhaps with the new TC guidelines on CPD this might be a route that they will explore. How will you evaluate the impact of the course teachers done though.
Very interesting observations raised by all and it is a topic I feel that we will unfortunately have to deal with in the coming years in teaching.

Payment via observations can still be problematic. Every teacher knows the difference between an early-morning lesson with a higher-level class and the last-class-on-Friday with bottom set ordinary level. Plus, the criteria for observations can be wildly subjective and every member of leadership is different. I've been observed by a dozen different members of staff and some have rated me 'outstanding' and sent their PDE students to watch and observe ; others have rated me 'requires improvement' and told me to go for further training; my assessor told me my differentiation wasn't great whilst my HOD told me I was excellent at it and one of the best in our department. Sometimes you can't win

evolving_doors

Afroshack wrote: »

Payment via observations can still be problematic. Every teacher knows the difference between an early-morning lesson with a higher-level class and the last-class-on-Friday with bottom set ordinary level. Plus, the criteria for observations can be wildly subjective and every member of leadership is different. I've been observed by a dozen different members of staff and some have rated me 'outstanding' and sent their PDE students to watch and observe ; others have rated me 'requires improvement' and told me to go for further training; my assessor told me my differentiation wasn't great whilst my HOD told me I was excellent at it and one of the best in our department. Sometimes you can't win

I wonder would any other profession ( doctor/nurse/dentist/social worker/physiotherapist etc.) be happy with fellow colleagues sitting in on their sessions and deciding on their career progression? And also basing the career progression on the 'outcomes' ... patients cured, teeth extracted, patients discharged!!!

marienbad

Armelodie wrote: »

Go on so, outline a model.

No need ,we had this discussion already and lets just say the profession is not ready to face up to the issue of under performance .

amacca

marienbad wrote: »

No need ,we had this discussion already and lets just say the profession is not ready to face up to the issue of under performance .

Pehaps…and perhaps the powers that be aren't ready to face up to the increasingly difficult working conditions (I won't go into the large class sizes + long contact hours) due to every students right to education but no efficient way to enforce responsibilities on the small minority that continue to disrupt with something very close to if not actually being impunity on a regular basis in a lot of schools.


Now theres another can of worms that really should be opened up if we intend to open up the first one as well.

SM746

marienbad wrote: »

No need ,we had this discussion already and lets just say the profession is not ready to face up to the issue of under performance .

I'd be very Intersted to hear how you think we should sort out the issue.

To be honest personally I've no idea of any fool proof system that can be applied to education.
Inspections as someone said above - time of day, etc, etc, etc along with any number of issues could alter the learning environment from teacher to teacher.

Grades?? - Huge deviations in year groups in schools never mind in different schools in the same areas and could be even more pronounced when talking about schools in different areas.

It's a tricky one; I recognise it is an issue in some cases but how do you think we should address it? Have you an idea of a system that you think would work?

marienbad

SM746 wrote: »

I'd be very Intersted to hear how you think we should sort out the issue.

To be honest personally I've no idea of any fool proof system that can be applied to education.
Inspections as someone said above - time of day, etc, etc, etc along with any number of issues could alter the learning environment from teacher to teacher.

Grades?? - Huge deviations in year groups in schools never mind in different schools in the same areas and could be even more pronounced when talking about schools in different areas.

It's a tricky one; I recognise it is an issue in some cases but how do you think we should address it? Have you an idea of a system that you think would work?

If you teach in a school you know the good teachers are , the teachers that are not cutting it but could do so if given a little help, and those teachers that have tons of ability but just have no interest but can't afford to leave and can't be touched .

How do you know this ?

SM746

marienbad wrote: »

If you teach in a school you know the good teachers are , the teachers that are not cutting it but could do so if given a little help, and those teachers that have tons of ability but just have no interest but can't afford to leave and can't be touched .

How do you know this ?

While I've no doubt teachers in my school can be moved into the different categories you mention above; I couldn't say with 100% personal confidence who those teachers are as I am not in a position to observe every teacher and apply their pedagogy to the latest research proven techniques. I just feel I would need to be in the classroom to get a full picture and in that case not just 1 lesson, etc.

Do you think there should be more peer assessment in the profession to evaluate our colleagues effectiveness?

Or how can we definitely tell which teachers fall into the above categories?

You seem to have an idea of an effetive performance system and I suppose the question I have is as follows - How would you implement a yearly system to evaluate teachers, label them within your categories and then effectively improve them?

I just feel performance pay systems will be very hard to implement in education until I see research showing me one that has effectively worked - the picture the posters have given of England's one is most certainly not fair in my opinion.

evolving_doors

marienbad wrote: »

No need ,we had this discussion already and lets just say the profession is not ready to face up to the issue of under performance .

I don't seem to recall what you proposed though (either 2 years ago or last march)?... other than chanting about the 'bad teachers' that need to be excised... and expounding the virtues of private industry bonus model.

This discussion is about performance related pay. We know you are against bad teachers as much as i know that children like ice cream, lets take that as a given and move on.

What do you propose?

marienbad

Armelodie wrote: »

I don't seem to recall what you proposed though (either 2 years ago or last march)?... other than chanting about the 'bad teachers' that need to be excised... and expounding the virtues of private industry bonus model.

This discussion is about performance related pay. We know you are against bad teachers as much as i know that children like ice cream, lets take that as a given and move on.

What do you propose?

you just keep chanting it can't be done and expounding the virtues of the profession. Why would teaching be any different than other professions .

Do you know bad teachers ?

Pwpane

marienbad wrote: »

But what can we do about those under performing teachers I wonder ?

Marienbad, I assume by 'underperforming' that you mean teachers that are bad at their job and should not be teaching, without intervention at any rate.

To know what 'underperforming' means, we would have to know what the baseline is.

What would that be? Average? If you're a good enough teacher, reasonable at your job, then you are not underperforming.

How would you decide what 'average' or 'good enough' is, and how would you determine if the teacher reached that standard?

Also, I don't at all see what this issue has to do with performance-related pay.

marienbad

Pwpane wrote: »

Marienbad, I assume by 'underperforming' that you mean teachers that are bad at their job and should not be teaching, without intervention at any rate.

To know what 'underperforming' means, we would have to know what the baseline is.

What would that be? Average? If you're a good enough teacher, reasonable at your job, then you are not underperforming.

How would you decide what 'average' or 'good enough' is, and how would you determine if the teacher reached that standard?

Also, I don't at all see what this issue has to do with performance-related pay.

Seriously ? Because some teachers are under performing !! it is what performance related pay is all about - remuneration based on performance

SM746

marienbad wrote: »

Seriously ? Because some teachers are under performing !! it is what performance related pay is all about - remuneration based on performance

But how would you judge what is under - performing? What is the cut off point?
Is it certain results you need to get in order to get your bonus? I'd need to know that before I could agree/disagree with your points that you will hopefully raise.

Pwpane

marienbad wrote: »

Seriously ? Because some teachers are under performing !! it is what performance related pay is all about - remuneration based on performance

Rubbish. If you aren't fit to teach, there should be an intervention. That intervention should address the source of the problem, including conditions and poor management of the school. If that doesn't work, and it's the teacher's fault rather than the school's, then you should be let go.

Performance related pay? If you look back at the post about performance related pay as applied in England, then bad, average, good, and outstanding teachers all have to set targets each year and 'improve' in order to rise up the pay scale. The process is not to do with eliminating bad teachers.

Your post was about bad teachers, not performance related pay.

Bad teaching is determined by comparison to a baseline of 'reasonably good' etc.

Again, according to you, what is that baseline? How would it be determined, and how would someone's teaching be evaluated to compare it to that baseline.

So far, all you have suggested seems to be to base it on school/parent/student rumour.

Afroshack

marienbad wrote: »

Seriously ? Because some teachers are under performing !! it is what performance related pay is all about - remuneration based on performance

You haven't propose what an 'underperforming' teacher is though. Is it:

A teacher who doesn't plan a clear starter, main and plenary activity?
A teacher who doesn't use AFL every 10 minutes of the lesson?
A teacher who doesn't mark every book, from every student, every day?
A teacher with poor/uncertain subject knowledge?
A teacher who cannot recognise or assist GLD's or needs more training/ resources in helping students with additional needs?
A teacher who doesn't make the lesson exciting or entertaining?
A teacher who has to repeatedly ask the same students to be quiet and remind them to stay on task? (there are those that will ALWAYS point the finger at the teacher when their children misbehave)
A teacher who doesn't use much audiovisual or kinesthetic learning?

Or is it simply..

A teacher who gets C's and D's in their Junior Cert/Leaving Cert results?

marienbad

Afroshack wrote: »

You haven't propose what an 'underperforming' teacher is though. Is it:

A teacher who doesn't plan a clear starter, main and plenary activity?
A teacher who doesn't use AFL every 10 minutes of the lesson?
A teacher who doesn't mark every book, from every student, every day?
A teacher with poor/uncertain subject knowledge?
A teacher who cannot recognise or assist GLD's or needs more training/ resources in helping students with additional needs?
A teacher who doesn't make the lesson exciting or entertaining?
A teacher who has to repeatedly ask the same students to be quiet and remind them to stay on task? (there are those that will ALWAYS point the finger at the teacher when their children misbehave)
A teacher who doesn't use much audiovisual or kinesthetic learning?

Or is it simply..

A teacher who gets C's and D's in their Junior Cert/Leaving Cert results?

I will try once more , do you know any bad teachers ?

Afroshack

marienbad wrote: »

I will try once more , do you know any bad teachers ?

I don't know what you mean by 'bad.' That could mean many number of things ; you have not explained.

SM746

marienbad wrote: »

I will try once more , do you know any bad teachers ?

You dont have to give a detailed answer, as it's clear your avoiding answering as I think you realise you dont have an argument that holds weight, but one simple yes/no answer to this if you could:

Do you have a criteria that you use to judge the cut off from bad to acceptable teaching?

marienbad

SM746 wrote: »

You dont have to give a detailed answer, as it's clear your avoiding answering as I think you realise you dont have an argument that holds weight, but one simple yes/no answer to this if you could:

Do you have a criteria that you use to judge the cut off from bad to acceptable teaching?

I am not avoiding anything ,it has ben discussed elsewhere. You are opposed to the principle no matter what .

So as for answering questions - do you know any bad teachers - or are you just avoiding also ?

SM746

marienbad wrote: »

I am not avoiding anything ,it has ben discussed elsewhere. You are opposed to the principle no matter what .

So as for answering questions - do you know any bad teachers - or are you just avoiding also ?

I'm not opposed to the principle of performance based pay - I'm opposed to the principal of results based pay. Performance can take on many different approaches; some of which would be good for the profession imo.
Performance based pay could be good/bad - tell me your system and ill offer my observations on what I think is good / bad in it.

Do I know bad teachers? Using the standards I set myself then yes I do.
My standards could be lower / higher than yours; I'd need to know what you're are though if you care to share them?

marienbad

SM746 wrote: »

I'm not opposed to the principle of performance based pay - I'm opposed to the principal of results based pay. Performance can take on many different approaches; some of which would be good for the profession imo.
Performance based pay could be good/bad - tell me your system and ill offer my observations on what I think is good / bad in it.

Do I know bad teachers? Using the standards I set myself then yes I do.
My standards could be lower / higher than yours; I'd need to know what you're are though if you care to share them?

I wouldn't disagree with any of that , and the fact that you know bad teachers means you are already assessing your colleagues . How do you do that ?

Pwpane

marienbad wrote: »

I am not avoiding anything ,it has ben discussed elsewhere. You are opposed to the principle no matter what .

So as for answering questions - do you know any bad teachers - or are you just avoiding also ?

Can you link to where you have set out your criteria before? I don't know why you are refusing to discuss it here when you brought up the point in the first place.

As for your own question, I knew a 'bad teacher' once. The problem was difficulty in controlling the class so he couldn't impart too much of his excellent knowledge. He got no help from management, when help would probably have sorted the situation. So he was known as a bad teacher.

All the teachers I have known since are overperforming teachers.

marienbad

Pwpane wrote: »

Can you link to where you have set out your criteria before? I don't know why you are refusing to discuss it here when you brought up the point in the first place.

As for your own question, I knew a 'bad teacher' once. The problem was difficulty in controlling the class so he couldn't impart too much of his excellent knowledge. He got no help from management, when help would probably have sorted the situation. So he was known as a bad teacher.

All the teachers I have known since are overperforming teachers.

Then you are mistaken , there are underperformers in every walk of life and to deny it is just burying your head in the sand .

Pwpane

marienbad wrote: »

Then you are mistaken , there are underperformers in every walk of life and to deny it is just burying your head in the sand .

I'm not denying it - I just don't know any.

Over to you again. What are your criteria for being an underperforming teacher? Those bad teachers that you know, how do you know that they are bad teachers? If it's only through the rumour mill, how could you find out - if you were in the position to find out?

Chilli Con Kearney

Question for Marienbad. (My hand is waving furiously at the back of the class).

Teacher, teacher...if x + y + z = characteristics you think represent a bad teacher, what are x, y and z?

I kind of get it, but I'm just stuck on that bit teacher. Could you go over it again, please?

marienbad

Pwpane wrote: »

I'm not denying it - I just don't know any.

Over to you again. What are your criteria for being an underperforming teacher? Those bad teachers that you know, how do you know that they are bad teachers? If it's only through the rumour mill, how could you find out - if you were in the position to find out?

There is a whole science dedicated to performance measurement , why do you think your profession is immune ? If you are really interested look it up , it is not something you encapsulate in a 10 line post.

I know there are bad teachers and so do you. This is like benchmarking all over again, bitterly opposed to it and not taking the trouble to understand it.

Pwpane

marienbad wrote: »

There is a whole science dedicated to performance measurement , why do you think your profession is immune ? If you are really interested look it up , it is not something you encapsulate in a 10 line post.

I know there are bad teachers and so do you. This is like benchmarking all over again, bitterly opposed to it and not taking the trouble to understand it.

Oh, so if I am to have a discussion with you I need to research a whole science because you refuse to communicate your ideas. I have to guess what you think and discuss what I think you think, with myself.

Right.

evolving_doors

marienbad wrote: »

There is a whole science dedicated to performance measurement , why do you think your profession is immune ? If you are really interested look it up , it is not something you encapsulate in a 10 line post.

I know there are bad teachers and so do you. This is like benchmarking all over again, bitterly opposed to it and not taking the trouble to understand it.

Ok we're getting somewhere .. the 'science' of performance measurement..

Can you provide a link to this 'science' you speak of... namely in relation to education!!

Do you mean applying some lean 6-sigma analysis to teacher performance btw?

Dave0301

marienbad wrote: »

There is a whole science dedicated to performance measurement , why do you think your profession is immune ? If you are really interested look it up , it is not something you encapsulate in a 10 line post.

I know there are bad teachers and so do you. This is like benchmarking all over again, bitterly opposed to it and not taking the trouble to understand it.

Science.......as in cold hard indisputable proven facts? Peer reviewed, and all people are in agreement on this for the education sector?

I would love to read up on this if you have a link for it?

amacca

marienbad wrote: »

There is a whole science dedicated to performance measurement , why do you think your profession is immune ? If you are really interested look it up , it is not something you encapsulate in a 10 line post.

I know there are bad teachers and so do you. This is like benchmarking all over again, bitterly opposed to it and not taking the trouble to understand it.

Why are you avoiding most other posters reasonable questions? If you are in favour of "performance management" then the next logical question I assume most would ask would be what form would that performance management take?……Unless you came to a teaching forum expecting everyone to give the equivalent of soothing "ah sure of course your right there ted" type comments

Haven't you thought this through? Nervous a reasonable debate might yield a result you wouldn't like?

marienbad

amacca wrote: »

Why are you avoiding most other posters reasonable questions? If you are in favour of "performance management" then the next logical question I assume most would ask would be what form would that performance management take?……Unless you came to a teaching forum expecting everyone to give the equivalent of soothing "ah sure of course your right there ted" type comments

Haven't you thought this through? Nervous a reasonable debate might yield a result you wouldn't like?

even the most cursory internet search on teacher assessment will give you all the results you need. Here is one from Stanford to keep you going
https://scale.stanford.edu/system/files/teacher_effectiveness.pdf

Now before we start parsing each study line by line , I will tell you know I am not interested - it is the principle that is the issue , the practice will follow later.

So do you agree with the principle of performance related pay under any circumstances ?