Rabbitte caught in the Independent headlights

First Up

Rightwing wrote: »

It's a disgrace, this is what Rabbitte and his generation should be looking at.

Independents are on the rise all over Europe. It's no coincidence. Only a fool would think the established parties are serving the people well.

I look forward to the political treatise that explains how a parliament made up of disparate independents, each a hostage to their own local agenda (or worse) will deliver stable government and prosperity.

I mean there are loads of examples of fragmented, tribal societies that are just thriving without an "establishment". Aren't there?

Rightwing

First Up wrote: »

I look forward to the political treatise that explains how a parliament made up of disparate independents, each a hostage to their own local agenda (or worse) will deliver stable government and prosperity.

I mean there are loads of examples of fragmented, tribal societies that are just thriving without an "establishment". Aren't there?

There are political establishments such as Spain and Greece that have essentially thrashed their economy so badly, I doubt any number of independents could have done worse.

First Up

Rightwing wrote: »

There are political establishments such as Spain and Greece that have essentially thrashed their economy so badly, I doubt any number of independents could have done worse.

Just tell us the ones that do better.

marienbad

Happyman42 wrote: »

FG/LAB broke the agreement they made with the electorate when asking to have power vested in them Hence they will be eclipsed by Independents and other parties.

What does this even mean ?

Rightwing

First Up wrote: »

Just tell us the ones that do better.

Chinese are demolishing Europe as we speak.

micosoft

Rightwing wrote: »

Chinese are demolishing Europe as we speak.

Because the Chinese are full of independent representatives right? One of the more ridiculous non-retorts I've seen.

Happyman42

marienbad wrote: »

What does this even mean ?

Both parties promised to achieve certain things and that there where things they would never do. And reneged on that.
Regardless of whether you think that is correct or not, if the electorate choose somebody else (independent or other party) next time, it will be because, in their opinions the current incumbents didn't live up to their promises last time.

Rightwing

micosoft wrote: »

Because the Chinese are full of independent representatives right? One of the more ridiculous non-retorts I've seen.

Are you capable of reading the question I wonder?

micosoft

SpaceTime wrote: »

The water charges are an example of a policy that is being driven without any democratic mandate. By that I mean, it's deeply unpopular and nobody voted for any candidate on the basis that they were going to bring in water metering. At best, they didn't mention the issue back in the last general elections.

When the opening line in your statement is untruthful, it really isn't worthwhile commenting on the rest. Fine Gael clearly had the establishment of Irish Water in it's manifesto. It does not get clearer then that. TBH I can't accept that you don't know that either. Your presumption that nobody voted for water meters is exactly that and also dishonest. As is clear from boards, many people do support metering of water as the fairest way of billing for a scare resource.

micosoft

Rightwing wrote: »

Are you capable of reading the question I wonder?

Unlike you, yes.

Originally Posted by Firstup View Post
I mean there are loads of examples of fragmented, tribal societies that are just thriving without an "establishment". Aren't there?

Originally Posted by Rightwing View Post
There are political establishments such as Spain and Greece that have essentially thrashed their economy so badly, I doubt any number of independents could have done worse.

Originally Posted by Firstup View Post
Just tell us the ones that do better.

Originally Posted by Rightwing View Post
Chinese are demolishing Europe as we speak.

So essentially you are calling China a "fragmented, tribal society". And strenuously avoiding Firstup's core point that there are no successful democratic societies operating without a party system.

But I do retract. It's not ridiculous. It's a direct attempt at derailing the thread and not a serious argument. And you know that.

Rightwing

micosoft wrote: »

Unlike you, yes.









So essentially you are calling China a "fragmented, tribal society". And strenuously avoiding Firstup's core point that there are no successful democratic societies operating without a party system.

But I do retract. It's not ridiculous. It's a direct attempt at derailing the thread and not a serious argument. And you know that.

Voters are disillusioned. And voting independents. In Europe the vote is also becoming a worry. He asked what is doing better than the established parties. I said the China system is. Their economy is crushing Europe's.

The political parties will slump further until they acknowledge this and act on it. It's easy for the likes of Phil Hogan in Europe to tell the 50% of Spanish unemployed youth that the current system is great. It's not - they are failing, and failing badly.

SpaceTime

Whatever your political view on water metering might be, the simple fact is that it doesn't have popular support unlike measures such as the smoking ban, plastic bag charges etc.

All I'm saying is that without a popular mandate for a major policy change that will result in an extra utility bill, you're going to see party support falling rapidly.

The irony of it is that it'll probably result in Fianna Fail reemerging having achieved complete electoral amnesia.

First Up

Rightwing wrote: »

Voters are disillusioned. And voting independents. In Europe the vote is also becoming a worry. He asked what is doing better than the established parties. I said the China system is. Their economy is crushing Europe's.

The political parties will slump further until they acknowledge this and act on it. It's easy for the likes of Phil Hogan in Europe to tell the 50% of Spanish unemployed youth that the current system is great. It's not - they are failing, and failing badly.

I asked you to name the countries that operate on a system based around independents (which you seem to advocate). China is probably the most spectacularly ridiculous example possible to offer in response.

Rightwing

First Up wrote: »

I asked you to name the countries that operate on a system based around independents (which you seem to advocate). China is probably the most spectacularly ridiculous example possible to offer in response.

In that instance I do have to apologise to the other user. I doubted any post could have been that dense.

This is a new phenomenon, democracy making progess. Akin to asking someone in the 1990s to 'show me a smart phone'.

SpaceTime

The Irish electoral system is designed in such a way that it facilitates independents anyway.

Multi-seat constituency and proportional representation by means of a single transferable vote is an EXTREMELY open system.

I can't think of any systems where it's easier to get elected as an independent.

The upside is that its a democratic outlet for a protest vote that doesn't exist elsewhere to the same degree.

I'd rather see independents being elected than seeing something like the rise of the far right or violent protests that we're seeing elsewhere in Europe.

At the end of the day the Irish electoral system is a market and the currency is a vote. Customers are expressing their dislike of the mainsteam big three at the moment and are opting to shop local.

If the mainstream parties change their product, adapt to consumer demand then they get votes.

It's just democracy in action. If they're losing votes they're doing something that the voters don't like. Their job is to do what the voters want them to do.

What the voters want may not be "right" in terms of perhaps wanting to tear up agreements with the troika but that's what the voters want and ultimately the politicians are the voters' representatives not their boss.

Rightwing

SpaceTime wrote: »

The Irish electoral system is designed in such a way that it facilitates independents anyway.

Multi-seat constituency and proportional representation by means of a single transferable vote is an EXTREMELY open system.

I can't think of any systems where it's easier to get elected as an independent.

The upside is that its a democratic outlet for a protest vote that doesn't exist elsewhere to the same degree.

I'd rather see independents being elected than seeing something like the rise of the far right or violent protests that we're seeing elsewhere in Europe.

At the end of the day the Irish electoral system is a market and the currency is a vote. Customers are expressing their dislike of the mainsteam big three at the moment and are opting to shop local.

If the mainstream parties change their product, adapt to consumer demand then they get votes.

It's just democracy in action. If they're losing votes they're doing something that the voters don't like. Their job is to do what the voters want them to do.

What the voters want may not be "right" in terms of perhaps wanting to tear up agreements with the troika but that's what the voters want and ultimately the politicians are the voters' representatives not their boss.

No question about that, the political parties have got themselves into a corner. Getting out won't be that easy.

hatrickpatrick

Rightwing wrote: »

Agreed.

The reality is independents are now more popular than ever before. Whether this is a good thing or not is merely an opinion.

Exactly. The debate here is merely about why they're more popular.

hatrickpatrick

First Up wrote: »

If you are a member of a party, you endorse party policy. That's why we have parties. Nothing to do with cronyism; it's how our system of government works and it serves us well most of the time.

Shouldn't party policy be set by the party and not by a small clique at the top of the party?

Do you think it's a good thing that the cabinet controls the entire Dail? Do you see a purpose for TDs outside the cabinet in such a scenario?

If you think anarchy would be better, well you are entitled to your opinion. You might like to tell us where that works well.

O_o
Where did anyone mention anarchy as an alternative?

The last government messed up and they got voted out. The current government has repaired a lot of the damage but if you don't like what they are doing, you can vote for someone else next time.

Oh believe me, I will. This debate is simply about why independents are gaining traction and more specifically about Rabbitte's comments and whether people agree with them.

SpaceTime

Rightwing wrote: »

No question about that, the political parties have got themselves into a corner. Getting out won't be that easy.

It's easy enough really :

1. Ditch leader of party and most of front bench.
2. Relaunch with refreshed policy.

Or

3. Lose election badly and have to the above anyway.

hatrickpatrick

SpaceTime wrote: »

The Irish electoral system is designed in such a way that it facilitates independents anyway.

I agree with this, and most of your post. The problem is that once elected, the parliamentary system is stacked against independents, which is why losing the party whip is such a scary concept for TDs, and why a technical group had to be formed in order to give independents the ability to act as fully functional TDs. If this system was reformed such that losing the party whip didn't encompass losing a bunch of Dail abilities, you might find more TDs willing to vote with their electorate.

hatrickpatrick

First Up wrote: »

I look forward to the political treatise that explains how a parliament made up of disparate independents, each a hostage to their own local agenda (or worse) will deliver stable government and prosperity.

It will deliver government for the people and not government for a small clique of elites, as independents who let down the electorate will be torn apart at the next election.

Ideally a system of recall would be implemented so one wouldn't have to wait five years, but let's make progress one step at a time, eh?

I mean there are loads of examples of fragmented, tribal societies that are just thriving without an "establishment". Aren't there?

So you're basically suggesting that you think having an elite, a political class, an established hierarchy in society is a good thing? That all people should not be created and treated equally?

Rightwing

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's easy enough really :

1. Ditch leader of party and most of front bench.
2. Relaunch with refreshed policy.

Or

3. Lose election badly and have to the above anyway.

The reason it can't be easy is that practically every western economy has max'd out it's credit card out (debt). Payback time is quickly approaching.

Godge

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It will deliver government for the people and not government for a small clique of elites, as independents who let down the electorate will be torn apart at the next election.

Exhibit A: Michael Lowry
Exhibit B: Jackie Healy-Rae

Two of the worst TDs ever and constantly re-elected as independents.

SpaceTime

Rightwing wrote: »

The reason it can't be easy is that practically every western economy has max'd out it's credit card out (debt). Payback time is quickly approaching.

Not really.

Mostly the money is owed to western banks, pension funds and other financial institutions.
None of those want money paid back immediately, they make more than healthy profits on it and basically buy government bonds as a savings policy.

Unless you default on the loans (not bloody likely) all that matters is your ability to pay, not the value of the loan.

There's still too much hysteria around this topic. No country runs debt free. Ireland's debt is too high and the only way to deal with that is to grow the economy to make the debt relatively smaller.

Rightwing

Godge wrote: »

Exhibit A: Michael Lowry
Exhibit B: Jackie Healy-Rae

Two of the worst TDs ever and constantly re-elected as independents.

Subjective.

Rightwing

SpaceTime wrote: »

Not really.

Mostly the money is owed to western banks, pension funds and other financial institutions.
None of those want money paid back immediately, they make more than healthy profits on it and basically buy government bonds as a savings policy.

Unless you default on the loans (not bloody likely) all that matters is your ability to pay, not the value of the loan.

There's still too much hysteria around this topic. No country runs debt free. Ireland's debt is too high and the only way to deal with that is to grow the economy to make the debt relatively smaller.

That's what they said in '07 when we had far less debt.

marienbad

Rightwing wrote: »

Subjective.

So would you like a Dail made up of Lowrys and Healy-Raes then ?

SpaceTime

Rightwing wrote: »

That's what they said in '07 when we had far less debt.

It'll just keep rolling and rolling.

There's no hedge fund looking at recalling loans. That's just not in anyone's interest.

Bear in mind that when you're buying prize bonds or savings bonds you're one of those nasty lenders.

Rightwing

marienbad wrote: »

So would you like a Dail made up of Lowrys and Healy-Raes then ?

Let's just say I wouldn't like a Dáil of B Aherns or Haugheys any more than the Lowrys of this world.

marienbad

Rightwing wrote: »

Let's just say I wouldn't like a Dáil of B Aherns or Haugheys any more than the Lowrys of this world.

now who is being subjective ?