Rabbitte caught in the Independent headlights

nice_guy80

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/rabbitte-rise-of-independents-not-a-solution-for-irelands-politics-645017.html

Such a nice condescending man, is our Pat.

Wasn't he at the centre of the UCD student protests back in the 70s? And how the establishment didn't listen to other viewpoints?

hatrickpatrick

When he says it will destroy Irish politics, what he actually means is that it will destroy the Irish political establishment.
Happy days.

Badabing

Rabbite i think will have to run in the next election if not labour haven't a hope getting a seat in DSW, ditto Brian Hayes he might be made come back from Europe.

RobertKK

For a change I agree with the the points that Rabbitte made in the link.

People like Paul Murphy will solve nothing, nor will an exceptional amount of independents.
Plus I don't agree with a budget spending spree.

hatrickpatrick

RobertKK wrote: »

For a change I agree with the the points that Rabbitte made in the link.

People like Paul Murphy will solve nothing, nor will an exceptional amount of independents.
Plus I don't agree with a budget spending spree.

They might solve the phony manifesto problem to a certain extent. Independents don't have a whip to hide behind, they have to act in a way which their constituents are happy with or they're screwed.

washman3

RobertKK wrote: »

For a change I agree with the the points that Rabbitte made in the link.

People like Paul Murphy will solve nothing, nor will an exceptional amount of independents.
Plus I don't agree with a budget spending spree.

The points Rabbitte made are to appease the elite, ie maintain the status quo that is the corrupt establishment. What has he himself ever actually solved.?
Should we bring back Bertie.? or maybe make Lowry a minister again?
Would thet "solve" things.?

In a nutshell, Rabbitte is only concerned about himself and his cronies, don't be fooled.;)

hatrickpatrick

washman3 wrote: »

What has he himself ever actually solved.?

To be fair, he did manage to solve the conundrum about how to continue massively overpaying celebrity presenters at RTE with the universal broadcasting charge proposal. Isn't he great?!

gugleguy

washman3 wrote: »

what has he himself ever actually solved.?

In a nutshell, Rabbitte is only concerned about himself and his cronies, don't be fooled.;)

Rabbitte's best achievement is that denouncement of Pat Carey on Prime time.

Who's Pat Carey these days? I don't cre.

Mr Rabbitte as a start you are ignorant. To do that on Prime Time.

But you're cushdy and that is another notch for ya.

That's what I will say is faulty in Irish Politics.


I don't give a hoot how Pat Carey ends up.

Mr Rabbitte I have no respect for you. You're very cliquey as well as partial to a rant in the face of deskside opposition on current affairs television

Sunnyisland

He has a very short memory, I have no time for them ex sticky members who forget where they came from.

RobertKK

A disparate lot of independents will not be able to agree policy to form a government.

Godge

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

They might solve the phony manifesto problem to a certain extent. Independents don't have a whip to hide behind, they have to act in a way which their constituents are happy with or they're screwed.

The only country to operate without a whip system is the US which a result has allowed big business to buy each politician for the vote they want. Thus, they will vote for a big tax break for Apple while also voting for a small concession in their locality.

Awkward Badger

Godge wrote: »

The only country to operate without a whip system is the US which a result has allowed big business to buy each politician for the vote they want. Thus, they will vote for a big tax break for Apple while also voting for a small concession in their locality.

US politics does not operate without a whip system. I don't know the ins and outs of it though.

Both houses of Congress, the House of Representatives and Senate, have majority and minority whips. They in turn have subordinate "regional" whips. While members of Congress often vote along party lines, the influence of the whip is weaker than in the UK system.

Source

Rightwing

The political system is in meltdown in the western world. Politicians have bankrupted nations through greed and stupidity. Independent is the way forward, nothing would get done.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

nice_guy80

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Well at least we have the pension reserve fund.... oh wait, Labour and FG spent a lot of it

Godge

Awkward Badger wrote: »

US politics does not operate without a whip system. I don't know the ins and outs of it though.

The whip system is ineffective in the US. Democrats and Republicans regularly vote on the other side. Pork Barrel Politics is worse than over here.

BoJack Horseman

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The unfunded pension mandate is €400 bn & climbing.

In the context of this thread, no party or indie has the grapes to mention it.

Larbre34

Bring it on Pat, I just hope you live long enough to see your inexcusably large pension obliterated, might jog your memory as to the full impact of real hardship.

gandalf

To be fair to Pat Rabbitte he has a point. Most Independents are single issue candidates and they are doing National politics a disservice because once they are involved in decisions or discussions outside their area of interest they really are not contributing to the solution on the wider issues a national parliamentarian should be dealing with.

To balance this up all of our political parties have been coasting for years never actually facing down the real problems of Irish society and not being proactive in planning ahead for the actual needs of the country. The time is ripe for a party to form that is decoupled from the politics of the past, be it undue religious interference, the cronyism of the main parties and the violence of some of the others.

Rightwing

gandalf wrote: »

To be fair to Pat Rabbitte he has a point. Most Independents are single issue candidates and they are doing National politics a disservice because once they are involved in decisions or discussions outside their area of interest they really are not contributing to the solution on the wider issues a national parliamentarian should be dealing with.

To balance this up all of our political parties have been coasting for years never actually facing down the real problems of Irish society and not being proactive in planning ahead for the actual needs of the country. The time is ripe for a party to form that is decoupled from the politics of the past, be it undue religious interference, the cronyism of the main parties and the violence of some of the others.

Idealistically you are right. But politics doesn't work that way. Politics is like a sponge, sponge your country and tax payers for what you can. Is it any wonder that the US has accumulated almost $18 trillion of debt? The likes of George Bush and his great party would like to blame independents for that sorry mess. Anyway, George need not worry.

RobertKK

Rightwing wrote: »

Idealistically you are right. But politics doesn't work that way. Politics is like a sponge, sponge your country and tax payers for what you can. Is it any wonder that the US has accumulated almost $18 trillion of debt? The likes of George Bush and his great party would like to blame independents for that sorry mess. Anyway, George need not worry.

Obama has added the most debt, it was $9. something trillion when he took over.

Rightwing

RobertKK wrote: »

Obama has added the most debt, it was $9. something trillion when he took over.

Exactly, doesn't matter what party you vote for. They will cause economic carnage. Blaming independents will only fool the intellectually challenged.

First Up

Rightwing wrote: »

Exactly, doesn't matter what party you vote for. They will cause economic carnage. Blaming independents will only fool the intellectually challenged.

You want to tell us the countries that operate successfully without a "political establishment"?

Independents are a frivolous luxury.

Rightwing

First Up wrote: »

You want to tell us the countries that operate successfully without a "political establishment"?

Independents are a frivolous luxury.

Give me a ming flanagan over bertie ahern anyday.

Davarus Walrus

Rightwing wrote: »

Give me a ming flanagan over bertie ahern anyday.

I'd rather neither.

BoJack Horseman

A few more Indies like Stephen Donnelly & the tarnished reputation of indie TDs may recover.

First Up

Rightwing wrote: »

Give me a ming flanagan over bertie ahern anyday.

Doesn't answer the question

Rightwing

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

I'd rather neither.

I can agree with this, there are far too many of them. Most of them probably have no qualifications.

Rightwing

First Up wrote: »

Doesn't answer the question

You didn't ask a question.

First Up

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

A few more Indies like Stephen Donnelly & the tarnished reputation of indie TDs may recover.

It isn't about reputation. It's about having a government that can design and implement effective policies.
A bunch of single issue candidates, or people elected on a "protest" platform are just background noise while the real work gets done by the grown ups.

First Up

Rightwing wrote: »

You didn't ask a question.

I asked what countries operate successfully without a political establishment.

Rightwing

First Up wrote: »

I asked what countries operate successfully without a political establishment.

Good question, do countries operate successfully at all I wonder. The way the political establishment has run countries simply cannot continue. Something will have to give.

hfallada

There is very few independent candidates that have any skills to transfer into a government. None of them seem particularly well educated or have leadership skills. How is possible for a Government to deal with an emergency if there is 80 independents who all want their spotlight in a the press? At least with a whip system of 3 parties, decisions can be made quickly.

Reform of existing political parties would be move efficient, than a group of clueless independents.

P_1

It's easy to simply call Rabbitte's comments the reaction of a threatened member of the establishment to a threat to their establishment but he does have a point re single issue independents not really being able to govern.

The elephant in the room however is the fact that the established parties aren't really serving us all that well. Unfortunately the barriers to establishing a new party to sweep the establishment are too high and what we're left with is the poor compromise of electing either single issue independents or members of the same old failing established parties.

The South Park "vote for the turd or the douchebag" episode comes to mind.

Rightwing

hfallada wrote: »

There is very few independent candidates that have any skills to transfer into a government. None of them seem particularly well educated or have leadership skills. How is possible for a Government to deal with an emergency if there is 80 independents who all want their spotlight in a the press? At least with a whip system of 3 parties, decisions can be made quickly.

Reform of existing political parties would be move efficient, than a group of clueless independents.

Didn't bertie ahern go to the london school of economics. Only problem was, they never knew he did.

mikom

hfallada wrote: »

There is very few independent candidates that have any skills to transfer into a government. None of them seem particularly well educated or have leadership skills.

Yeah......... a few more of them need to be appointed to the Irish Museum of Modern Art to pad out their CV.
Enda, are you up for it?

First Up

Rightwing wrote: »

Good question, do countries operate successfully at all I wonder. The way the political establishment has run countries simply cannot continue. Something will have to give.

Things can always be improved but I would prefer to live in a country with an "establishment" - also known as stable political system, a (for the most part) competent and committed public sector and a (for the most part) fair and impartial legal system.

We live in such a country and a lot of people around the world don't. It is not a coincidence that the countries with these characteristics are also the most prosperous. We rank 12th by the way.

http://www.prosperity.com/

Godge

First Up wrote: »

It isn't about reputation. It's about having a government that can design and implement effective policies.
A bunch of single issue candidates, or people elected on a "protest" platform are just background noise while the real work gets done by the grown ups.

hfallada wrote: »

There is very few independent candidates that have any skills to transfer into a government. None of them seem particularly well educated or have leadership skills. How is possible for a Government to deal with an emergency if there is 80 independents who all want their spotlight in a the press? At least with a whip system of 3 parties, decisions can be made quickly.

Reform of existing political parties would be move efficient, than a group of clueless independents.

At the end of the day though, these are factors that only come into play in a general election and particularly in the last week of a general election when people move from thinking about which candidate they want to vote for to thinking about what government they want.

Most of the late swings in recent general elections can be put down to this.

None of the above applies to local elections, euro elections or by-elections (unless government majority is small and it will make a difference).

Rightwing

First Up wrote: »

Things can always be improved but I would prefer to live in a country with an "establishment" - also known as stable political system, a (for the most part) competent and committed public sector and a (for the most part) fair and impartial legal system.

We live in such a country and a lot of people around the world don't. It is not a coincidence that the countries with these characteristics are also the most prosperous. We rank 12th by the way.

http://www.prosperity.com/

Agreed, but when they are failing and leading us to bankruptcy, we have to look for alternatives.

First Up

Rightwing wrote: »

Agreed, but when they are failing and leading us to bankruptcy, we have to look for alternatives.

I await your suggestions.

Rightwing

First Up wrote: »

I await your suggestions.

Very small government, centrally run, people with qualifications. And I don't mean teachers running finance departments or leaders gaining qualifications in the london school of economics.

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/the-cult-of-bertie-ahern-29942291.html
In 2003, he'd been forced to amend his website, which claimed he'd attended UCD and the London School of Economics. His spokesperson said: "He has never claimed to hold degrees from UCD or anywhere else. He remembers doing the courses, but not what they were." Now it emerged that not only was he not a qualified accountant, but that as Finance Minister, he didn't even have a bank account, and was moving large cash sums in mysterious ways.

ezra_pound

Rightwing wrote: »

Agreed, but when they are failing and leading us to bankruptcy, we have to look for alternatives.

So we should vote for the status quo then seeing as the current adminstration are getting the nation in order and are recovering the economy from bankruptcy like a phoenix rising from its ashes.

First Up

ezra_pound wrote: »

So we should vote for the status quo then seeing as the current adminstration are getting the nation in order and are recovering the economy from bankruptcy like a phoenix rising from its ashes.

You'll never get on Joe Duffy saying sensible things like that.

Rightwing

ezra_pound wrote: »

So we should vote for the status quo then seeing as the current adminstration are getting the nation in order and are recovering the economy from bankruptcy like a phoenix rising from its ashes.

They are certainly the best, but why not change things a little, for instance, not allowing someone on welfare a vote. I fear welfare voters.

gandalf

This is what I proposed before and I still believe it is the best way forward. Removes the cult of personality from national politics and the dangers of having one issue wonders elected as independents.

Political System Overhaul Suggestions.

• Abolish the Seanad (or at worst have it totally directly elected with the elections occurring two years after the general election to provide a check and balance for the Dail).
• Reduce the number of TD's to around 100.
• The elections for the Dail to be fulfilled against a total list system.
• Maximum term in office of 3 Dails for all TD's.
• TD's only allowed to deal with national issues.
• If a TD stands down or dies his party replaces them with the next person on the list submitted before the last general election avoiding by-elections.
• TD's pay fixed at 50% above the average wage, Ministers at 25% above TD's wages and the Taoiseach at 25% above Ministers.
• Any state employees that become a TD will have to relinquish their position so it becomes available to a full time employee to fill.
• Dail Holidays reduced to 1 month in the summer, a week at Christmas and 10 working days for the rest of the year.
• Pensions only become active at retirement age and only one can be held.
• Reduce the number of councils to around 5 or 6.
• Councillors to become full time paid positions at average wage levels.
• Council elections to occur every two years.
• All political positions subject to a vouched expense scheme with full receipts required.
  
• To that I would now add 25% of Ministerial positions can be filled from outside the Government pool to allow for suitably qualified people to populate specialist departments.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79547787&postcount=3

Rightwing

gandalf wrote: »

This is what I proposed before and I still believe it is the best way forward. Removes the cult of personality from national politics and the dangers of having one issue wonders elected as independents.

Political System Overhaul Suggestions.

• Abolish the Seanad (or at worst have it totally directly elected with the elections occurring two years after the general election to provide a check and balance for the Dail).
• Reduce the number of TD's to around 100.
• The elections for the Dail to be fulfilled against a total list system.
• Maximum term in office of 3 Dails for all TD's.
• TD's only allowed to deal with national issues.
• If a TD stands down or dies his party replaces them with the next person on the list submitted before the last general election avoiding by-elections.
• TD's pay fixed at 50% above the average wage, Ministers at 25% above TD's wages and the Taoiseach at 25% above Ministers.
• Any state employees that become a TD will have to relinquish their position so it becomes available to a full time employee to fill.
• Dail Holidays reduced to 1 month in the summer, a week at Christmas and 10 working days for the rest of the year.
• Pensions only become active at retirement age and only one can be held.
• Reduce the number of councils to around 5 or 6.
• Councillors to become full time paid positions at average wage levels.
• Council elections to occur every two years.
• All political positions subject to a vouched expense scheme with full receipts required.
  
• To that I would now add 25% of Ministerial positions can be filled from outside the Government pool to allow for suitably qualified people to populate specialist departments.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79547787&postcount=3

I don't think any intelligent individual would argue against that apart from maybe that one.

hatrickpatrick

Godge wrote: »

The only country to operate without a whip system is the US which a result has allowed big business to buy each politician for the vote they want. Thus, they will vote for a big tax break for Apple while also voting for a small concession in their locality.

All that suggests is that a combination of no whip and strict restrictions on corporate donations and political fundraising are needed in order to force politicians to vote with their electorate. Nobody ever suggested that fixing democracy requires only one paradigm shift

First Up

gandalf wrote: »

This is what I proposed before and I still believe it is the best way forward. Removes the cult of personality from national politics and the dangers of having one issue wonders elected as independents.

Political System Overhaul Suggestions.

• Abolish the Seanad (or at worst have it totally directly elected with the elections occurring two years after the general election to provide a check and balance for the Dail).
• Reduce the number of TD's to around 100.
• The elections for the Dail to be fulfilled against a total list system.
• Maximum term in office of 3 Dails for all TD's.
• TD's only allowed to deal with national issues.
• If a TD stands down or dies his party replaces them with the next person on the list submitted before the last general election avoiding by-elections.
• TD's pay fixed at 50% above the average wage, Ministers at 25% above TD's wages and the Taoiseach at 25% above Ministers.
• Any state employees that become a TD will have to relinquish their position so it becomes available to a full time employee to fill.
• Dail Holidays reduced to 1 month in the summer, a week at Christmas and 10 working days for the rest of the year.
• Pensions only become active at retirement age and only one can be held.
• Reduce the number of councils to around 5 or 6.
• Councillors to become full time paid positions at average wage levels.
• Council elections to occur every two years.
• All political positions subject to a vouched expense scheme with full receipts required.
  
• To that I would now add 25% of Ministerial positions can be filled from outside the Government pool to allow for suitably qualified people to populate specialist departments.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79547787&postcount=3

Not going to go through that line by line - it looks mostly to be tinkering for the sake of it.

Just two comments:

List systems are typically operated by the political paries. How does a "total" list system operate?

Your 3 term max would mean that Michael Noonan would not have been still in politics and thus unavailable for Finance Minister. Would that have been a good idea?

The bottom line is that politicians are elected so we get the politicians we deserve. Not much point then complaining afterwards.

Rightwing

First Up wrote: »

Not going to go through that line by line - it looks mostly to be tinkering for the sake of it.

Just two comments:

List systems are typically operated by the political paries. How does a "total" list system operate?

Your 3 term max would mean that Michael Noonan would not have been still in politics and thus unavailable for Finance Minister. Would that have been a good idea?

The bottom line is that politicians are elected so we get the politicians we deserve. Not much point then complaining afterwards.

Idiotoc. Must look for improvements.

First Up

Rightwing wrote: »

Idiotoc. Must look for improvements.

In what - the IQ of the electorate?

Wouldn't disagree.

Rightwing

First Up wrote: »

In what - the IQ of the electorate?

Wouldn't disagree.

That won't be possible.

Rabbitte is doing precisely what you said, 'we get the politicians we deserve, no point complaining'.