Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

kryogen

And people still respond, every time

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Have we had an international break yet this season where we have all been saying, "comes at a good time, chance to get some players back from injury" Unreal this season, hopefully they are going to stop being such a factor soon. Very hard to get a consistent team when you can't put out the same one twice in a row.

eagle eye

Al Capwned wrote: »

It may be a worse start than David Moyes managed, but surely you can see that glaring issues are being addressed Larry.
I was a supporter till close to the end of the Moyes reign, but I am 100% more confident that we are going in the right direction...

As is any fair minded supporter, I'd imagine.

Well you added Rojo, Shaw, Blind, Herrera, Di Maria and Falcao. You should be doing better than last season with all those additions.

Personally I'm of the opinion that Moyes had to go when he did because of the reaction to him but I don't see how things are improving. That doesn't mean that I think that Moyes got a fair chance.
You seem to be stuck in the same rut that you were last year. I expected more from Van Gaal, he got it easy coming in after Moyes did the dirty year but he hasn't improved things as of now. If he gets the time I'm sure he will.

kryogen

eagle eye wrote: »

Well you added Rojo, Shaw, Blind, Herrera, Di Maria and Falcao. You should be doing better than last season with all those additions.

Personally I'm of the opinion that Moyes had to go when he did because of the reaction to him but I don't see how things are improving. That doesn't mean that I think that Moyes got a fair chance.
You seem to be stuck in the same rut that you were last year. I expected more from Van Gaal, he got it easy coming in after Moyes did the dirty year but he hasn't improved things as of now. If he gets the time I'm sure he will.

I would liken it to your stance on how the Patriots and the coaches were doing after the first few games this season. That is exactly how I feel about this current situation.

eagle eye

kryogen wrote: »

I would liken it to your stance on how the Patriots and the coaches were doing after the first few games this season. That is exactly how I feel about this current situation.

Its a completely different situation though, in the case of the Patriots it was the same head coach/offensive and defensive co-ordinators.

A new man at the top needs time to do his thing. Moyes did not get enough time, Van Gaal comes in then after Moyes does the dirty work and he should have already improved them. The players he has brought in have not made a huge difference. I was surprised that he didn't look to strengthen the defense more and it could be the reason United fail, if they do.

He does deserve to get the time to get it right though but they should be better than last year already considering how much money was spent.

irishfeen

I don't really understand why people are so down about the performance yesterday. Chelsea have the best defence in the league by a county mile... If they had to throw a winger, a midfielder, a 19 year old from the youths handed his PL debut in September alongside Luke Shaw at the back against any PL team I fully expect them to lose points.

We are being absolutely killed with injuries - if we had everyone fit and a defence that goes on a 5, 6, 7 unbroken run together then results will come thick and fast. Our defensive crisis is unprecedented, its Murphy's law x2. The 3 points yesterday was a great result, not a great performance but fcuk it a clean sheet against any PL team with that at the back is an achievement in itself.

Cantona's Collars

irishfeen wrote: »

I don't really understand why people are so down about the performance yesterday. Chelsea have the best defence in the league by a county mile... If they had to throw a winger, a midfielder, a 19 year old from the youths handed his PL debut in September alongside Luke Shaw at the back against any PL team I fully expect them to lose points.

We are being absolutely killed with injuries - if we had everyone fit and a defence that goes on a 5, 6, 7 unbroken run together then results will come thick and fast. Our defensive crisis is unprecedented, its Murphy's law x2. The 3 points yesterday was a great result, not a great performance but fcuk it a clean sheet against any PL team with that at the back is an achievement in itself.

Yes we won but the performance was just so lethargic.Our defense wasn't really tested at all but we lacked the speed & imagination to break down Palace despite having 72% of the ball.Rooney for all his endeavour was poor creatively,RVP was virtually a passenger.Januzaj was poor but in fairness he had Valencia behind him who's terrified of going forward and helping him double up on the fullback.Di Maria had an injury scare before the game & wasn't on form.
Maybe it was just one of those games where the result is more important than the performance.
For the goal,I noticed how Fellaini spotted Val in space out wide & turned to pass it infield rather than give it to him.I reckon he knew giving it out to him would lead to it either going backwards or be smashed against the defenders shins.

jaykay74

Larry Wildman wrote: »

What is your confidence based on? I see us lurching from one disaster to the next. Nothing is being done to address the Van Persie issue. Our defence is shocking. For me, it's fourth or "get out Louis". Time will tell.

meanwhile last week....

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Van Gaal should be sacked and a team should be built around De Gea, Shaw, Blind, Di Maria and Rooney. Everyone else is just mediocrity personified (excluding Falcao who we're yet to really see).

You've changed your tune, you wanted him sacked immediately last week. Why have you changed your mind ?

Adamocovic

I really don't understand why people say we are the same as last year, if not worse. Results wise maybe, but most fans would agree that we are going in the right direction. The style of play is improving and more importantly the confidence is improving.

We've had so many injuries that players who we didn't think would feature for another while have been given chances. Players like Blackett, Wilson, McNair. All players we thought were promising and have done well, but before this season we wouldnt have thought they would be seeing too much game time. Those 3 combined have made 14 appearances so far this season in only 11 games. They have played well mind you but still shows the amount of injuries we have faced.

I liked Moyes don't get me wrong, but in my view he made little changes and seemed hesitant. LVG on the other hand seems very self confident in his decisions and ideas, and you can see the confidence rubbing off on the players. Yes LVG reign hasn't been great as of yet but he has had to deal with a lot in terms of changes and injuries.

Just like in the Moyes era there are some fans who are already calling for LVGs head. I don't see how we can fully judge his performance until the end of the season like most level headed fans did with Moyes last season. People make out that every United fan in the world was calling for Moyes to be sacked after every game that didn't go to plan, and give out that we don't do the same for LVG.

In reality most level headed fans hoped Moyes would do well and fully wanted him to do for the entirety of his spell with us. A lot of us were upset it didn't work out but thats football, it's completely pointless to compare LVG now to Moyes or to even talk about sacking him. Wait and see how we do first before condemning him.

I'm sorry for the long winded post but I really am sick of people complaining about United fans having "blind faith" in LVG. I would call it more of a balanced belief to be honest.

kryogen

eagle eye wrote: »

Its a completely different situation though, in the case of the Patriots it was the same head coach/offensive and defensive co-ordinators.

A new man at the top needs time to do his thing. Moyes did not get enough time, Van Gaal comes in then after Moyes does the dirty work and he should have already improved them. The players he has brought in have not made a huge difference. I was surprised that he didn't look to strengthen the defense more and it could be the reason United fail, if they do.

He does deserve to get the time to get it right though but they should be better than last year already considering how much money was spent.

Not like for like naturally, but just that things need time to be worked out and click, even if they look terrible sometimes they generally aren't as bad as they seem.

Without getting into the transfers as we will have basic disagreements there, he strengthened the defence, he brought in a new first choice left back and centre back, bringing the number of centre backs at the club to 4 first teamsers then the likes of Blackett and McNair etc as backup, really should be enough in those positions in all honesty.

The team is working out the kinks, like the Pats, the offence is not clicking just yet while new players get used to playing together/system, like the Pats. The D will get better once players return to it and get used to playing together on some sort of consistent basis, like the Pats and so on.

You look at the summer signings, Shaw, wasn't fit after the world cup, took a while to get up to speed, starting to show his worth now, Rojo, injured, Herrera, injured, still not 100%, Falcao, injured, Blind has been good and an ever present and Di Maria who made a fantastic start but has been kept quiet since, he needs someone else to take a bit of the attacking burden as it is too easy for teams to focus on cutting off supply to and from him to stop us playing.

Its not actually been a team largely different to that of last season yet, the defence has been make shift every week, wingers and central midfielders playing there at this point, the whole team is suffering because of that, yet the style of play is better, the possession play is better, the team is starting to function better as a unit, both going forward and defensively. The progression is there to be seen and like last season when points followed performance, points will follow performance this season

We got away with some games last year while playing absolute ****e for a while, and the performances just continued to get worse. This year we have been punished more often for the mistakes but you can see the performance improving and the results follow. Of that I have no doubt.

As you say, if given the time he will get it right, there is a lot of panic/negativity and fear left over from last season, I understand that, but Louis Van Gaal is not David Moyes. He has been there and done it at top clubs, if you analyse his record his teams have often started slowly under him and just got stronger and stronger over the course of a season. The first 11 games could certainly have gone better, but it is foolish to read too much into early season form, look at Southampton and West Ham for example, if you are to judge them on the first 10 or 11 games they are going to be genuine top four and in Southamptons case, title challengers, but the reality is that is very unlikely.

United will continue to improve over the coming year and as long as top four is achieved he has certainly earned himself another season to hopefully launch a title challenge with next year while continuing his overhaul of the clubs methods, from bottom to top.

irishfeen

zerks wrote: »

Yes we won but the performance was just so lethargic.Our defense wasn't really tested at all but we lacked the speed & imagination to break down Palace despite having 72% of the ball.Rooney for all his endeavour was poor creatively,RVP was virtually a passenger.Januzaj was poor but in fairness he had Valencia behind him who's terrified of going forward and helping him double up on the fullback.Di Maria had an injury scare before the game & wasn't on form.
Maybe it was just one of those games where the result is more important than the performance.
For the goal,I noticed how Fellaini spotted Val in space out wide & turned to pass it infield rather than give it to him.I reckon he knew giving it out to him would lead to it either going backwards or be smashed against the defenders shins.

You see we just seem nervous because those in front don't seem to fully commit themselves forward, we seem to be using the easy pass a bit much and not looking for that defence splitting thru ball.. IMO that's because we seem to prefer to prick around with the ball with nice easy passes in case we inadvertently put our make shift defence under pressure.

I fully expect when we sort out the back that the hard maybe risky pass will be on again and we will reap the rewards. You really can't blame the lads in the middle, even Rooney from playing the easy, slow pass to help out the lads at the back.

Nalz

jaykay74 wrote: »

You've changed your tune, you wanted him sacked immediately last week. Why have you changed your mind ?

Stop reacting to him!!! :-)

Valmont

Does anyone else think Mata should be starting instead of Rooney? He's a shadow of the player he once was in my opinion.

irishfeen

Valmont wrote: »

Does anyone else think Mata should be starting instead of Rooney? He's a shadow of the player he once was in my opinion.

Rooney could have got 2 yesterday and should have scored v City... I would be more inclined to drop RVP.

Billy86

Valmont wrote: »

Does anyone else think Mata should be starting instead of Rooney? He's a shadow of the player he once was in my opinion.

They should both be starting, with Mata behind Rooney behind Falcao/RVP in my opinion.

Cantona's Collars

irishfeen wrote: »

You see we just seem nervous because those in front don't seem to fully commit themselves forward, we seem to be using the easy pass a bit much and not looking for that defence splitting thru ball.. IMO that's because we seem to prefer to prick around with the ball with nice easy passes in case we inadvertently put our make shift defence under pressure.

I fully expect when we sort out the back that the hard maybe risky pass will be on again and we will reap the rewards. You really can't blame the lads in the middle, even Rooney from playing the easy, slow pass to help out the lads at the back.

There was one stage in the 2nd half where you could hear the groans from the crowd as we passed the ball around at the back.De Gea got more touches of the ball in those minutes than in the whole of the rest of the game.
We had too many conservative players on the field,Carrick,Blind & Valencia are 3 who specialise in tidy,safe passing which keeps the ball but will hardly hurt the opposition.Herrera should have been given some game time yesterday & Rooney pushed on into a forward role.
At least Falcao & Rafael confirmed they'll be fit for the Arsenal game,time to give RVP a rest methinks.

Adamocovic

Valmont wrote: »

Does anyone else think Mata should be starting instead of Rooney? He's a shadow of the player he once was in my opinion.

Honestly I would have Mata starting, but I wouldn't drop Rooney. I think he's been playing well for us. If anything ,based on form, RVP would be dropped before Rooney in my opinion.

kryogen

zerks wrote: »

There was one stage in the 2nd half where you could hear the groans from the crowd as we passed the ball around at the back.De Gea got more touches of the ball in those minutes than in the whole of the rest of the game.
We had too many conservative players on the field,Carrick,Blind & Valencia are 3 who specialise in tidy,safe passing which keeps the ball but will hardly hurt the opposition.Herrera should have been given some game time yesterday & Rooney pushed on into a forward role.
At least Falcao & Rafael confirmed they'll be fit for the Arsenal game,time to give RVP a rest methinks.

At that point we were winning though and they were just trying to kill the game as they have been so often of not doing, I think a little nervousness and eagerness to hold onto the ball in a safe manner, making the opposition chase and tire themselves out is understandable.

Van Gaal picked up on it in his post match interview, he was happy they decided to kill the game, but he would have wanted them to do it by passing it around further up the pitch, it makes things easier.

irishfeen

zerks wrote: »

There was one stage in the 2nd half where you could hear the groans from the crowd as we passed the ball around at the back.De Gea got more touches of the ball in those minutes than in the whole of the rest of the game.
We had too many conservative players on the field,Carrick,Blind & Valencia are 3 who specialise in tidy,safe passing which keeps the ball but will hardly hurt the opposition.Herrera should have been given some game time yesterday & Rooney pushed on into a forward role.
At least Falcao & Rafael confirmed they'll be fit for the Arsenal game,time to give RVP a rest methinks.

Yep it was almost a panic to simplicate it too much to keep the ball - we were going nowhere but passing it for the sake of it because it was easy - but tbh though you cant blame the lads for that.

homerjay2005

irishfeen wrote: »

Our defensive crisis is unprecedented,

there is nothing unprecedented about Jones, Rafael, Evans and Smalling being injured (and you could say all at once either for that matter), when its been happening since they all joined the club.

most realistic fans knew this was going to happen yet it seemed that nobody within the club planned adequately for it during the summer. theres fundamental issues with the fitness and injury prevention set up at the club and its been there for 6 years now - its about time that it was sorted once and for all but it looks like the club just dont know how.

PhlegmyMoses

homerjay2005 wrote: »

there is nothing unprecedented about Jones, Rafael, Evans and Smalling being injured (and you could say all at once either for that matter), when its been happening since they all joined the club.

most realistic fans knew this was going to happen yet it seemed that nobody within the club planned adequately for it during the summer. theres fundamental issues with the fitness and injury prevention set up at the club and its been there for 6 years now - its about time that it was sorted once and for all but it looks like the club just dont know how.

Are you really that confident that it's the club's fault? What evidence do you have? And please don't say the volume of injuries as this by itself doesn't prove anything. Correlation does not equal causation.

kryogen

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Are you really that confident that it's the club's fault? What evidence do you have? And please don't say the volume of injuries as this by itself doesn't prove anything. Correlation does not equal causation.

Aye, Arsenal have a shocking injury record also.

Billy86

homerjay2005 wrote: »

there is nothing unprecedented about Jones, Rafael, Evans and Smalling AND BLACKETT AND CARRICK AND SHAW AND ROJO AND MCNAIR being injured (and you could say all at once either for that matter), when its been happening since they all joined the club.

You forgot some.

K4t

Al Capwned wrote: »

Are we now considered a mid-table club in your mind?
Not a chance mate.

Yes, we most certainly are unless we achieve top 4 this season.

Adamocovic wrote: »

I see a lot of talk about Pique wanting to leave Barcelona. Would it be worth a punt to try bring him back?

No. He gets found out regularly at Barca and is more of a luxury defender to have rather than one you would want to rebuild a defence.

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Jim Jones also believed in what he was doing. I have no faith in Van Gaal whatsoever because I base my opinion on what I see - A fortune spent on players and more toxic results than David Moyes managed.

Understood, nevertheless he deserves just as much as a chance as Moyes was given. And there has been improvement in the play, just not enough to justify the transfers yet.

irishfeen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

there is nothing unprecedented about Jones, Rafael, Evans and Smalling being injured (and you could say all at once either for that matter), when its been happening since they all joined the club.

most realistic fans knew this was going to happen yet it seemed that nobody within the club planned adequately for it during the summer. theres fundamental issues with the fitness and injury prevention set up at the club and its been there for 6 years now - its about time that it was sorted once and for all but it looks like the club just dont know how.

You can throw Rojo into that aswell, you are right that during the summer we should have strengthened but I'm sure the club and LVG imagined that they would get injuries but nothing to this extent and we were solid enough during pre season.

As you say there must be something wrong, just look at Chelsea - almost without fail they will have at least the 3 first team players at the back fit while we are just lucky to have 3 fit for a few games in the entire season. You cannot win the PL or go near with the defence we had yesterday.

PhlegmyMoses

Right now, 5 of the 7 injuries we have are impact based, rather than musculature in nature. Hard to see what the club can do about this.

Cantona's Collars

Very poignant piece on Sky now about the footballers who took part in WWI.

The first player ever to score at Old Trafford fought in WWI,took part in a night raid & was never seen again.

irishfeen

zerks wrote: »

Very poignant piece on Sky now about the footballers who took part in WWI.

The first player ever to score at Old Trafford fought in WWI,took part in a night raid & was never seen again.

Don't take this the wrong way zerks but politics have absolutely no place in sport, for some reason Sky and other broadcasters seem to be pushing an agenda year on year.

homerjay2005

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Are you really that confident that it's the club's fault?

yes.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

What evidence do you have? And please don't say the volume of injuries as this by itself doesn't prove anything. Correlation does not equal causation.

injury crisis after injury crisis is plenty of evidence, no matter how little you want to make of it. once every now and then is normal, but this has been happening since 2009 almost every year.

injuries happen, but we are at 35 since July and vast majority of them are tears or strains. go to any sports clinics, or speak to any decent physio, S & C coach etc etc and they will tell you that repeated injuries like this means that the medical set up is failing. in fact i did a S & C course about 3 years ago and the lad that was giving it said that if your players are getting injured, then you are failing at your job.

anyway, this has been discussed to the death before and people like yourself seem to believe there is nothing that can be done. i hope that LVG will sort it by getting the right people recruited (and apparently one new person has already come in as he is shocked at whats going on).

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Right now, 5 of the 7 injuries we have are impact based, rather than musculature in nature. Hard to see what the club can do about this.

ah thats ok so, only the 30 muscle related injuries so since August....be grand. of the current 7 injuries, only 2 of them happened while playing. not sure how you can say Rafael, Jones, young were impact injuries as you dont know how they happened. Falcao "got a kick" apparently.

Cantona's Collars

irishfeen wrote: »

Don't take this the wrong way zerks but politics have absolutely no place in sport, for some reason Sky and other broadcasters seem to be pushing an agenda year on year.

I just take it at face value considering it's the 100th anniversary.It's just a nice touch that lads who lined out for their clubs and went & died in WWI are remembered.
I don't bother worrying about any political agenda that may be behind it.

Cantona's Collars

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Right now, 5 of the 7 injuries we have are impact based, rather than musculature in nature. Hard to see what the club can do about this.

Get Phil Jones to train on his own.