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Winter Training

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭shotgunmcos


    Agree it is beneficial but not 20% of your overall training time.
    Depends on what phase of training you are at. 20% S&C may be OK for prep. Or if strength was a development area. Better yet incorporating SBR technically specific S&C.

    However with a 10 hour week its probably better to focus that 20% ,on pure technique, swim & run drills...


  • Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Nwm2


    My advice was based on the assumption that he is training for tri, after all it is a tri forum. Doing a plank for 5mins in transition ain't going to help your times.

    Your advice is probably right for 90%+ of people. But there are enough exceptions that it's worthwhile digging a bit IMO.

    Not referring to you JB as you're clued in, but I cringe when I see 20-something single hotshots dispensing training advice to all and sundry, not knowing or caring that those doing the asking are in their late 50s. This happens more than you might think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭shansey


    Nwm2 wrote: »
    Your starting point needs to be much earlier than asking 'what training should I do'. I wouldn't give real advice without knowing:

    1. What are your goals for 2015 (races to do, performance desired)
    - Included in this is whether triathlon is your sporting priority and to what level you want to prioritise this above all else. (For example, if overall fitness and health is your goal, then 2 hrs S&C may be perfect for you. If getting best placings in triathlon with 10 hrs training is the goal, then it probably is not.)

    Goal is to do IM 70.3 in May


    2. What is your current performance level & expertise
    - Recent triathlons/duathlons results

    Usually come top 10/20 in club races and around 70/80 in NS races.

    - Recent 5k/10k run times etc

    5k just under 20 mins 10k last time was 42 mins


    - Flat 10k/20k bike time trial results (bit tricky this one)

    20k TT about 33/34 mins


    - 400m or 750m swim times

    750 swim just under 14 mins.

    3. What is your sporting background (maybe you were a fish or x-country runner in your youth, maybe you never trained at all)

    N/A

    4. What has your recent training looked like

    2 runs 2 bikes and two swims plus some extra. not enough structure and planning is my problem

    5. What is your age, weight and sex

    30 yrs old, 74kg, 5'10''

    6. What is your injury history, and medical limitations (consult a medical practitioner before starting this or any exercise program!!!)

    Got knocked off bike in january, some bone bruising on out side of knee. still acts up now and then but bareable.

    7. How many hours a week can you train and how are they distributed across the week

    i can do 10 to 12 hours per week

    8. What activities are you currently doing that you want to keep (eg your group ride on Saturdays, or your soccer game on Wednesdays)

    pool session monday eve is the only static.

    9. What equipment/facilities do you have (GPS watch, HR monitor, road bike, TT bike, turbo trainer, treadmill, pool etc)

    all of the above.
    .


    Not sure if you actually wanted the answers or if you were speaking rhetoriacally but they're there anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Nwm2


    shansey wrote: »
    Not sure if you actually wanted the answers or if you were speaking rhetoriacally but they're there anyway.

    How well do you want to do in the 70.3? Want to just finish in a reasonable time, or do you want to do as well as you can given your 10-12 hours per week? Willing to dedicate all your 10-12 hours to the goal of doing as well as you can?

    Where is the 70.3? (So we know is it hilly, or hot etc)


  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭shansey


    Nwm2 wrote: »
    How well do you want to do in the 70.3? Want to just finish in a reasonable time, or do you want to do as well as you can given your 10-12 hours per week? Willing to dedicate all your 10-12 hours to the goal of doing as well as you can?

    Where is the 70.3? (So we know is it hilly, or hot etc)

    Want to do as well as possible.. Under 5 hours anyway..

    Willing to dedicate the 10-12 hours to Tri completely.. Willing to increase that time too as time progresses..


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  • Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Nwm2


    shansey wrote: »
    Want to do as well as possible.. Under 5 hours anyway..

    Willing to dedicate the 10-12 hours to Tri completely.. Willing to increase that time too as time progresses..


    You didn't give much history so I couldn't tell your rate of improvement and when you started. You also didn't give your triathlon times, so I don't know if you've done any Olympic distance events, and what the difference between your performances in both are.

    But, my take is that you're reasonably fast at short distances, above average anyway. You have a fairly flat performance profile across the sports, though a bit slow on the swim (typical of someone who started swimming late in life). That's fine for HIM since 10% of the event is in the water, but you still have to be a stronger biker/runner to compensate. (Still, I would strongly encourage you to get a decent swim coach and see him/her every couple of weeks either one-on-one or in a very small group, especially if you are not seeing continued improvement in swim times).

    You are not at 5hr HIM standard, and reaching that standard by May won't be easy, but it is do-able with comittment. HIM is a huge shock to some people who do reasonably well at sprints and even Olympics. I've seen people with roughly your times go on to do 5:45-6:00 hours, usually struggling through the run.

    You need to focus on become a strong biker and strong runner in the next 8 months, while improving your swim enough that you exit the swim feeling fresh and warmed up for the main part of the race.

    To get 5 hours, you might be looking at (just as an example, and depending on how flat the course is):

    Swim - 38 min (incl transition)
    Bike - 2:40 hrs (incl transition)
    Run - 1:42hrs

    A 2:40 bike (incl transition) is >34km/hr over 90k with a half marathon to follow, versus your all-out 20k TT time of 35.2km/hr. So you need to be pushing this 20k TT benchmark to closer to 38-39km/hr. A good position on the bike, and some other aero tricks like helmet and wheels, are critical here.

    Your 42min open 10k time (I presume it was a 10k road race), has McMillan very optimistically predicting a 1:33hr open half marathon time. You can see how hard it is to run a 1:42 in your 70.3. You need to be getting to a sub 40min open 10k.

    I would start on something like the plan below. This is what the first couple of weeks would look like. You will see that the emphasis is on bike and run, with frequent running. There is no day off, but recovery on Mon and Fri with a 30 min easy run. Make sure you get lots of sleep however. There are a couple of optional sessions in there. But try to hit the runs, including the 30 min runs as they are important.

    2j3lj03.jpg

    LT bike: 15 min warm up, 4 x 6 min ON, 4 min OFF. (ON = 95-100% of LTHR - see Friel link posted earlier)

    VO2 bike (turbo): 25 min warm up with some short hard efforts, 4 x 3min ON, 3 min OFF, 10 min cool down (ON = very hard, OFF = easy spinning)

    VO2 run (treadmill?): 15 min warm up, 10 x 1:30 ON, 1:30 OFF, 15 min cool down (ON = 5k pace, 3:55 min/km)

    Easy/long run = 5:00/km or slower

    To increase the training load, over the weeks the VO2/LT intervals get longer or there are more of them, the long run and bike get longer to hit 2hrs/4hrs respectively.

    The run program would change after a few weeks and take a break from the VO2 run session, some tempo running and some hills would be added.

    In the longer run, the plan would get more 70.3-specific as you get closer to the race.

    There are many ways to skin a cat, and this is just one option to organise the week, would be interested in hearing from some of the experienced posters on alternatives.


  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭shansey


    Well, that is in-depth! you obviously put some work in there. Very grateful.

    Would you start this as soon as possible and just increase the training load to vary it throughout the year?


  • Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Nwm2


    shansey wrote: »
    Well, that is in-depth! you obviously put some work in there. Very grateful.

    Would you start this as soon as possible and just increase the training load to vary it throughout the year?

    Start immediately, by doing your lactate threshold heart rate test on the bike (presuming you have no power meter) then into the program on Monday.

    Very gradually increase training load as I have mentioned. More significant changes would happen in about 6 weeks time, but that basic structure would stay as long it worked for you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭shansey


    Nwm2 wrote: »
    Start immediately, by doing your lactate threshold heart rate test on the bike (presuming you have no power meter) then into the program on Monday.

    Very gradually increase training load as I have mentioned. More significant changes would happen in about 6 weeks time, but that basic structure would stay as long it worked for you.


    It definitely seems like a good structure!

    The lactate test is the 30 min time trial right?

    I went on treadmill last night to test max heart rate.. Gradually increasing incline and speed.. It went up to 185.. Is that quite low?


  • Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Nwm2


    shansey wrote: »
    It definitely seems like a good structure!

    The lactate test is the 30 min time trial right?

    I went on treadmill last night to test max heart rate.. Gradually increasing incline and speed.. It went up to 185.. Is that quite low?

    LT test is the 30 min TT on the bike. HR numbers are different from bike to run.

    185 is fine for now, but I wouldn't be guided by HR on the run anyway - pace is better IMO, but no harm to keep HR monitored.

    Right, I'm well over my 2 posts per week self imposed limit, so I will sign off and let others contribute. Good luck with your training.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭shotgunmcos


    Nwm2 wrote: »
    I would start on something like the plan below. This is what the first couple of weeks would look like. You will see that the emphasis is on bike and run, with frequent running. There is no day off, but recovery on Mon and Fri with a 30 min easy run. Make sure you get lots of sleep however. There are a couple of optional sessions in there. But try to hit the runs, including the 30 min runs as they are important.

    2j3lj03.jpg

    LT bike: 15 min warm up, 4 x 6 min ON, 4 min OFF. (ON = 95-100% of LTHR - see Friel link posted earlier)

    VO2 bike (turbo): 25 min warm up with some short hard efforts, 4 x 3min ON, 3 min OFF, 10 min cool down (ON = very hard, OFF = easy spinning)

    VO2 run (treadmill?): 15 min warm up, 10 x 1:30 ON, 1:30 OFF, 15 min cool down (ON = 5k pace, 3:55 min/km)

    Easy/long run = 5:00/km or slower

    To increase the training load, over the weeks the VO2/LT intervals get longer or there are more of them, the long run and bike get longer to hit 2hrs/4hrs respectively.

    The run program would change after a few weeks and take a break from the VO2 run session, some tempo running and some hills would be added.

    In the longer run, the plan would get more 70.3-specific as you get closer to the race.

    There are many ways to skin a cat, and this is just one option to organise the week, would be interested in hearing from some of the experienced posters on alternatives.
    VO2 Tue, VO2 wed and LT thurs is a lot of intensity packed into a short space. VO2 particularly needs an easy day after it.

    Each to his own but I'd be a fan of putting work into the long bike and doing a couple of short brick runs off the key bikes.
    I don't see a need for VO2 running in a HIM program

    10-12 hours is loads (based on info supplied) to get a sub 5 HIM. I'd recommend building your week around a core bike and a core run. Make them your must do sessions and ensure you are feeling good on the day.
    Core bike: 2 hrs with 3*10-15min at HIM pace, progressing to 3hrs inc 3*30 min with a 15 min run off
    Core run: build to 90 min with some cadence, hills, 3*10 min @ 10k etc to keep interesting.

    Bike 2 is an eeeeasy 1.5-2hr
    Bike 3 short V02 pyramid (1min on, 1 off, 22, 33, 44, 33, 22, 11) start with 4*2min and progress the intervals. 15-20 min run off (1 HR for whole session)

    2*40-50 min easy runs
    1 technical swim, 1 aerobic intervals 400s or 800s, 1 LT intervals 100s, 200s. Swap the longer intervals for your wetsuit and OW when you can.

    At peak 5.5hrs bike, 3.5hrs run, 3hrs swim and half an hour left over for your foam roller :)

    Apart from that note I must say thank you to Nwm2 for your attention to novice questions and the detailed responses!


  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭shansey


    VO2 Tue, VO2 wed and LT thurs is a lot of intensity packed into a short space. VO2 particularly needs an easy day after it.

    Each to his own but I'd be a fan of putting work into the long bike and doing a couple of short brick runs off the key bikes.
    I don't see a need for VO2 running in a HIM program

    10-12 hours is loads (based on info supplied) to get a sub 5 HIM. I'd recommend building your week around a core bike and a core run. Make them your must do sessions and ensure you are feeling good on the day.
    Core bike: 2 hrs with 3*10-15min at HIM pace, progressing to 3hrs inc 3*30 min with a 15 min run off
    Core run: build to 90 min with some cadence, hills, 3*10 min @ 10k etc to keep interesting.

    Bike 2 is an eeeeasy 1.5-2hr
    Bike 3 short V02 pyramid (1min on, 1 off, 22, 33, 44, 33, 22, 11) start with 4*2min and progress the intervals. 15-20 min run off (1 HR for whole session)

    2*40-50 min easy runs
    1 technical swim, 1 aerobic intervals 400s or 800s, 1 LT intervals 100s, 200s. Swap the longer intervals for your wetsuit and OW when you can.

    At peak 5.5hrs bike, 3.5hrs run, 3hrs swim and half an hour left over for your foam roller :)

    Apart from that note I must say thank you to Nwm2 for your attention to novice questions and the detailed responses!

    A lot of very sound advice here. I'm really very impressed.

    What I am seeing and taking from all advice is that I shouldn't be afraid of intervals in the off-season and that I should have a reeeeally easy day after.

    Would Core run on a sat and core bike on a sunday be too much?

    I take it the Vo2 is an almost all-out pace?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭shotgunmcos


    shansey wrote: »
    A lot of very sound advice here. I'm really very impressed.

    What I am seeing and taking from all advice is that I shouldn't be afraid of intervals in the off-season and that I should have a reeeeally easy day after.

    Would Core run on a sat and core bike on a sunday be too much?

    I take it the Vo2 is an almost all-out pace?

    No You may carry a little fatigue from the run to the bike next day but neither session enters the red zone so grand. A good sleep after a good feed works wonders. Make Friday an easy day, either off or a morning swim.

    VO2 is basically giving it guns. Not 100% as you may start with just 3-4*2 mins and they will hurt. Ultimately VO2 is 95-98% territory or 2-6 mins where you are close to Max at the end of the rep. 2 min reps are enough to start. It takes a few sessions to hold the intensity for 3,4 mins etc..


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