Winter Training

shansey

What does everyone do in the off season?

Some say long and "easy" miles to build a base..

Some say less is more and its all about the quality of the miles yet doing intervals in the winter can cause burnout later in the year..

Lots of contradictions..curious to see what more seasoned lads are doing..

Oryx

Periodisation vs polarisation. Two different methods of training. Depends what suits you and the level you're at.

sconhome

shansey wrote: »

What does everyone do in the off season?

All depends on what you are planning for next year.

If racing hard and early IM it will be different to someone doing NS racing through the season.

For many 'off' season is a chance to have fun, take the pressure off, train at low intensity and plan ahead.

niamh.foley

I am working off two Training Plans that are both six weeks which will take me to Christmas Week,

take a Week off and back into Training for 4 Duathlons that will be coming up before the start of the Season.


Every Second Sunday now till Jan, I will be doing 20/20

10min Warmup at nice slow pace @6.40km
10-15min foam rolling
then onto 20min Bike as hard as i can 95-100 Rpm for 20 mins
20 min Run @ 4:50 - 5:10km
5min Rest
Repeat x3 to be build up till i can reach 5.

That should see me through the winter indoors. still be OW swimming Every Saturday if weather is good.

Nwm2

Oryx wrote: »

Periodisation vs polarisation. Two different methods of training. Depends what suits you and the level you're at.

These are not either-or, you can/should periodise your polarised training, if you choose to go the polarised route. Which is what the elite athletes typically do.

littlemsfickle

niamh.foley wrote: »

I am working off two Training Plans that are both six weeks which will take me to Christmas Week,

take a Week off and back into Training for 4 Duathlons that will be coming up before the start of the Season.


Every Second Sunday now till Jan, I will be doing 20/20

10min Warmup at nice slow pace @6.40km
10-15min foam rolling
then onto 20min Bike as hard as i can 95-100 Rpm for 20 mins
20 min Run @ 4:50 - 5:10km
5min Rest
Repeat x3 to be build up till i can reach 5.

That should see me through the winter indoors. still be OW swimming Every Saturday if weather is good.

Just out of interest, where did you get that programme from? I've never seen anything like that before.

niamh.foley

littlemsfickle wrote: »

Just out of interest, where did you get that programme from? I've never seen anything like that before.

Ironman.com i think or else

http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com/

which do have great training tips.

I did something like that before could only manage to get to 2 repeats before i though i was going to die.

the two programs i am working on are..
first one is smash your 10k PB
http://mos.triradar.com/Training_Plans/TRI60.zone_plan.pdf

followed by Ironman 70.3 Winter Training.
http://mos.triradar.com/Training_Plans/TRI63.Ironman_70.3_off-season_training_plan.pdf

sconhome

Not a bad 10k plan.

Are you doing those 20/20 along with the 70.3 plan? Is that not risking overuse injury putting that HIT training into an eisting program?

littlemsfickle

Yeah, you really need to be careful if mixing plans that you don't overdo it. Each is designed to give a specific training load assuming that you're recovering in between sessions, not working hard in another discipline.

niamh.foley

I am currently working on the 10k plan

which i am skipping my Run for my 20/20,

when it comes to the Half Ironman Plan i will have to see more then likely i will do them with the Days monday is set to Recovery and drop the Run Endurance.

Nwm2

shansey wrote: »

What does everyone do in the off season?

Some say long and "easy" miles to build a base..

Some say less is more and its all about the quality of the miles yet doing intervals in the winter can cause burnout later in the year..

Lots of contradictions..curious to see what more seasoned lads are doing..

My winter was:
4 x swimming (4 hrs total)
1 x LT ride, 1 x Vo2 ride, 1 x easy ride, 1 x long ride (6.5hrs total)
1 x VO2 run, 2 x easy run, 1 x tempo run, 1 x long run (5.5 hrs total)

This was geared towards NS Oly/Sprint. I also did a HIM & IM, although the winter training would be the same IM or not.

Training was not quite fully polarised, probably more like 80% Z1, 10% Z2, 10% Z3

tunney

Nwm2 wrote: »

My winter was:
4 x swimming (4 hrs total)
1 x LT ride, 1 x Vo2 ride, 1 x easy ride, 1 x long ride (6.5hrs total)
1 x VO2 run, 2 x easy run, 1 x tempo run, 1 x long run (5.5 hrs total)

This was geared towards NS Oly/Sprint. I also did a HIM & IM, although the winter training would be the same IM or not.

Training was not quite fully polarised, probably more like 80% Z1, 10% Z2, 10% Z3

Some would argue that using those zones and percentages that it's not anyway polarised. Sure there's not a typo there?

Nwm2

tunney wrote: »

Some would argue that using those zones and percentages that it's not anyway polarised. Sure there's not a typo there?

Some would argue that, yes, and probably strictly correct. But an 'ideal' 80:0:20 is barely achievable even in controlled studies, and a distribution such as mine above is typical enough if you look at Seiler's 2009 review.

No typo. Helped to get me to roughly the same IM bike+run split as your Austria 2010 Tunney, on much less talent (let's ignore the swim).

tunney

Nwm2 wrote: »

Some would argue that, yes, and probably strictly correct. But an 'ideal' 80:0:20 is barely achievable even in controlled studies, and a distribution such as mine above is typical enough if you look at Seiler's 2009 review.

No typo. Helped to get me to roughly the same IM bike+run split as your Austria 2010 Tunney, on much less talent (let's ignore the swim).

Wasn't the percentages that I was referring to was the z3. Largely considered to be a waste (in this approach). A "nice hard" rather than actually hard. But I'd it forays your boat.

Nwm2

tunney wrote: »

Wasn't the percentages that I was referring to was the z3. Largely considered to be a waste (in this approach). A "nice hard" rather than actually hard. But I'd it forays your boat.

Aahhh, crap, I see the confusion (I think). My Z1/2/3 are not friel/coggan. Here, Z1 < vt1, Z3 > vt2. So Z3 is LT and above. Sorry.

niamh.foley

one thing i could never get my head around is Z1 Z2 Z3 or 80% 50% off max,

i did do some Threshold training to find my max but never worked for me.

shansey

so basically none of the mid tier training..either long and easy or fast and hard??

How do people determine their heart rate zones on here? there seem to be number of different methods?

Have notions of a half iron man in May and then just NS races for the summer.

Sometimes I think people get over technical on these things or maybe i'm just green.

i always thought doing HIIT during the winter might cause you to peak a bit early..

Also hearing brick training is a bit useless

Nwm2

shansey wrote: »

so basically none of the mid tier training..either long and easy or fast and hard??

Observational studies of elite athletes show that about 80% of their training is easy (Z1), with the remaining being divided between the 'fairly hard' (Z2) and 'really really hard' (Z3) zones. Often, though far from always, there is more 'really really hard' Z3 training than 'fairly hard' Z2.

Separately, there are a clutch of controlled studies where a 'polarised' approach of 80% Z1/20% Z3 outperforms a 'threshold' approach with a lot of Z2 training.

So clearly if you are an elite athlete, with top 1% genetic potential, and 15-30 hours training per week this is how you should train. (In fact, with 15-30 hours per week to train, 80% of your training will be easy out of necessity).

On the off chance that you do not fall into that category, what's the right answer? Let's say you are new to the sport, relatively untrained and only have 3 hours per week to train across each of 3 sports - 9 hours in total. I'd guess that's true of the average Irish triathlete.

In this case, there is practically no evidence about what the best way to train is.

However, in this case, you are so far from your potential that both polarised and threshold training are probably going to leave to significant improvement. Just don't make the mistake of going easy all the time.

shansey wrote: »

How do people determine their heart rate zones on here? there seem to be number of different methods?

Your training plan will reference either a percentage of maximum HR, or a percentage of lactate threshold HR (LTHR).

For Max HR use something like: http://faculty.washington.edu/crowther/Misc/RBC/heart2.shtml


For LTHR use something like: http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/joe-friel-s-quick-guide-to-setting-zones

shansey wrote: »

Sometimes I think people get over technical on these things or maybe i'm just green.

Sounds like you are green, but you might still be right.

shansey wrote: »

i always thought doing HIIT during the winter might cause you to peak a bit early..

Your training plan needs to be broken into phases with varying amounts of progressive overload, specificity, recovery etc as needed. HIIT can be done at any time, in the right context.

shansey wrote: »

Also hearing brick training is a bit useless

You can ignore that person. In the very old days, brick training was thought by some to be the be-all and end-all of triathlon training, as it was thought to solve the problem of how to run fast off the bike. That wasn't the case, but it certainly is not useless, if done with purpose. It wouldn't form the basis of my training by any means, but running for 30 mins off a long bike is a good workout for Oly/HIM/IM, and more intense workouts like 10 min Bike/5 min Run/Bike/Run/Bike/Run... is good every so often for sprint/olympic. Brick training is also time efficient.

shansey

Nwm2 wrote: »

Observational studies of elite athletes show that about 80% of their training is easy (Z1), with the remaining being divided between the 'fairly hard' (Z2) and 'really really hard' (Z3) zones. Often, though far from always, there is more 'really really hard' Z3 training than 'fairly hard' Z2.

Separately, there are a clutch of controlled studies where a 'polarised' approach of 80% Z1/20% Z3 outperforms a 'threshold' approach with a lot of Z2 training.

So clearly if you are an elite athlete, with top 1% genetic potential, and 15-30 hours training per week this is how you should train. (In fact, with 15-30 hours per week to train, 80% of your training will be easy out of necessity).

On the off chance that you do not fall into that category, what's the right answer? Let's say you are new to the sport, relatively untrained and only have 3 hours per week to train across each of 3 sports - 9 hours in total. I'd guess that's true of the average Irish triathlete.

In this case, there is practically no evidence about what the best way to train is.

However, in this case, you are so far from your potential that both polarised and threshold training are probably going to leave to significant improvement. Just don't make the mistake of going easy all the time.

You seem to know your stuff so i'm going to bombard you with questions.

I'd say I definitely fall in the typical Irish triathlete training the guts of 10hrs per week..

So say if i do a minimum of two runs per week should I make one a long zone 2 effort and the other an interval session? Similar for bike etc?

I've started a S&C program too which I plan to keep up with training. its about 1 hour 2 days a week. Is there any harm in adding this before a swim session to double up? I know most people training for strength try to keep it separate from cardio but then again they may be just bodybuilders and not endurance athletes.

I should probably change the programme every 6 weeks too.

I had planned originally to keep the next 6 weeks pretty distance based with a focus on the S&C and recovery.

Then start adding some volume for the next 6 and then intervals after that?

Any tips/constructive criticism always welcome.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

My only concern is you are spending 20% of your training week doing S&C work, sure it has its place but it seems excessive.
2 runs and 2 bikes a week does not seem like very much, how is the rest of your 10hr week made up?

somebody.else

niamh.foley wrote: »

i did do some Threshold training to find my max but never worked for me.

This sentence hurts my head. Alot like a divide by zero.

shansey wrote: »

So say if i do a minimum of two runs per week should I make one a long zone 2 effort and the other an interval session? Similar for bike etc?

Any tips/constructive criticism always welcome.

Two runs a week is less than maintenance level, far to little to be of use. Also if only running twice a week heart rates would be near useless as you'd never really get fit enough for heart rate zones to stabilise.


What I would say is that much like everyone "had to be periodised" a few years ago now everyone "has to be polarised".

If you want to do a 10/90 split hard and easy, and you do 10km of hard work running, who is going to following that up with 90km of easy running? Nope alot, like with carbo loading and ignoring the fasting aspect of the protocol where people just eat lots, people are tending to do a 10km HARD session and then do the other 20-30km running a week really really easy "cause they're polarised and sh1t".

shansey

somebody.else wrote: »

This sentence hurts my head. Alot like a divide by zero.



Two runs a week is less than maintenance level, far to little to be of use. Also if only running twice a week heart rates would be near useless as you'd never really get fit enough for heart rate zones to stabilise.


What I would say is that much like everyone "had to be periodised" a few years ago now everyone "has to be polarised".

If you want to do a 10/90 split hard and easy, and you do 10km of hard work running, who is going to following that up with 90km of easy running? Nope alot, like with carbo loading and ignoring the fasting aspect of the protocol where people just eat lots, people are tending to do a 10km HARD session and then do the other 20-30km running a week really really easy "cause they're polarised and sh1t".

So your saying this is a bit faddy??

What would you recommend? I dont see how really easy running would help me get any better.

shansey

Rayden Melodic Spokeswoman wrote: »

My only concern is you are spending 20% of your training week doing S&C work, sure it has its place but it seems excessive.
2 runs and 2 bikes a week does not seem like very much, how is the rest of your 10hr week made up?

During the season it was 2.5 hrs swimming, 2.5 hours running, 4 hours on bike and a bit of S&C.

Now, at start of off season i've upped the S&C to try correct some aches and pains i was having and doing some easier miles, just under race pace

Oryx

Rayden Melodic Spokeswoman wrote: »

My only concern is you are spending 20% of your training week doing S&C work, sure it has its place but it seems excessive.
2 runs and 2 bikes a week does not seem like very much, how is the rest of your 10hr week made up?

Over the last while Ive begun to think that S&C is the fourth triathlon discipline. As long as the stuff you do is specific to the demands tri puts on your body, it is very worthwhile.

Nwm2

shansey wrote: »

You seem to know your stuff so i'm going to bombard you with questions.

I'd say I definitely fall in the typical Irish triathlete training the guts of 10hrs per week..

So say if i do a minimum of two runs per week should I make one a long zone 2 effort and the other an interval session? Similar for bike etc?

I've started a S&C program too which I plan to keep up with training. its about 1 hour 2 days a week. Is there any harm in adding this before a swim session to double up? I know most people training for strength try to keep it separate from cardio but then again they may be just bodybuilders and not endurance athletes.

I should probably change the programme every 6 weeks too.

I had planned originally to keep the next 6 weeks pretty distance based with a focus on the S&C and recovery.

Then start adding some volume for the next 6 and then intervals after that?

Any tips/constructive criticism always welcome.

Your starting point needs to be much earlier than asking 'what training should I do'. I wouldn't give real advice without knowing:

1. What are your goals for 2015 (races to do, performance desired)
- Included in this is whether triathlon is your sporting priority and to what level you want to prioritise this above all else. (For example, if overall fitness and health is your goal, then 2 hrs S&C may be perfect for you. If getting best placings in triathlon with 10 hrs training is the goal, then it probably is not.)
2. What is your current performance level & expertise
- Recent triathlons/duathlons results
- Recent 5k/10k run times etc
- Flat 10k/20k bike time trial results (bit tricky this one)
- 400m or 750m swim times
3. What is your sporting background (maybe you were a fish or x-country runner in your youth, maybe you never trained at all)
4. What has your recent training looked like
5. What is your age, weight and sex
6. What is your injury history, and medical limitations (consult a medical practitioner before starting this or any exercise program!!!)
7. How many hours a week can you train and how are they distributed across the week
8. What activities are you currently doing that you want to keep (eg your group ride on Saturdays, or your soccer game on Wednesdays)
9. What equipment/facilities do you have (GPS watch, HR monitor, road bike, TT bike, turbo trainer, treadmill, pool etc)

With this approach we would establish your current performance, your performance goals, your limiters, and lots of other essential info. From that we would put together a training plan.

Jackyback pointed out the 2x S&C sessions. Again, that may align perfectly with your goals or it may not. So I wouldn't advise you to whether drop them or not, apart from to say that if triathlon performance is your priority, and you're relatively young, without injury issues or significant muscle imbalances/issues, then allocating 20% of 10 hours per week to S&C is likely to have you slower next year than faster.

Nwm2

shansey wrote: »

So your saying this is a bit faddy??

What would you recommend? I dont see how really easy running would help me get any better.

Actually, adding 2-3 x 30-40 minute easy running sessions may be exactly what a lot of people need to add to their training programs to get their running to the next level. Running really benefits from frequency, and from lots of easy miles.

Counter-intuitive, but it can be the key. As usual, it all DEPENDS.......

Stevo1983

Need to badly work on my swimming over the Winter.

shotgunmcos

Zones

What do you use?

The old 5 zone off MHR/RHR/HRR?

Or

3 Zone LT1 (OBLA)/LT2/AT version?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

My advice was based on the assumption that he is training for tri, after all it is a tri forum. Doing a plank for 5mins in transition ain't going to help your times.

Agree though some context is needed but generally 2 runs a week is way too low.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Oryx wrote: »

Over the last while Ive begun to think that S&C is the fourth triathlon discipline. As long as the stuff you do is specific to the demands tri puts on your body, it is very worthwhile.

Agree it is beneficial but not 20% of your overall training time.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

shansey wrote: »

During the season it was 2.5 hrs swimming, 2.5 hours running, 4 hours on bike and a bit of S&C.

Now, at start of off season i've upped the S&C to try correct some aches and pains i was having and doing some easier miles, just under race pace

So were both your runs 1hr+ 2.5hrs should easily see you getting 4 30/40mim runs in a week, 2 easy and 2 with possibly some work, again dependant on what distances you are targeting.