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American Sniper - Bradley Cooper - Clint Eastwood Dir
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It's interesting watching commentary and reaction from America itself. A lot of even Hollywood names throwing some varying opinions and the likes.
Still can't help but feel too many people are letting their actual feelings about that theatre of war come into the mix. If this was set in WW2, I doubt there would be such conflicting opinions. I suppose it's worth remembering that the content of this film is very recent, it's not decades ago, this is all relatively modern. So there is still polarising opinions, even in a theatre.
I'm not surprised to hear American audiences applauding. They celebrate and remember their war veterans and heroes, we tend to be totally abstract to that. We as a nation tend to forget we have an armed force, and tend to forget we have a lot of heroes.
A lot of people seem to equate a film about american army or american soldier as propaganda flag waving. Which isn't the case. I've noticed a poster in this thread reference twice that he has or currently is serving with our armed forces, and he has a number of tours under his belt. The average Irish person doesn't even know what our armed forces go abroad, where and why. So I'm not suprised sometimes when patriotism and pride get confused with flag waiving and propaganda.
I watched this again over the weekend. I'm growing more of the opinion that a large portion of the negative comments on the film are from people who have prejudice against that theatre of war, or are purposefully trying to be different to the trend/hype. While the film has PLENTY of issues, mainly story wise, and has a fair bit of fiction claiming to be fact, it's in no way shape or form a bad film.0 -
To be honest I'm not even that bothered by the politics of the whole thing and whether Kyle was a "good guy" or not. It's not a documentary, it's a movie...and my opinion on that fact is that it's just not a good movie. It's dishointed, the action was boring, they could have gone somewhere with the other sniper, they didn't. Even the set up for Kyle taking that crazy long shot at him was set up so badly. The action sucked, the story sucked. It's not a good movie.0
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I read the book a long, long time ago so was quite looking forward to it. But to be honest, I felt left down after it.
I think they made the mistake of trying to compress his entire life into two and a half hours. Instead, they could have put more emphasis on his own mentality and how he was so at ease killing people and leaving his family behind. In the book, he repeatedly wrote about 'God, country, family. And in that order.' Which was only referenced once in the film. He often spoke about the insurgents as the 'bad guys' and he comes across as someone who really saw things in black and white, with no in between. I think he quite enjoyed his notoriety too.
I just feel like a mini-series alá Band of Brothers would have done far more justice to the details of his life and prevented it coming off as the pro-war propaganda that a lot of people are accusing it of. There's so much more to this story that the film leaves out, in place of a made-up hunt (for Mustafa) that never actually happened. A shame.0 -
Paddy@CIRL wrote: »I think they made the mistake of trying to compress his entire life into two and a half hours.
They should have spread it over two films? ... or go for a trilogy altogether...P.Jackson style, Bigger Better battles with bad ass explosions! ..throw in some modern day mech maybe?0 -
happysunnydays wrote: »They should have spread it over two films? ... or go for a trilogy altogether...P.Jackson style, Bigger Better battles with bad ass explosions! ..throw in some modern day mech maybe?
How about reading the rest of the post?0 -
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Picked up the book for €10 today, the film has intrugued me into learning more about Chris Kyle. Yet to start it, but I'm sure at almost 400 pages there's plenty the film has left out.0
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Leighton Damaged Scoutmaster wrote: »That's interesting.
The only time I seen an audience applaud in Ireland was at the end of Richard Attenborough's Cry Freedom.
Maybe they were just happy it was over!0 -
I'll stay away from the politics of the movie as I don't think I'm as educated on the whole matter as some are here and would not offer a decent opinion or invite discussion on it.
As a movie, yes it was ok. The action could have been better I thought and there was only one scene where I really felt there was real tension was the second child scene with the RPG (the tension was removed from the first child scene by the trailer I thought) and the rooftop scene(I thought how they ended up in that predicament was utterly unrealistic however - I can't imagine a US Navy Seal putting the majority of his compatriots in severe danger because of one sniper)
I too found the psychologist scene a bit unrealistic, I wish they had expanded on that and the scene with the dog - well I would have liked the movie to show more of that mental breakdown.
It's a 6/10 for me - and as a side note - very surprised how much war was actually in it - thought there would be much more of his home-life - despite four tours. Really interesting that the Punisher and it's logo are present - anyone who has read "Born" will know what I mean.0 -
I thought this was a masterpiece. Bradley Cooper is in my opinion the best actor working today. He really has everything. Handsome but not too handsome, modest and can be really vulnerable at times. It's mad to think that The Hangover launched his career.0
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I thought this was a masterpiece. Bradley Cooper is in my opinion the best actor working today. He really has everything. Handsome but not too handsome, modest and can be really vulnerable at times. It's mad to think that The Hangover launched his career.
Yep he is a great actor.
It was a brutally honest movie even if it was more of an ad campaign for the US forces, but I enjoyed it0 -
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It was a brutally dishonest movie. Seth Rogen was spot on in calling it similar to the propaganda film from Inglorious, it really is that extreme.
It's a great action film, but it doesn't hold up to deeper analysis.
One thing that kept running through my mind was that if you compare this to Enemy at the Gates then Bradley Cooper is identical to Ed Harris' character, while the Iraqi sniper is Jude Law.
Also did anyone notice that ever Iraqi Cooper kills is an immediate threat to US soldiers while every kill the Iraqi sniper makes is a US soldier just wandering around or building a wall.0 -
This is an absolute God awful film. Bradley Cooper is just.... Crap! I have nothing against these type of films and think the Hurt Locker is a great film. But The sniper is just one long propagandist bore fest. I'm surprised that this is a Clint Movie. A directors cut may improve, maybe??0
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[QUOTE
One thing that kept running through my mind was that if you compare this to Enemy at the Gates then Bradley Cooper is identical to Ed Harris' character, while the Iraqi sniper is Jude Law. [/QUOTE]
Except Enemy At The Gates is a great movie with good acting.0 -
This is an absolute God awful film. Bradley Cooper is just.... Crap! I have nothing against these type of films and think the Hurt Locker is a great film. But The sniper is just one long propagandist bore fest. I'm surprised that this is a Clint Movie. A directors cut may improve, maybe??
Where is the propaganda?
Kyle was a SEAL sniper in Fallujah when the Marines were sent into crush Al-Qaeda In Iraq or AIQ led by Zaraqawi. AIQ was the embryo of ISIS today. Zarqawi operated a torture centre in Fallujah where victims like Ken Bigley and Margaret Hassan and other hostages were tortured and killed. Kyle's job was to provide overwatch as the ground troops did their job clearing out block after block and house after house in the city.
The film accurately shows how US and Coalition forces fought both Sunnis and Shia insurgencies which were trying to turn Iraq into a brutal Islamic state after Saddam Hussein was overthrown.
It shows how as the war went on the American public - represented in microcosm by Kyle's wife just want the troops to come home - and how soldiers on the battlefield were disillusioned with the mission - many of Kyle's buddies are sick and tired of arduous fighting - while Kyle still believe in the mission because he believed Islamic extremists had to be defeated in Iraq or in the future Americans would be fighting extremists on their own streets.
For dramatic licence Eastwood has Kyle involved in a duel with an Iraqi sniper. There really were Iraqi snipers who filmed themselves shooting US troops and posted the videos on youtube. In reality Kyle and his team were sent repeatedly into insurgent infested areas of Iraqi cities set themselves up in an abandoned building and for days would shoot armed insurgents and also call in airstrikes on their positions or capture insurgent leaders from their safehouses. Kyle really did kill an insurgent - not a sniper but a man armed with a rocket propelled grenade launcher - at an extreme distance. The film does not have time or space to go into the detail in the book - the book becomes repetitive because Kyle describes mission after mission after mission - so Eastwood created a more representative version of what Kyle and the SEALs would get up to.
Kyle really did suffer from high blood pressure, he and his wife really did almost split, he really did start becoming detached and distant from his family, he really did become a burn out and he really did suffer a mental break and get out of the SEALs and then became involved in helping veterans like himself with PTSD. Cooper protrays this process wonderfully. He goes from a care free rather naive young man to a scarred and battered veteran.
The film doesn't dress up war as glorious whatsoever. It is brutal savage and psychologically damaging to those who fight and civilians caught up in a war zone pay a terrible price.
This movie is by no means a hoo-rah American war movie.0 -
DavidRamsay99 wrote: »Where is the propaganda?
Kyle was a SEAL sniper in Fallujah when the Marines were sent into crush Al-Qaeda In Iraq or AIQ led by Zaraqawi. AIQ was the embryo of ISIS today. Zarqawi operated a torture centre in Fallujah where victims like Ken Bigley and Margaret Hassan and other hostages were tortured and killed. Kyle's job was to provide overwatch as the ground troops did their job clearing out block after block and house after house in the city.
The film accurately shows how US and Coalition forces fought both Sunnis and Shia insurgencies which were trying to turn Iraq into a brutal Islamic state after Saddam Hussein was overthrown.
It shows how as the war went on the American public - represented in microcosm by Kyle's wife just want the troops to come home - and how soldiers on the battlefield were disillusioned with the mission - many of Kyle's buddies are sick and tired of arduous fighting - while Kyle still believe in the mission because he believed Islamic extremists had to be defeated in Iraq or in the future Americans would be fighting extremists on their own streets.
For dramatic licence Eastwood has Kyle involved in a duel with an Iraqi sniper. There really were Iraqi snipers who filmed themselves shooting US troops and posted the videos on youtube. In reality Kyle and his team were sent repeatedly into insurgent infested areas of Iraqi cities set themselves up in an abandoned building and for days would shoot armed insurgents and also call in airstrikes on their positions or capture insurgent leaders from their safehouses. Kyle really did kill an insurgent - not a sniper but a man armed with a rocket propelled grenade launcher - at an extreme distance. The film does not have time or space to go into the detail in the book - the book becomes repetitive because Kyle describes mission after mission after mission - so Eastwood created a more representative version of what Kyle and the SEALs would get up to.
Kyle really did suffer from high blood pressure, he and his wife really did almost split, he really did start becoming detached and distant from his family, he really did become a burn out and he really did suffer a mental break and get out of the SEALs and then became involved in helping veterans like himself with PTSD. Cooper protrays this process wonderfully. He goes from a care free rather naive young man to a scarred and battered veteran.
The film doesn't dress up war as glorious whatsoever. It is brutal savage and psychologically damaging to those who fight and civilians caught up in a war zone pay a terrible price.
This movie is by no means a hoo-rah American war movie.
Outstanding post0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Outstanding post
Eastwood leaves out most of the comical carry on in the book. Kyle talks about the endless hazing that he received when he joined his platoon and the treatment he gave to other newbies and how he and the guys would get into barfights on leave Stateside.
In the book after Falluja was cleaned out, Kyle and his platoon were in position over looking the bridge where the American contractors had been burned alive in their vehicles by an Iraqi mob and the hung up like meat from the metal frame of the bridge. Across the river was a marsh and the insurgents used it as an infiltration point into the city and an area where they could fire from and then scoot to safety.
Anyways one night he saw a group of guys armed with weapons and dressed in body armor swimming across the river using bright colored beach balls as floats. Kyle shot the balls and the insurgents sank and drowned!
In another episode an insurgent was firing from the minaret of a mosque and the Marines were trying to take him but nothing worked until they called in an airstrike. The bomb went in through roof and passed right through and then landed in a street where another bunch of insurgents were gathered and blew them to pieces. When Kyle and his guys climbed right up to the top of the tower which resembled an airport control tower they found out why the insurgent had stopped firing. The bomb had passed through the tower and ripped his head off!
I think if Eastwood had more laughs it would jar with their serious tone and message of the film. That the hoorah of war hides the tragedy and horror.0 -
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The film engages in propaganda on many levels. From subtle bias in its portrayal of both sides of the conflict to outright lies where the actions of the US military are concerned. It is dangerous and dishonest because it serves as a whitewash of a pretty horrific war and glosses over the true horrors inflicted upon innocent people.
I'll start out by saying that I enjoyed the Hurt Locker and Zero Dark Thirty immensely, though the latter was again slightly one sided, but at least presented with a modicum of integrity. Lone Survivor is fantastic also, though let down by some elements of Mark Wahlberg's performance in the latter half. (All films in the same theater of war that I actually enjoyed)
The first and most obvious piece of propaganda is the lie about Fallujah. This was an entire CITY that was leveled to the ground by the US military and there have been numerous reports of widespread civilian casualties as well as indiscriminate and deliberate targeting of civilians. I remember at the time when this was happening how access to journalists was severely restricted (much more so than in the rest of the war) which has made holding the US to account incredibly difficult.
In the film the siege of Fallujah is dismissed with a single line spoken as they go in. 'All the civillians have been evacuated, and the only people that remain are hardline extremists.'
The implication and tone suggests that the US actively tried to evacuate civilians. In fact, according to the US army what they did was drop leaflets and make loudspeaker announcements (according to them for several days.) Even if this is true the fact remains that all MILITARY AGED MALES were stopped from leaving the city. That means any male over the age of 15. Estimates suggest that there were 30-50K civilians remaining in the city.
The US also made use of illegal chemical weapons. The evidence of this can be seen by googling the term 'Fallujah babies.'
The US have been very successful in covering up the atrocities they committed in Fallujah and this film only helps in that endeavour.
This US soldier's first hand account helps to shed the faintest of lights on what really went on there:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/10/iraq-fallujah-destruction-alqaida-maliki
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/jan/13/us-marines-video-urination-war-crimeThe stories about Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the alleged leader of al-Qaida in Iraq who was said to be recruiting an army in Falluja, were wildly exaggerated. There is no evidence that Zarqawi ever even set foot in Falluja.
But a much more powerful, effective and insidious use of propaganda in the film is the portrayal of Kyle's victims.
The opening kill, where he shoots a woman and a child, is not what Kyle himself said in his own book. There was in fact, no child. Eastwood masterfully inserts the child, carrying the bomb, given to him by a woman (who we would naturally presume might be his mother.) And when the child is shot, this woman is so extreme and fanatical that she isn't concerned about him at all, instead she runs to pick up the bomb to throw it at the Americans. In that opening scene, the film sets the stage for its portrayal of the victims of the American invasion, as Kyle so succinctly and repeatedly labels them: 'Savages.'
This also serves to underscore the other main lie and propaganda point of the story. Anyone killed by the Americans was a bad guy who deserved to die and who they HAD to kill in order to save themselves. Whether they were women or children.
This pattern continues throughout the film. The Americans are just trying to do their best to liberate the country in the face of SAVAGE brutality and extremism. They do not torture (which we know they did). It is interesting how not ONE of Kyle's kills shown in the film had any GREY area about it. Are we really to believe that out of the 160-220 people he shot dead there were no instances that in the pressure and battle of war were ambiguous in any way?
This is only mildly approached in a scene where Kyle is questioned about a kill and a woman claims he shot a man who was carrying a Koran. Yet the kill before that (if it refers to the same incident) makes a lie of this woman's complaint. The message is obvious. Any reports from the locals of US atrocities are probably lies.
Where are the good Muslims in the film? The man who shares his home and his meal? Turns out he's hiding a weapon cache in his house and he tries to pick up a gun to fight back the first chance he gets.
Even the informer isn't portrayed in the kindest light. Despite his daughter losing an arm to the butcher, he wants 100k to help them. Not safety or relocation which could be seen as reasonable, but 100k in cash.
And what about opposing view points? The one soldier who offers a liberal perspective and questions (laughingly mildly) the validity of the invasion is promptly killed off. And Kyle gets to tell us all that it was his weakness, because that is what questioning the necessity of America and its armed forces actions in the western world is: Softness, weakness. This is what happens to pinko, liberals.
The rampaging Muslim hordes would wipe us all out if it wasn't for the bravery of heroes like Kyle, standing on the wall with their gun, shooting children about to hurl bombs over our fences. How dare we be so unpatriotic as to question any of this.
One need only watch Eastwood's empty chair speech at the Republican Convention leading up to the last US general election to see where the man's political opinions lie and it is clear that those prejudices have seeped deeply into the narrative of this film.
The film does an excellent job of pandering to the xenophobia and islamophobia currently rampant in Western society and it plays brilliantly on the prejudice and ignorance of those who would be taken in by its facade. Hence its stratospheric commercial success.
It remains however a blatant, dishonest and disgusting piece of war propaganda.0 -
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Memnoch you are utterly wrong.
The estimated death toll in Fallujah was about 800 civilians while an estimated 1,500 insurgents were killed and another 1,500 were captured while the rest of the estimated 4,000 insurgents fled the city during or after the battle.
The Americans sent over 10,000 of their personnel into the city along with about 2,00 Iraqi security forces and 850 British soldiers.
95 Americans, 8 British and 4 Iraqi security forces were killed in the fighting.
The overwhelming majority of civilians were evacuated before the military assault on the city.
The civilians who were killed were most likely killed in the cross fire between both sides as they fought a full scale battle with automatic weapons, rockets, mortars, artillery and aerial bombs.
White phosphorous was used to create white smoking screens to cover advancing ground forces, to provide illumination during night fighting and later was used to flush fanatical die hard insurgents out of buildings, bunkers and tunnels and into the open where they could be taken out with high explosive mortars, artillery and aerial bombs.
During fighting in built up urban areas civilians are often in buildings where firing is coming from so when soldiers break in and storm the buildings room by room clearing them with grenades and small arms fire during close quarter battle, civilians can get killed.
In Iraq women and children were also used to attack troops and a female finger or a child's finger can denote a suicide vest or pull the trigger of a gun.
That's just reality.
The fighting in Iraq was savage. The Al-Qaeda and Sunni insurgents planted bombs in market places and streets killing hundreds of civilians every single day while Shia death squads beheaded and shot Sunni residents by the hundred. Beheaded bodies and people tortured with drills were being found dumped in alleys and streets, in rivers and in the countryside as Sunni and Shia insurgents cleansed their neighborhoods. The violence was primarily sectarian and Sunni insurgents were the genesis of the ISIS today. The Shia and Sunnis were both happy to see the back of Saddam but they considered the predominantly Christian Americans and coalition forces as infidels and attacked them for this reason and because they stood in the path of the creation of an Islamic State. Crowds of unemployed Iraqi men joined the Iraqi Army and police to feed their families and got themselves blown up by the thousands. In Baghdad in 2005 about 1 million pilgrims had gathered in Baghdad for a religious festival when false reports of a suicide bombing cause a stamped that led to almost 1,000 deaths.
If ever there was a just war it was overthrowing Saddam's heinous regime and giving millions of Iraqis democracy and trying to establish a stable state in Iraq and defeating Islamic extremist savages who were beheading bombing and shooting in their quest to seize power.
Obama withdrew the troops after being warned he would embolden the terrorists. The result was the disastrous rise of ISIS and now insurgency is spreading to Muslim communities in Europe as thousands of insurgents are returning after committing atrocities there.
Unless military is used to crush ISIS for once and for all the future is bleak.0 -
Memnoch you are utterly wrong.
The estimated death toll in Fallujah was about 800 civilians while an estimated 1,500 insurgents were killed and another 1,500 were captured while the rest of the estimated 4,000 insurgents fled the city during or after the battle.
The Americans sent over 10,000 of their personnel into the city along with about 2,00 Iraqi security forces and 850 British soldiers.
95 Americans, 8 British and 4 Iraqi security forces were killed in the fighting.
The overwhelming majority of civilians were evacuated before the military assault on the city.
The civilians who were killed were most likely killed in the cross fire between both sides as they fought a full scale battle with automatic weapons, rockets, mortars, artillery and aerial bombs.
White phosphorous was used to create white smoking screens to cover advancing ground forces, to provide illumination during night fighting and later was used to flush fanatical die hard insurgents out of buildings, bunkers and tunnels and into the open where they could be taken out with high explosive mortars, artillery and aerial bombs.
During fighting in built up urban areas civilians are often in buildings where firing is coming from so when soldiers break in and storm the buildings room by room clearing them with grenades and small arms fire during close quarter battle, civilians can get killed.
In Iraq women and children were also used to attack troops and a female finger or a child's finger can denote a suicide vest or pull the trigger of a gun.
That's just reality.
The fighting in Iraq was savage. The Al-Qaeda and Sunni insurgents planted bombs in market places and streets killing hundreds of civilians every single day while Shia death squads beheaded and shot Sunni residents by the hundred. Beheaded bodies and people tortured with drills were being found dumped in alleys and streets, in rivers and in the countryside as Sunni and Shia insurgents cleansed their neighborhoods. The violence was primarily sectarian and Sunni insurgents were the genesis of the ISIS today. The Shia and Sunnis were both happy to see the back of Saddam but they considered the predominantly Christian Americans and coalition forces as infidels and attacked them for this reason and because they stood in the path of the creation of an Islamic State. Crowds of unemployed Iraqi men joined the Iraqi Army and police to feed their families and got themselves blown up by the thousands. In Baghdad in 2005 about 1 million pilgrims had gathered in Baghdad for a religious festival when false reports of a suicide bombing cause a stamped that led to almost 1,000 deaths.
If ever there was a just war it was overthrowing Saddam's heinous regime and giving millions of Iraqis democracy and trying to establish a stable state in Iraq and defeating Islamic extremist savages who were beheading bombing and shooting in their quest to seize power.
Obama withdrew the troops after being warned he would embolden the terrorists. The result was the disastrous rise of ISIS and now insurgency is spreading to Muslim communities in Europe as thousands of insurgents are returning after committing atrocities there.
Unless military force is used to crush ISIS for once and for all the future is bleak.
The liberal left disgracefully opposed the overthrow of the fascist regime of Saddam and have also opposed every effort to fight and defeat Islamic extremism while screaming "Islamophobe." They are traitors and cowards.0 -
Memnoch you are utterly wrong.
The estimated death toll in Fallujah was about 800 civilians while an estimated 1,500 insurgents were killed and another 1,500 were captured while the rest of the estimated 4,000 insurgents fled the city during or after the battle.
The Americans sent over 10,000 of their personnel into the city along with about 2,00 Iraqi security forces and 850 British soldiers.
95 Americans, 8 British and 4 Iraqi security forces were killed in the fighting.
The overwhelming majority of civilians were evacuated before the military assault on the city.
The civilians who were killed were most likely killed in the cross fire between both sides as they fought a full scale battle with automatic weapons, rockets, mortars, artillery and aerial bombs.
White phosphorous was used to create white smoking screens to cover advancing ground forces, to provide illumination during night fighting and later was used to flush fanatical die hard insurgents out of buildings, bunkers and tunnels and into the open where they could be taken out with high explosive mortars, artillery and aerial bombs.
During fighting in built up urban areas civilians are often in buildings where firing is coming from so when soldiers break in and storm the buildings room by room clearing them with grenades and small arms fire during close quarter battle, civilians can get killed especially when insurgents use them as human shields.
In Iraq women and children were also used to attack troops and a female finger or a child's finger can detonate a suicide vest or pull the trigger of a gun.
That's just reality.
The fighting in Iraq was savage. The Al-Qaeda and Sunni insurgents planted bombs in market places and streets killing hundreds of civilians every single day while Shia death squads beheaded and shot Sunni residents by the hundred. Beheaded bodies and people tortured with drills were being found dumped in alleys and streets, in rivers and in the countryside as Sunni and Shia insurgents cleansed their neighborhoods. The violence was primarily sectarian and Sunni insurgents were the genesis of the ISIS today. The Shia and Sunnis were both happy to see the back of Saddam but they considered the predominantly Christian Americans and coalition forces as infidels and attacked them for this reason and because they stood in the path of the creation of an Islamic State. Crowds of unemployed Iraqi men joined the Iraqi Army and police to feed their families and got themselves blown up by the thousands. In Baghdad in 2005 about 1 million pilgrims had gathered in Baghdad for a religious festival when false reports of a suicide bombing caused a stampede that led to almost 1,000 deaths.
If ever there was a just war it was overthrowing Saddam's heinous regime and giving millions of Iraqis democracy and trying to establish a stable state in Iraq and defeating Islamic extremist savages who were beheading bombing and shooting in their quest to seize power.
Obama withdrew the troops after being warned he would embolden the terrorists. The result was the disastrous rise of ISIS and now insurgency is spreading to Muslim communities in Europe as thousands of insurgents are returning after committing atrocities there.
Unless military force is used to crush ISIS for once and for all the future is bleak.
The liberal left disgracefully opposed the overthrow of the fascist regime of Saddam and have also opposed every effort to fight and defeat Islamic extremism while screaming "Islamophobe." They are traitors and cowards.0 -
Memnoch you are utterly wrong.
The estimated death toll in Fallujah was about 800 civilians while an estimated 1,500 insurgents were killed and another 1,500 were captured while the rest of the estimated 4,000 insurgents fled the city during or after the battle.
The Americans sent over 10,000 of their personnel into the city along with about 2,00 Iraqi security forces and 850 British soldiers.
95 Americans, 8 British and 4 Iraqi security forces were killed in the fighting.
The overwhelming majority of civilians were evacuated before the military assault on the city.
The civilians who were killed were most likely killed in the cross fire between both sides as they fought a full scale battle with automatic weapons, rockets, mortars, artillery and aerial bombs.
White phosphorous was used to create white smoking screens to cover advancing ground forces, to provide illumination during night fighting and later was used to flush fanatical die hard insurgents out of buildings, bunkers and tunnels and into the open where they could be taken out with high explosive mortars, artillery and aerial bombs.
During fighting in built up urban areas civilians are often in buildings where firing is coming from so when soldiers break in and storm the buildings room by room clearing them with grenades and small arms fire during close quarter battle, civilians can get killed especially when insurgents use them as human shields.
In Iraq women and children were also used to attack troops and a female finger or a child's finger can detonate a suicide vest or pull the trigger of a gun.
That's just reality.
The fighting in Iraq was savage. The Al-Qaeda and Sunni insurgents planted bombs in market places and streets killing hundreds of civilians every single day while Shia death squads beheaded and shot Sunni residents by the hundred. Beheaded bodies and people tortured with drills were being found dumped in alleys and streets, in rivers and in the countryside as Sunni and Shia insurgents cleansed their neighborhoods. The violence was primarily sectarian and Sunni insurgents were the genesis of the ISIS today. The Shia and Sunnis were both happy to see the back of Saddam but they considered the predominantly Christian Americans and coalition forces as infidels and attacked them for this reason and because they stood in the path of the creation of an Islamic State. Crowds of unemployed Iraqi men joined the Iraqi Army and police to feed their families and got themselves blown up by the thousands. In Baghdad in 2005 about 1 million pilgrims had gathered in Baghdad for a religious festival when false reports of a suicide bombing caused a stampede that led to almost 1,000 deaths.
If ever there was a just war it was overthrowing Saddam's heinous regime and giving millions of Iraqis democracy and trying to establish a stable state in Iraq and defeating Islamic extremist savages who were beheading bombing and shooting in their quest to seize power.
Obama withdrew the troops after being warned he would embolden the terrorists. The result was the disastrous rise of ISIS and now insurgency is spreading to Muslim communities in Europe as thousands of insurgents are returning after committing atrocities there.
Unless military force is used to crush ISIS for once and for all the future is bleak with the massacre at Charlie Hebdo was sign of what is to come if we do not stand up and fight back.
The liberal left disgracefully opposed the overthrow of the fascist regime of Saddam and have also opposed every effort to fight and defeat Islamic extremism while screaming "Islamophobe." They are traitors and cowards.0 -
ipad?0
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DavidRamsay99 wrote: »Memnoch you are utterly wrong.
The estimated death toll in Fallujah was about 800 civilians while an estimated 1,500 insurgents were killed and another 1,500 were captured while the rest of the estimated 4,000 insurgents fled the city during or after the battle.
The Americans sent over 10,000 of their personnel into the city along with about 2,00 Iraqi security forces and 850 British soldiers.
95 Americans, 8 British and 4 Iraqi security forces were killed in the fighting.
The overwhelming majority of civilians were evacuated before the military assault on the city.
The civilians who were killed were most likely killed in the cross fire between both sides as they fought a full scale battle with automatic weapons, rockets, mortars, artillery and aerial bombs.
White phosphorous was used to create white smoking screens to cover advancing ground forces, to provide illumination during night fighting and later was used to flush fanatical die hard insurgents out of buildings, bunkers and tunnels and into the open where they could be taken out with high explosive mortars, artillery and aerial bombs.
During fighting in built up urban areas civilians are often in buildings where firing is coming from so when soldiers break in and storm the buildings room by room clearing them with grenades and small arms fire during close quarter battle, civilians can get killed especially when insurgents use them as human shields.
In Iraq women and children were also used to attack troops and a female finger or a child's finger can detonate a suicide vest or pull the trigger of a gun.
That's just reality.
The fighting in Iraq was savage. The Al-Qaeda and Sunni insurgents planted bombs in market places and streets killing hundreds of civilians every single day while Shia death squads beheaded and shot Sunni residents by the hundred. Beheaded bodies and people tortured with drills were being found dumped in alleys and streets, in rivers and in the countryside as Sunni and Shia insurgents cleansed their neighborhoods. The violence was primarily sectarian and Sunni insurgents were the genesis of the ISIS today. The Shia and Sunnis were both happy to see the back of Saddam but they considered the predominantly Christian Americans and coalition forces as infidels and attacked them for this reason and because they stood in the path of the creation of an Islamic State. Crowds of unemployed Iraqi men joined the Iraqi Army and police to feed their families and got themselves blown up by the thousands. In Baghdad in 2005 about 1 million pilgrims had gathered in Baghdad for a religious festival when false reports of a suicide bombing caused a stampede that led to almost 1,000 deaths.
If ever there was a just war it was overthrowing Saddam's heinous regime and giving millions of Iraqis democracy and trying to establish a stable state in Iraq and defeating Islamic extremist savages who were beheading bombing and shooting in their quest to seize power.
Obama withdrew the troops after being warned he would embolden the terrorists. The result was the disastrous rise of ISIS and now insurgency is spreading to Muslim communities in Europe as thousands of insurgents are returning after committing atrocities there.
Unless military force is used to crush ISIS for once and for all the future is bleak.
The liberal left disgracefully opposed the overthrow of the fascist regime of Saddam and have also opposed every effort to fight and defeat Islamic extremism while screaming "Islamophobe." They are traitors and cowards.
Would you be in favour of overthrowing the fascist regime in Saudi Arabia thereby curtailing their support of Islamic extremism0 -
R P McMurphy wrote: »Would you be in favour of overthrowing the fascist regime in Saudi Arabia thereby curtailing their support of Islamic extremism
In a heart beat. Obama went to the funeral of that turd Abdullah but did not send anybody to the Charlie Hebdo march in Paris nor did he attend the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. The Saudis behead more people than ISIS.0 -
DavidRamsay99 wrote: »Memnoch you are utterly wrong.
The estimated death toll in Fallujah was about 800 civilians while an estimated 1,500 insurgents were killed and another 1,500 were captured while the rest of the estimated 4,000 insurgents fled the city during or after the battle.
The Americans sent over 10,000 of their personnel into the city along with about 2,00 Iraqi security forces and 850 British soldiers.
95 Americans, 8 British and 4 Iraqi security forces were killed in the fighting.
The overwhelming majority of civilians were evacuated before the military assault on the city.
The civilians who were killed were most likely killed in the cross fire between both sides as they fought a full scale battle with automatic weapons, rockets, mortars, artillery and aerial bombs.
White phosphorous was used to create white smoking screens to cover advancing ground forces, to provide illumination during night fighting and later was used to flush fanatical die hard insurgents out of buildings, bunkers and tunnels and into the open where they could be taken out with high explosive mortars, artillery and aerial bombs.
During fighting in built up urban areas civilians are often in buildings where firing is coming from so when soldiers break in and storm the buildings room by room clearing them with grenades and small arms fire during close quarter battle, civilians can get killed especially when insurgents use them as human shields.
In Iraq women and children were also used to attack troops and a female finger or a child's finger can detonate a suicide vest or pull the trigger of a gun.
That's just reality.
The fighting in Iraq was savage. The Al-Qaeda and Sunni insurgents planted bombs in market places and streets killing hundreds of civilians every single day while Shia death squads beheaded and shot Sunni residents by the hundred. Beheaded bodies and people tortured with drills were being found dumped in alleys and streets, in rivers and in the countryside as Sunni and Shia insurgents cleansed their neighborhoods. The violence was primarily sectarian and Sunni insurgents were the genesis of the ISIS today. The Shia and Sunnis were both happy to see the back of Saddam but they considered the predominantly Christian Americans and coalition forces as infidels and attacked them for this reason and because they stood in the path of the creation of an Islamic State. Crowds of unemployed Iraqi men joined the Iraqi Army and police to feed their families and got themselves blown up by the thousands. In Baghdad in 2005 about 1 million pilgrims had gathered in Baghdad for a religious festival when false reports of a suicide bombing caused a stampede that led to almost 1,000 deaths.
If ever there was a just war it was overthrowing Saddam's heinous regime and giving millions of Iraqis democracy and trying to establish a stable state in Iraq and defeating Islamic extremist savages who were beheading bombing and shooting in their quest to seize power.
Obama withdrew the troops after being warned he would embolden the terrorists. The result was the disastrous rise of ISIS and now insurgency is spreading to Muslim communities in Europe as thousands of insurgents are returning after committing atrocities there.
Unless military force is used to crush ISIS for once and for all the future is bleak with the massacre at Charlie Hebdo was sign of what is to come if we do not stand up and fight back.
The liberal left disgracefully opposed the overthrow of the fascist regime of Saddam and have also opposed every effort to fight and defeat Islamic extremism while screaming "Islamophobe." They are traitors and cowards.
Lets not pretend though the US went in there for anything other then economic interests. Whether that be oil or be it just to give the great war machine something to do in order to keep their economy churning. And these imperialistic reasons are what spur on these crazies in the middle east and add to the fury. I can tell you if a power was coming into Ireland raping and pillaging I would be fighting back as well with everything I had, and I would also be painted as a crazy by the opposition media.
Sure these rabid crazies have to be shot down now like you say, but the Americans created this themselves and for the world by their huge greed and quest for power under the thin veil of 'democracy' which they dont even have in their own corrupt and rotten to the core political system of deceit, bribery and general nonsense.
It was not all that long ago they were funding Al Queida and Reagans foreign minister was on tape making news reports in Afghanistan talking about how he felt Al Queida were of a similar mindset to the US and how they needed to be trained and armed in order to keep out the Russian invaders. How anyone can stand up for the US behaviour and taking out of Saddamn I dont know, its a blinkered view through a paradigm of gung ho false nonsense. Get your own **** right before you start telling other countries how to do it.
I thought Clint presented the movie propaganda free, that was my viewing on it, simply because you could see the very 'basic' mentality of the US soldier and the naivety of going to war for the corporate machine which I felt he realised towards the end of the film. And all it does for that brave and loyal guy is end up destroying his life and his families life. The Amercians may clap in the cinema, but that is out of their own sheer stupidity and naivety. I honestly don't think Clint presented that movie as Kyle being a hero, I think it was just a simple narrative on his life, and allowed the viewer, the intelligent one any way to see futility of wasting ones life fighting in the army and the pain it brings to someone who does that and the people around them.
Maybe I interpreted it that way because of my own views I dont know, but there is no right in what the US has done in the middle east at all, trying to justify it is as naive as those poor soldiers who go to war over their ruining their lives with PTSD and affecting all of those around them and their families in the name of something that was created through a quest for money and power. Now they can justify having to go in there because its got to the point where the crazies are so rabid they are doing what they did in France , and that for many of the fat cats in the US is music to their ears.0 -
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Also did anyone notice that ever Iraqi Cooper kills is an immediate threat to US soldiers while every kill the Iraqi sniper makes is a US soldier just wandering around or building a wall.
Did you notice on the news the American citizens in civvies lobbing grenades at Iraqi's in Fallujah? Nope, me neither. There didn't tend to be many American insurgents fighting the Iraqi's in Iraq. Tends not to work that way when the war is in Iraq.
According to the book, written as his first hand account of the war, the army engineers building the wall were shot . so that's whats in the film.
His job is to provide overwatch to marines working on the ground. The very nature of that means the people hes shooting are going to be attacking the US soldiers. Or are you suggesting he sat on roof tops just randomly shooting anyone that dared venture on to the streets? You could rack up 160 kills in a day doing that.
For a film that so many go on about being propaganda and an ad for the army, highlighting PTSD, guys dying painfully riddled with bullets or being left maimed is harldy the way to showcase how great the life of a military man is.0
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