Near riot over a Midget horse in Finglas

Ave Sodalis · 04-10-2014 5:34pm

conorh91 wrote: »

I am talking about the really professional yards.

As am I.

conorh91 wrote: »

This is normal practice. I have experience of one of the best-known racing yards

Only one?

Edit: if you have experience of a yard that treats horses worse than travellers do, that the horses would prefer to belong to travellers, I would strongly recommend you report them.

conorh91 · 07-10-2014 12:30am

sup_dude wrote: »

As am I.

Really. Most people here won't know anything about trainers' practices and will prefer to side with your statement, because, somewhat understandably, they prefer it to be true.

It isn't. No person who has genuine experience of very professional yards will back up the claim that "the majority of" professional yards turn out daily or weekly "on top of their longer breaks in the field". That, frankly, is pure bollocks.

You can't even raise your voice or drop a wheelbarrow in some of these yards, lest you upset the horses. The idea that anyone would let these animals loose in the countryside, on a daily or weekly basis, is fantasy.

gormdubhgorm · 07-10-2014 1:08am

The film "Into The West" is all I can think of!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie_4LoVV_YM

Bepolite · 07-10-2014 1:26am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The film "Into The West" is all I can think of!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie_4LoVV_YM

Zut Alors!

Ave Sodalis · 07-10-2014 8:39am

conorh91 wrote: »

Really. Most people here won't know anything about trainers' practices and will prefer to side with your statement, because, somewhat understandably, they prefer it to be true.

It isn't. No person who has genuine experience of very professional yards will back up the claim that "the majority of" professional yards turn out daily or weekly "on top of their longer breaks in the field". That, frankly, is pure bollocks.

You can't even raise your voice or drop a wheelbarrow in some of these yards, lest you upset the horses. The idea that anyone would let these animals loose in the countryside, on a daily or weekly basis, is fantasy.

Yes really. Lemme guess, you never worked in many very professional yards and don't know a lot of people who do.

I actually don't know why you're so against the idea. Any yard I've been in had supervised turn out for horses. This holds true in some form with anyone I've worked with and people I know that worked in one, even if I wasn't there. That covers an awful lot of yards. Once a horse stops running around, the most of the danger of something happening to them is over. An international showjumping yard I was working in put a horse or two in the field every night. Broodmares, foals and yearlings spend most of their lives in a field. So yeah, I'm a person who has genuine experience with working in "very" professional yards who is not only making that claim, but is stating that fact.

Either way, you still made the claim that any horse in a professional yard would prefer to live with travelers. I'm still failing to see how this is true.

AudreyHepburn · 07-10-2014 9:17am

conorh91 wrote: »

Not for the horses, there isn't. Horses do not appreciate aesthetics. The big difference between keeping a horse locked in a back garden 23 hours per day, and keeping him locked up in a stable on a competition yard for 23 hours per day, is that the horse in the back garden will have more space and amusement.

Anyone who has ever worked around horses in a professional way will appreciate how horses' requirements differ substantially from the misconceptions that are out there. People with no familiarity tend to think professionals' horses spend their days rollicking in fields and occasional competitions. No. they are mostly locked up indoors in 12 x 14ft boxes. At the end of the season, when they eventually see grass, they go absolutely bonkers and risk injury, so even this exposure is limited.

If horses could choose, I reckon many of them would choose to live on estates than in professional yards. You have to stop applying human desires and sensibilities to horses.

By the way, I'm not criticizing professional yards. Far from it. Horses are so versatile that they can be very happy in the most challenging environments. That's why they have had such an enduring relationship with mankind.

If you think there is nothing wrong with keeping an animal the size of, and with the needs of, a horse in a backyard then you clearly have never owned or worked them.

It's nothing to do with worrying about aesthetics or applying my human sensibilities to horses, it's about having common sense.

TBH I see keep horses in housing estates as a form of abuse because there is no way you can adequately care for and keep them safe there.

DBEventers · 07-10-2014 9:41am

conorh91 wrote: »

Really. Most people here won't know anything about trainers' practices and will prefer to side with your statement, because, somewhat understandably, they prefer it to be true.

It isn't. No person who has genuine experience of very professional yards will back up the claim that "the majority of" professional yards turn out daily or weekly "on top of their longer breaks in the field". That, frankly, is pure bollocks.

You can't even raise your voice or drop a wheelbarrow in some of these yards, lest you upset the horses. The idea that anyone would let these animals loose in the countryside, on a daily or weekly basis, is fantasy.

I agree, a lot of very professional yards would even have so many horses that it would be impractical to turn them out this often. I have worked in loads of yards and keep and ride a lot of horses and during the season, it would be too risky to turn out a lot of the horses I have worked with due to either being so fit, hyper and highly strung, never mind the fact that a small injury could essentially screw up the season for them. By missing a couple of weeks could mean that they miss an important qualifier! Any time we did turn out a horse, they were booted and bandaged and only out for an hour or so, under watch. Although I've had a horse that was impossible to ride unless kept in field, but she's an exception!

conorh91 · 07-10-2014 5:51pm

sup_dude wrote: »

I actually don't know why you're so against the idea. Any yard I've been in had supervised turn out for horses.

I'm not. I, like other posters who seem to know what they're talking about, are telling you that this is not common practice.

You claim "the majority" of racing yards turn out daily or weekly, during the season. That is simply not true for the top yards. I've never even encountered a predominantly point to point yard who did so.

Dressage yards tend to be even more opposed to turnout.

I don't know much about showjumping yards, so am not competent to say what common practice is there.

You are wrong on this. If you qualified your statement by saying that some trainers turn out in season, I'd be in agreement. But to claim it's the majority, and that it can even be daily, is not a runner.

What does all this demonstrate?

That daily or regular access to rolling countryside, however ideal(istic) is not necessarily relevant to horse welfare.

Ave Sodalis · 07-10-2014 6:47pm

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm not. I, like other posters who seem to know what they're talking about, are telling you that this is not common practice.

You claim "the majority" of racing yards turn out daily or weekly, during the season. That is simply not true for the top yards. I've never even encountered a predominantly point to point yard who did so.

Dressage yards tend to be even more opposed to turnout.

I don't know much about showjumping yards, so am not competent to say what common practice is there.

You are wrong on this. If you qualified your statement by saying that some trainers turn out in season, I'd be in agreement. But to claim it's the majority, and that it can even be daily, is not a runner.

What does all this demonstrate?

That daily or regular access to rolling countryside, however ideal(istic) is not necessarily relevant to horse welfare.

Did you read the part that said I knew what I was talking about too? Or did you skip that part in order to make up that I was talking solely about racing yards and only talking about during the season? Because I never mentioned either of them. There are more professional yards than those just for point to pointers.

I didn't mention any season and it is a majority, and yes, some yards turn out daily, I've worked in a few that have. I'm not saying all do either. You can you stick your fingers in your ears and go "blah blah blah" all you want but that doesn't make what you're saying any more right.

Not relevant to welfare?
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301622604002350
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787811001821
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0737080605001206
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787813001226
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0737080613003316

Again, are you still suggesting that horses will be better of living with Travelers than in a professional yard?

Lalealynn · 07-10-2014 7:06pm

conorh91 wrote: »

You are wrong on this. If you qualified your statement by saying that some trainers turn out in season, I'd be in agreement. But to claim it's the majority, and that it can even be daily, is not a runner.

What does all this demonstrate?

That daily or regular access to rolling countryside, however ideal(istic) is not necessarily relevant to horse welfare.

Very true it depends on the schedule of physical exercise the horse is on. How much work they do.

crannglas · 07-10-2014 7:08pm

Didn't any of you lot watch into the west? God people watch your Irish movies!

kingchess · 07-10-2014 7:09pm

you guys seem to be talking about" top of the range" worth a lot of money pure bred horses,I do not believe the small horse in the op"s video would be allowed inside the same yard with the highly trained beasts you are talking about.also how would Donkeys and Ponies fit into your scheme of things???kept in all the time and left out for an hour or two into the field??

crannglas · 07-10-2014 7:11pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The film "Into The West" is all I can think of!
l]

Dammit you got there before me! Best movie ever.

Lalealynn · 07-10-2014 7:18pm

sup_dude wrote: »

Did you read the part that said I knew what I was talking about too? Or did you skip that part in order to make up that I was talking solely about racing yards and only talking about during the season? Because I never mentioned either of them. There are more professional yards than those just for point to pointers.

I didn't mention any season and it is a majority, and yes, some yards turn out daily, I've worked in a few that have. I'm not saying all do either. You can you stick your fingers in your ears and go "blah blah blah" all you want but that doesn't make what you're saying any more right.

Not relevant to welfare?

Again, are you still suggesting that horses will be better of living with Travelers than in a professional yard?

I am the most liberal bleeding heart you can meet. I acknowledge the vast majority of horses who come to the animal welfare come from traveler communities. It's not a lifestyle compatible with caring for a horse. Very few horses come to the DSPCA from professional yard because their reputation would be ruined and their business would be ruined. A livery yard would never get any business if they did not maintain high standards. Riding schools would not get business if they didn't do the same.

Some Private owners who should not own horses or take on too many and traveling communities are usually the ones that lead to abusive standards of care.

You can't make a living out of horses if you don't realize their value. And part of their value is the work you do with them and put into their health and psychological welfare.

Most of the value in the horse is actually the training and schooling it receives, it can more than TRIPLE the value of a horse on the market. The value represents the horses character too it's temperament. Horses who have no value are the ones who you see in the papers being set on fire. Being a living being is not enough to prevent abuse sadly.

Yes some yards have poor practices. I have ridden horses and been around yards but admittedly never worked in one. But the level of expertise in professional yards cannot be compared to the vast majority of care by travelers. That is not to say they could not do it. It is just observable fact that they don't seem to.

Reckless breeding during the Celtic Tiger years has caused Ireland to be inundated with unwanted equine. Added to this is the increasing cost of fodder and the diminishing value of equine. Markets like the one in Smithfield means anyone can easily buy equine for as cheap at €8, irrespective of a person's lack of resources and knowledge of equine care. Smithfield Market is unlicensed, unregulated, and completely unsuitable for horses and the DSPCA has worked to shut down these types of markets for years.

It's those stupid markets!

Anyone who wants to buy a horse for tiny amounts of money should not own one!

Horses are being tied up using ropes, chains or ill-fitting harnesses and bridles. In a lot of cases these owners are horse lovers and they don't mean to harm the animals but they don't have the knowledge and resources to look after them and in turn the animals suffer.

The owners of these equine are not providing shelter for these animals as they don't own the land and are not permitted to erect stables or shelters. The owners don't know enough about medical treatment of these animals like vaccinations, hoof care, worming treatments, diseases, etc or can't afford them. Horses are not being fed correctly and do not have access to fresh water. Owners don't know about horses needing extra feed, water or shelter in winter.

I know how to ride a bit and little about horses I could volunteer in a yard and not make nuisance of myself. But I know enough to know how little I know about horses!

The DSPCA will try to deal with all cases but there are serious financial repercussions to the rescue and care of these horses. Every horse that we take in costs an average of €3,000 to treat.

And they are a public danger too! It is only a matter of time before members of the public are hurt by animals wandering in front of cars or other types of accidents. And with foot and mouth etc it's a health danger to other animals.

Lalealynn · 07-10-2014 7:24pm

crannglas wrote: »

Didn't any of you lot watch into the west? God people watch your Irish movies!

LOVED THAT FILM!!!

conorh91 · 07-10-2014 7:37pm

sup_dude wrote: »

Again, are you still suggesting that horses will be better of living with Travelers than in a professional yard?

No, I did not mention travellers.

I just don't give a crap about the background and area a horse owner comes from. I wouldn't say a horse should never be kept in a housing estate or urban environment, because it's theoretically possible that a horse could be very well looked after and content living in someone's back garden, or in the stables behind Thomas Street, where many healthy-looking horses do live.

I don't claim to know anything about urban horse owners, or to be friends of any.

I'm simply rebutting the idea that the majority of professionals (real professionals) regularly turn out their animals, in the way you describe.

Ave Sodalis · 08-10-2014 9:44am

conorh91 wrote: »

No, I did not mention travellers.

I just don't give a crap about the background and area a horse owner comes from. I wouldn't say a horse should never be kept in a housing estate or urban environment, because it's theoretically possible that a horse could be very well looked after and content living in someone's back garden, or in the stables behind Thomas Street, where many healthy-looking horses do live.

I don't claim to know anything about urban horse owners, or to be friends of any.

I'm simply rebutting the idea that the majority of professionals (real professionals) regularly turn out their animals, in the way you describe.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7071/7045873525_b2c9787fa1.jpg
As opposed to what, fake professionals? :rolleyes: I don't even think you know the way I described turn out, given your post before this.

Theoretically, it is possible. Realistically, it doesn't happen all that often. I've seen very very few healthy horses who belong to Travelers.

FullblownRose · 08-10-2014 12:40pm

crannglas wrote: »

Did you miss the part when she said they have stables around the corner? Don't need to be loaded and own acres of land to love a horse and to be able to take care of it.

Did they say why they took the horse, at all?

Sounds like they had adequate facilities for it already. It's hardly bigger than a labrador!

daRobot · 08-10-2014 12:53pm

Leave the horse be ffs. The people there obviously love him and care for him considering how heated things got.

The people in this area don't have much, why take away something that brings them joy.

The Gardai should be using their resources for better causes than this.

fedor.2. · 08-10-2014 1:03pm

daRobot wrote: »

Leave the horse be ffs. The people there obviously love him and care for him considering how heated things got.

The people in this area don't have much, why take away something that brings them joy.

The Gardai should be using their resources for better causes than this.

How patronising. How do you know what these people have or don't have.

So, if someone doesn't "have much" they should be entitled to do whatever they want, is it?

FullblownRose · 08-10-2014 1:08pm

Why the comments about the one woman in pyjamas? I don't know whether it's morning time or not, but even so, she could have the 'flu, or be ill or in pain, or be depressed or something.

Putinovsky · 08-10-2014 1:11pm

FullblownRose wrote: »

Why the comments about the one woman in pyjamas? I don't know whether it's morning time or not, but even so, she could have the 'flu, or be ill or in pain, or be depressed or something.

Sorry but you see people walking around in their PJs all the time now in these areas. Nothing to do with having the flu or being depressed.

FullblownRose · 08-10-2014 1:17pm

Putinovsky wrote: »

Sorry but you see people walking around in their PJs all the time now in these areas. Nothing to do with having the flu or being depressed.

Even so, she was in pyjamas in her house and not expecting them to come and take her horse! It's not the same.

I don't think much of the man farting around looking like he hadn't a clue what he was doing, pulling the horse by the rope and then trying to drag it by the head and tail when it resisted. If it was my horse I wouldn't be filled wth confidence about its future if that's the kind of person they bring out to handle it.

It just doesn't look like it was handled very professionally.

foggy_lad · 08-10-2014 1:19pm

FullblownRose wrote: »

Did they say why they took the horse, at all?

Sounds like they had adequate facilities for it already. It's hardly bigger than a labrador!

daRobot wrote: »

Leave the horse be ffs. The people there obviously love him and care for him considering how heated things got.

The people in this area don't have much, why take away something that brings them joy.

The Gardai should be using their resources for better causes than this.

The horses were taken because the owners were not licensed and the horses were not micro chipped and also wee roaming around freely on land not belonging to the owners of the horses.

Basically the horses were a danger to residents in the area and to traffic as well as a menace and nuisance in the estate.

If people want to own horses they must abide by and comply with the regulations and laws in place.

FullblownRose · 08-10-2014 1:22pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

The horses were taken because the owners were not licensed and the horses were not micro chipped and also wee roaming around freely on land not belonging to the owners of the horses.

If people want to own horses they must abide by and comply with the regulations and laws in place.

Really? It wasn't clear from the video, thans for clearing that up.
Had they had a warning and been given time to get a license and microchipping done?
I'm a bit surprised at that, I'd never heard of microchipping small, basically pet animals.

Duck Soup · 08-10-2014 1:31pm

I've family in Finglas. They get up in the morning, get dressed, go off to work and are ordinary productive members of society.

Attempt to lump them in with the feckless pyjama partiers seen in this video and they would take very great exception to it.

There seems to be a thread of thought that says "Poor mumbling cretins, why deny them their small pleasures?"

Well, for a start, the animals are not kept either in conditions conducive to good health or adhering to regular check-ups to maintain good health. The one thing I didn't see from the rent-a-gobs in the YouTube video was anyone waving vets' bills at the gardai.

Is anyone stupid enough to think that the gardai and ISCPA are taking the horses just on a whim, with no laws having been broken? Why do some people think that they don't have to conform to laws of the land?

Fair play for some of the people for leaving their house for once, but it's only in the service of berating guards doing their job. And it's not as though Finglas is exactly crime-free. The time and energy - compounded ten-fold by the crowd and attendant heckling - expended on this operation is time that could have been spent elsewhere in the area, keeping people safe and following up complaints.

The vast majority of people in Finglas will look at the YT vid and their hearts will sink. Increasingly, people are moving out and away. Eventually, there will just be ponies in dressing gowns and furry slippers living there.

Little CuChulainn · 08-10-2014 1:34pm

FullblownRose wrote: »

Really? It wasn't clear from the video, thans for clearing that up.
Had they had a warning and been given time to get a license and microchipping done?
I'm a bit surprised at that, I'd never heard of microchipping small, basically pet animals.

Really? It's very common and soon to be mandatory. The problem with horses being kept on council land is widespread. The worst offenders leave them on football fields and play areas. The place ends up torn to pieces and full of horse ****. Green areas in housing estates are just no place for horses to be kept.

Duck Soup · 08-10-2014 1:44pm

Q: What does the law require as regards identification of equines (horses, ponies, donkeys etc.) prior to July 1st 2009?

A: Since 2004 all equines must have a passport. Some of the approved equine passport issuing bodies already stipulate that horses be micro-chipped as part of the passport issuing process.

Q: What does the law require after July 1st 2009?

A: All horses identified after July 1st 2009 must be micro-chipped.

Q. I am the keeper, not the owner of a horse – am I responsible for obtaining the passport?

A. Yes, where the keeper has no ownership of the horse, he/she must act on behalf of and in agreement with the owner of the horse, to ensure the horse is identified in accordance with the Regulation.

Q. Who is permitted to insert a microchip in a horse?

A. Micro-chips can only be implanted in horses by veterinary practitioners. Veterinary practitioners are required to take all appropriate measures to ensure a horse has not been micro-chipped previously.

http://www.dspca.ie/equineidentification

FullblownRose · 08-10-2014 1:45pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Really? It's very common and soon to be mandatory. The problem with horses being kept on council land is widespread. The worst offenders leave them on football fields and play areas. The place ends up torn to pieces and full of horse ****. Green areas in housing estates are just no place for horses to be kept.

I don't have any horses, I wasn't aware of microchipping until now.

That is a pity, but this only seems to be one miniature horse they seemed to be very fond of, and it's sad to see an oaf dragging it around by the tail on behalf of the gards.

It didn't say anywhere that that horse was causing a nuisance by roaming, and I don't like to assume it must be because the owners look or sound like other people who let their horses loose etc.

I'd like to think they'll get a chance to straighten it out, meet their requirements as owners and get the horse back. i do know falabella ponies are very affectionate and need a lot of attention and i'd say those owners are very fond of it. I agree a housing estate mightnt be a place for larger horses or a number of them.

foggy_lad · 08-10-2014 2:17pm

FullblownRose wrote: »

Really? It wasn't clear from the video, thans for clearing that up.
Had they had a warning and been given time to get a license and microchipping done?
I'm a bit surprised at that, I'd never heard of microchipping small, basically pet animals.

All horses/ponies etc must have an equine passport which requires them to be microchipped by a veterinary practioner

FullblownRose wrote: »

I don't have any horses, I wasn't aware of microchipping until now.

That is a pity, but this only seems to be one miniature horse they seemed to be very fond of, and it's sad to see an oaf dragging it around by the tail on behalf of the gards.

It didn't say anywhere that that horse was causing a nuisance by roaming, and I don't like to assume it must be because the owners look or sound like other people who let their horses loose etc.

I'd like to think they'll get a chance to straighten it out, meet their requirements as owners and get the horse back. i do know falabella ponies are very affectionate and need a lot of attention and i'd say those owners are very fond of it. I agree a housing estate mightnt be a place for larger horses or a number of them.

The horses were taken because they were roaming on land owned by the council, such horses and small ponies are a nuisance and a very real danger to children in housing estates and also to traffic in and around these housing estates.

you didn't like how the tail was pulled as a means of controlling the pony but would it have upset you more to see a child lying on the ground with a smashed in face or serious head injuries fighting for their life having been kicked, trampled or crushed by one of these cute cuddly ponies?

AFAIK they did get a chance to sort it out by paing fines and also by paying to have the horses micro-chipped as well as paying for the cost of picking up and transporting the animals and housing them until all costs are paid.

Near riot over a Midget horse in Finglas

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