Nissan Go for Leaf

Villain

I have a test drive and a meeting with a sales person at the weekend with a view to looking at a Leaf SV on the Nissan Go scheme, just wondering if anyone has purchased a Leaf on the Nissan Go scheme and if so what kind of deal they got?

Villain

Villain wrote: »

I have a test drive and a meeting with a sales person at the weekend with a view to looking at a Leaf SV on the Nissan Go scheme, just wondering if anyone has purchased a Leaf on the Nissan Go scheme and if so what kind of deal they got?

That's PCP isn't it that they call "go" ?

Did they explain it in detail because it can take a bit to get your head around it. Good way to buy a car though if you want to change again in 3 years.

You're really going to love it !

I got a quote on the SVE with 10 k miles a year and 5 K deposit €430 PM.

GFV of 12,397 which is the optional Balloon, I could go over the mileage which would either be billable or taken out of the GFV, which would leave me with less going forward for a deposit or less of a balloon to pay off.

They wouldn't budge on the price in Kilkenny or Windsor Nissan Belgard, there is very little room for negotiation on the Leaf as each Leaf sold makes a loss.

I couldn't even get the "granny cable" thrown in.

ei9go

Deleted User wrote: »

That's PCP isn't it that they call "go" ?

They wouldn't budge on the price in Kilkenny or Windsor Nissan Belgard, there is very little room for negotiation on the Leaf as each Leaf sold makes a loss.

I couldn't even get the "granny cable" thrown in.

They told me that the granny cable was a 600 Euro option and that on other Nissans they had 1500 Euro dealer support to play with or as a cash discount but nothing on the Leaf.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

That's PCP isn't it that they call "go" ?

Did they explain it in detail because it can take a bit to get your head around it. Good way to buy a car though if you want to change again in 3 years.

You're really going to love it !

I got a quote on the SVE with 10 k miles a year and 5 K deposit €430 PM.

GFV of 12,397 which is the optional Balloon, I could go over the mileage which would either be billable or taken out of the GFV, which would leave me with less going forward for a deposit or less of a balloon to pay off.

They wouldn't budge on the price in Kilkenny or Windsor Nissan Belgard, there is very little room for negotiation on the Leaf as each Leaf sold makes a loss.

I couldn't even get the "granny cable" thrown in.

Cheers for quick response, he didn't get into it too much over the phone but I thought I had a basic understanding of how it works.

However your figures have confused me So the cost of an SVE is around 26k, if you pay €430 pm that is 15480 then after 3 years plus the 5k deposit means you will have put 20480 into the car at that point, so if the balloon is 12,397 and you were to pay that to own the 3 year old car the total cost is 32,877 or perhaps I have misread and don't understand it fully?

Villain

Villain wrote: »

Cheers for quick response, he didn't get into it too much over the phone but I thought I had a basic understanding of how it works.

However your figures have confused me So the cost of an SVE is around 26k, if you pay €430 pm that is 15480 then after 3 years plus the 5k deposit means you will have put 20480 into the car at that point, so if the balloon is 12,397 and you were to pay that to own the 3 year old car the total cost is 32,877 or perhaps I have misread and don't understand it fully?

Yes this is about correct only the SVE out the door is about 27,500.

Pcp doesn't make the car cheaper, only in situations where the interest is cheaper which is usually the case work pcp.

Pcp means instead of paying 750_700 euros you pay 400 odd because you pay only interest and depreciation. You don't pay based on the full amount of the car.

Pcp gives you 3 years to decide if you want a new car after the 3 years or instead of paying the balloon, or put that into a new car.

Villain

Ok thanks for that, I think based on the low milage it will do the value after 3 years will be better than the GFV, so if I'm correct that can be used towards the deposit for a new car in 3 years?

If you do less than the contract mileage then your gfv will be higher meaning it will be less attractive for you to buy at the end but it also means you'll pay more per month than you need to. It could also mean you have more deposit going forward but make absolutely sure your sales man explains this to you. I'm not an expert in pcp.

ei9go

Did some test calculations on loans using Mad Lads 5K deposit and 22k PCP for the SVE and it works out that the PCP payment per month is virtually exactly the same payment per month as buying the car over 5 years in the traditional personal loan model.

The difference being that you are not getting a demand for 12k after three years to keep the car but there appears to be no saving in the PCP model and a very big loss if you decide to just walk away after 3 years.

ei9go

ei9go wrote: »

Did some test calculations on loans using Mad Lads 5K deposit and 22k PCP for the SVE and it works out that the PCP payment per month is virtually exactly the same payment per month as buying the car over 5 years in the traditional personal loan model.

The difference being that you are not getting a demand for 12k after three years to keep the car but there appears to be no saving in the PCP model and a very big loss if you decide to just walk away after 3 years.

That can't be right, borrowing 22 k over 3 years works out as €726 pm from TSB car loan calculator v 430 on pcp with the same deposit.

If you intend to buy the car and pay the balloon then it will only work out cheaper on pcp if the interest is lower which in most cases it usually is so in most cases pcp will actually work out cheaper than a bank loan if you want to own the car at the end.

My guess is that 90% of people will rather sign up on a new pcp on a new car rather than dump 12 k or more on a 3 year old car.

Btw at the end of the contract you don't have to go back to the same garage, you can go anywhere you choose.

noelf

Btw at the end of the contract you don't have to go back to the same garage, you can go anywhere you choose.[/quote]

Can you go with a different car manufacturer or are you stuck with the same make ?

noelf

noelf wrote: »

Can you go with a different car manufacturer or are you stuck with the same make ?

At the end of your pcp contract you can go to any garage or manufacturer you want.

ei9go

Deleted User wrote: »

That can't be right, borrowing 22 k over 3 years works out as €726 pm from TSB car loan calculator v 430 on pcp with the same deposit.

If you read the post again, you will see that I said it was nearly the same as a personal loan over 5 years.

ei9go

ei9go wrote: »

If you read the post again, you will see that I said it was nearly the same as a personal loan over 5 years.

ei9go wrote: »

Did some test calculations on loans using Mad Lads 5K deposit and 22k PCP for the SVE and it works out that the PCP payment per month is virtually exactly the same payment per month as buying the car over 5 years in the traditional personal loan model.

The difference being that you are not getting a demand for 12k after three years to keep the car but there appears to be no saving in the PCP model and a very big loss if you decide to just walk away after 3 years.

Ah yeah fair enough, sorry !

The difference though is that after 5 years it's yours, but it would have cost more due to the extra interest. But will the battery be usable after 5 years ? depends on your mileage and how much you fast charge, where you can be pretty sure it will be usable for the 3 year pcp after which it's not your problem.

September1

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah yeah fair enough, sorry !

The difference though is that after 5 years it's yours, but it would have cost more due to the extra interest. But will the battery be usable after 5 years ? depends on your mileage and how much you fast charge, where you can be pretty sure it will be usable for the 3 year pcp after which it's not your problem.

Not sure if FC has any influence on batteries.

September1

September1 wrote: »

Not sure if FC has any influence on batteries.

Of course it does, especially if it gets hot and if people charge a hot battery beyond 80% is where the most degradation occurs.

If you can fast charge from say 20-60% and if that's enough to get you home, then this wouldn't be such an problem, provided it doesn't get too hot.

The Leaf battery isn't designed to take such a charge current, if it were, then it wouldn't get hot.

The battery won't die, it will loose capacity gradually and for some it will come much sooner than others. It's when it becomes unusable or inconvenient that you could consider this end of life, be that 70 % or 80%.

If you're to qc every day and beyond 80% you'll loose capacity faster than someone who does not fast charge, but instead can charge at 3-6.5 Kw on a normal charger. Even the person who slow charges to 100% will not loose capacity nearly as fast, though leaving it charged to 100% for hours daily is not a good idea, even though it's not truly 100% it's still a high state of charge.

If you intend to keep the car 5 years + then you need to be as kind to that battery as much as possible.

As batteries get larger it's not going to be nearly as noticeable because if you still get 180 miles range after 10 years, you're not going to be too bad off.

For smaller batteries there would still be a need to increase the life of the battery itself.

September1

I could see now Mad_Lad why they did not like you on EV Owners thing :-) You are making wilde guesses. First of all BMS is designed for FC, even Nissan confirmed that multiple FC is OK. Second when playing with LeafSpy I noticed that at least Irish LEAFs seem to hold capacity better if they FC more (for cars of similar age/mileage).

So do you have any experience of FC causing faster degradation? Or at least any links to people who observed that?

September1

September1 wrote: »

I could see now Mad_Lad why they did not like you on EV Owners thing :-) You are making wilde guesses. First of all BMS is designed for FC, even Nissan confirmed that multiple FC is OK. Second when playing with LeafSpy I noticed that at least Irish LEAFs seem to hold capacity better if they FC more (for cars of similar age/mileage).

So do you have any experience of FC causing faster degradation? Or at least any links to people who observed that?

Whether the battery BMS can take the fast charge current or not is completely irrelevant , it's whether the battery can take it or not, and it clearly is not designed to or it wouldn't get hot. If they cooled the battery then it would greatly lessen the effects as Tesla and BMW do.

Nikki Gordon Bloomfield lost 20% capacity, or the 2nd capacity bar. at 50K miles due to multiple daily fast charging, now that may be an extreme case but it's a good indication as to what "will" happen if fast charging is abused. And charging a hot battery. Nikki does a lot of long trips in the leaf. So for those who don't do so many miles degradation will be slower, based on not fast charging so much.

There could be more cases that we don't know about.

But nissan will tell you "sure, go ahead, fast charge away, we don't warrant it anyway so what do we care ?"

This is the same car company who said "we don't need thermal management of the battery even in hot climates" and look how that turned out despite Elon Musk, CEO of Tesla saying this was a mistake , why ? because he knew the effects heat would have on the battery with no thermal management.

And when Nissan said it's ok to fast charge multiple times daily, they based that on an average (based on Japanese Driving habits) of 7 thousand miles per year. Which they then turn around and say that you'll get 10 years to 70% based on that 7K miles per year.

Nissan warrant the battery for 60K miles for defects only so whatever degradation that occurs,through fast charging is not covered regardless, it's the leaf buyers problem so of course Nissan will say anything.

I'll leave it to non leaf fans to judge for themselves. I'm not saying it isn't a good car at all, but people need to be aware about fast charging if they want to keep the car or buy 2nd hand.

The battery in the E-Golf, I3 and Kia Soul EV may not be effected nearly as much but we don't know yet.

September1

You are deeply confused, once you talk about FC dangers and then about high mileage. Those are two separate issues.

September1

September1 wrote: »

You are deeply confused, once you talk about FC dangers and then about high mileage. Those are two separate issues.

That's funny coming from someone who thinks a BMS that's rated for a fast charge current has anything to do with whether that will have an effect on battery degradation or not !

80K miles, isn't very high mileage someone would expect a modern car to be usable beyond 150 K miles.

Someone would expect a car to be usable beyond 80k miles. Fine if you only want to do short trips. But people expect more of a modern car.

September1

Deleted User wrote: »

That's funny coming from someone who thinks a BMS that's rated for a fast charge current has anything to do with whether that will have an effect on battery degradation or not !
.

BMS controls FC, it does slow down when battery is hot (and too cold as well). Short increses in temprature seem to have no effect of battery, only longer exposure due to weather. Mode of operation of BMS has much more influence on battery life than chemistry.

You're missing a very important point, if the battery was designed to take the current it would not heat up in the first place. However, if the battery is cooled this greatly reduces degradation.

The 2 nd point is that by the time the change current is reduced the battery is already at the point it causes degredation. And regularly allowing the battery into this stage will accelerate degredation especially if it's allowed to fast charge in to 90% and beyond.

If it's dangerously hot its only then it will not allow a charge at all. This is definitely beyond the point of acceptable temperature and the battery shouldn't even be allowed to the point that the charge current has to be reduced.

Nissan have introduced the so called hot battery which is claimed to be far more resistant to heat. This is still untested in the real world. And it's not supposed to be available in Europe, it's sold only where there could be claims in areas where the climate is hot because the warranty covers this. Fast charging isn't covered and so they don't have to sell it in Europe because people can't claim. They could change this in the future.

The Golf has no cooling, but it may not need it.

BMW wouldn't bother if they thought it wasn't necessary.

Of course a hot climate will cause the fastest degredation but Nikki Gordon Bloomfield's battery degradation was directly related to fast charging.

There could be a lot more cases we don't know about because this is not covered under warranty it won't be reported as failed by nissan.

derry

Excellent info lads
You have confirmed my suspicions on the life time of the battery from all the stuff I seen out there
Now me I am a fan of the electric idea and the new flow battery with 500 mile range fill it up with electric electrolyte liquid in minutes and drive another 500 miles is now on trial in Europe and will probably be the long term solution.
That solution looks to make oil fueled cars into the rubbish bin

However the numbers for the LEAF for the Irish market to me might not add add up to be a such a good deal it can possibly be some a good deal for cash buyers but for others buying with credit its might be getting a tad marginal

Logic shows that at 9 bars of the 12 bars which is ~70% battery capacity is is where many batteries look to arrive after 80,000 miles ( more probably 70K but allow head room) and the are used up then .The practicals are that is battery replacement time

Now lets take simple case Leaf is bought cash €27500 and driven for 80.000 miles in five years and the battery is now needing replacement . Then you go to buy new replacement battery at what cost .
I cant find the numbers but based on the Honda hybrid which cost close to $3500 in the USA so allow for this that the rest €5000 euro in ROI we can safely assume the LEAF battery will cost at least €8,000 probably 10K plus
Not too many people want to put that kinda money back into five year old car so chances are they will walk away from it sell the thing for low money lets assume ~€1500

So five years of that Leaf cost ~€25000 or ~€5000 a year . With ~16000 miles year we can say ~€0.32cent per mile
Electric charges at €1 for 100k equals €80 a year or 1.6 cent per mile
Allow for basic maintenance ~40k miles to each set of tires brake pads and so forth allow lets say ~7cemts per mile maintenance with garages and parts and so forth
Total looks to comes to ~€0.40cents per mile .

Lots of small petrol cars can possibly beat that figure €0.40cents per mile and some medium sized with better resale at five year could also nearly match or even beat that figure
Then there is insurance and tax and other stuff .
I would suggest that €0.60 cent per mile is possible for cash buyers but best to assume €0.75 cents per mile for many punters on credit purchase is the figure they will arrive at

Now the AA calculates s the class B cars in Ireland cost some~€10,700 a year to run or about ~€1.05 a mile to run based on the norm of some 12k miles a year .
Dont ask me where AA pluck their numbers from maybe they learned from Anglo bank but anyway lets assume it is correct .

These are some of the numbers to consider in the strategy if you are to buy the Leaf .
Its probably looking like the three year deal balloon where you do ~20,000 miles year could be winner . You ditch the thing while it has some value and move on and SEP the thing ( somebody else's problem ). However if the word get out these Leaf things are only good for ~80K miles and its only got ~20k miles left in it at three years old car the resale price might not be good for the cash punters to buy .Fpr the garage selling on they can take a hit unless there is sweetner like a new battery is fitted to it for the second buyer to give them 80,000 miles ..

The cash buyer who does 16,000 miles year and keeps it for ten years and replaces the battery after five years might be also ahead of the game Its the cost over time ratio of €27,500 plus new battery for probably ~€8,000 in five years from now that could work out per mile fairly cheap motoring

Every mix in between this is full of incalcubles the cost to borrow money and resale value of the LEAF in 3 to 5 year or more is ???
Also the price of oil fuel rising or falling will effect this .
The Russians have now found huge reserves of fuel in the Russsian artic regions
Possibly fuel supplies could easily remain low for decades unless governments tax the stuff to hell and back .
Some new petrol cars are getting interesting good MPG and can possibly give the present generation of the Leaf a good run for its money .


The electric car sales pitch for many electric cars only ~.2 cents per mile hides the real full story The full story is the electric car when all factors are calculated correctly can cost sometimes the same price per mile to run as Fuel driven car in this time. Also more often it is hard to go below 2/3rd the price per mile than similar fuel cars .

So for that reason even though I am a fan of electric cars for me in this time the Leaf is a non starter for me and diesel or LPG solutions will be where I will go as I have to to do credit purchases to buy this Leaf

However battery development in this time is exponential in growth in ranges and dropping costs fro battery so even in as little as two years the numbers might add up for me to switch camps to go all electric .
For me its simple cost per mile the cheapest possible is where i buy cause I am a cheap skate

Derry

Scottie99

Here battery replacement price per module -

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=product&task=show&cid=3&Itemid=605

derry

derry wrote: »

Excellent info lads
You have confirmed my suspicions on the life time of the battery from all the stuff I seen out there
Now me I am a fan of the electric idea and the new flow battery with 500 mile range fill it up with electric electrolyte liquid in minutes and drive another 500 miles is now on trial in Europe and will probably be the long term solution.
That solution looks to make oil fueled cars into the rubbish bin

However the numbers for the LEAF for the Irish market to me might not add add up to be a such a good deal it can possibly be some a good deal for cash buyers but for others buying with credit its might be getting a tad marginal

Logic shows that at 9 bars of the 12 bars which is ~70% battery capacity is is where many batteries look to arrive after 80,000 miles ( more probably 70K but allow head room) and the are used up then .The practicals are that is battery replacement time

Now lets take simple case Leaf is bought cash €27500 and driven for 80.000 miles in five years and the battery is now needing replacement . Then you go to buy new replacement battery at what cost .
I cant find the numbers but based on the Honda hybrid which cost close to $3500 in the USA so allow for this that the rest €5000 euro in ROI we can safely assume the LEAF battery will cost at least €8,000 probably 10K plus
Not too many people want to put that kinda money back into five year old car so chances are they will walk away from it sell the thing for low money lets assume ~€1500

So five years of that Leaf cost ~€25000 or ~€5000 a year . With ~16000 miles year we can say ~€0.32cent per mile
Electric charges at €1 for 100k equals €80 a year or 1.6 cent per mile
Allow for basic maintenance ~40k miles to each set of tires brake pads and so forth allow lets say ~7cemts per mile maintenance with garages and parts and so forth
Total looks to comes to ~€0.40cents per mile .

Lots of small petrol cars can possibly beat that figure €0.40cents per mile and some medium sized with better resale at five year could also nearly match or even beat that figure
Then there is insurance and tax and other stuff .
I would suggest that €0.60 cent per mile is possible for cash buyers but best to assume €0.75 cents per mile for many punters on credit purchase is the figure they will arrive at

Now the AA calculates s the class B cars in Ireland cost some~€10,700 a year to run or about ~€1.05 a mile to run based on the norm of some 12k miles a year .
Dont ask me where AA pluck their numbers from maybe they learned from Anglo bank but anyway lets assume it is correct .

These are some of the numbers to consider in the strategy if you are to buy the Leaf .
Its probably looking like the three year deal balloon where you do ~20,000 miles year could be winner . You ditch the thing while it has some value and move on and SEP the thing ( somebody else's problem ). However if the word get out these Leaf things are only good for ~80K miles and its only got ~20k miles left in it at three years old car the resale price might not be good for the cash punters to buy .Fpr the garage selling on they can take a hit unless there is sweetner like a new battery is fitted to it for the second buyer to give them 80,000 miles ..

The cash buyer who does 16,000 miles year and keeps it for ten years and replaces the battery after five years might be also ahead of the game Its the cost over time ratio of €27,500 plus new battery for probably ~€8,000 in five years from now that could work out per mile fairly cheap motoring

Every mix in between this is full of incalcubles the cost to borrow money and resale value of the LEAF in 3 to 5 year or more is ???
Also the price of oil fuel rising or falling will effect this .
The Russians have now found huge reserves of fuel in the Russsian artic regions
Possibly fuel supplies could easily remain low for decades unless governments tax the stuff to hell and back .
Some new petrol cars are getting interesting good MPG and can possibly give the present generation of the Leaf a good run for its money .


The electric car sales pitch for many electric cars only ~.2 cents per mile hides the real full story The full story is the electric car when all factors are calculated correctly can cost sometimes the same price per mile to run as Fuel driven car in this time. Also more often it is hard to go below 2/3rd the price per mile than similar fuel cars .

So for that reason even though I am a fan of electric cars for me in this time the Leaf is a non starter for me and diesel or LPG solutions will be where I will go as I have to to do credit purchases to buy this Leaf

However battery development in this time is exponential in growth in ranges and dropping costs fro battery so even in as little as two years the numbers might add up for me to switch camps to go all electric .
For me its simple cost per mile the cheapest possible is where i buy cause I am a cheap skate

Derry

That was a long post and I'm not sure you're numbers are correct.

First of all, someone who does not fast charge the battery daily (until it gets hot) and (a hot battery beyond 80%) should see 80% capacity at 100,000 miles and not 70% at 80,000 as you say.

My point earlier in regard to having a usable car beyond 80,000 miles was in relation to those who clearly abuse their battery by fast charging beyond 80% especially if the battery is hot.

The Leaf battery chemistry is one of the most sensitive to heat and it was a huge mistake of Nissan not to cool the battery.

However, if used properly the Leaf is a fantastic and completely underrated car.

100,000 miles could be 10-15 years for many people, and 5 years for others , after this you should still be able to use the car but with reduced range and it could still be very usable as a 2nd car.

2nd hand values are also very strong for the Leaf in Ireland and better than all other brands except the German brands.

Running costs will be minimal. Sure you can buy a 10 year old car and spend the money on petrol but for those who prefer not to the Leaf is a very good car and will be much cheaper to run than petrol or diesel.

Scottie99

Scottie99 wrote: »

Here battery replacement price per module -

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=product&task=show&cid=3&Itemid=605

This is fine until you pay transport and import duty. Then you got to know what you're doing and I don't think someone will spend 5-7 K on a 5-10 year old car.

One other thing to know is that you'll have to replace all the battery modules because you can't mix old and new batteries.

Nissan use batteries of similar age, capacity and internal resistance when they "repair" the battery when it goes below 70%. Nissan will only ever repair the battery to in or around 70%.

Another point to note is that these advertised cells in the link above are from 2012 and it makes a huge difference to a battery what way it's stored on the shelf, it needs to be stored at the correct temp and voltage, that is not fully charged or no more than about 3.8 V per cell.

It could be a huge gamble buying batteries like this.

Markcheese

Does Nissan have much to help charge the battery correctly , ie programmable controls,
Would have thought being able to remotely change the cars charge,or set specific parameters for charging would help prolong battery life...

derry

Deleted User wrote:

That was a long post and I'm not sure you're numbers are correct.

First of all, someone who does not fast charge the battery daily (until it gets hot) and (a hot battery beyond 80%) should see 80% capacity at 100,000 miles and not 70% at 80,000 as you say.

My point earlier in regard to having a usable car beyond 80,000 miles was in relation to those who clearly abuse their battery by fast charging beyond 80% especially if the battery is hot.

All I can tell you is if I had one of these toys it would spend most times on fast charging as I would be going from Dublin to Kerry 5 times as much as normal as it would costs buttons each trip .The battery would be abused 100% recharge most every time at fast charge with several recharges in one day. I would probably also go for spin to Turkey in it to see my sister who has house there . I would probably do 30,000 miles year easy

In Arizona a hot place they were often getting batteries to drop below 70% 9 bars at 70,000 miles due to the extra heat there .

Now Simple Simon says to me once the baboons brigade like me who are petrol heads start to get these toys they are gonna go for it fast charging ~5 times a day to 100% you name it .
Presently the Leaf car are getting used by the leccy brigade who study this and treat batteries with respect and the civil service type who can predict their schedules and driving for decades in advance .
So for me I would assume that the batteries life for the majority of Leafs once they become more mainstream will be more like ~70,000 to ~80,000 miles and a there will be in there a few well treated Leafs might make the 100,000 miles

Deleted User wrote:

The Leaf battery chemistry is one of the most sensitive to heat and it was a huge mistake of Nissan not to cool the battery.

However, if used properly the Leaf is a fantastic and completely underrated car.

100,000 miles could be 10-15 years for many people, and 5 years for others , after this you should still be able to use the car but with reduced range and it could still be very usable as a 2nd car.

2nd hand values are also very strong for the Leaf in Ireland and better than all other brands except the German brands.

Running costs will be minimal. Sure you can buy a 10 year old car and spend the money on petrol but for those who prefer not to the Leaf is a very good car and will be much cheaper to run than petrol or diesel.

Yes what you say is correct for some types of motorists but the world is made of all sorts .The newer flow batteries with ~500 mile range rapid recharge will be seamless for the petrol heads they wont notice the issues .
The leaf is here now and there are people who buy it now who will cause more sales to people like me who will use the cheaper running costs to do more miles per year than before .

The problem for punters like me in this time who would max out with high credit leverage is the saving are not so interesting to change over in this time . Running older bangers big and small works out cheapest in this time .
However I would be the type that could buy these 48 modules of 4 packs 2s2p 60mha at ~$120 a pack pay the imports so probably cost ~€7K to replace the pack on clapped on pack on three year leaf old car if the Leaf price was reduced enough .
I would also look to put in my own cooling solutions to try to get my pack to ~100,000 even with fast charging solutions to 100%

However I dont know what the rest of the joes out there will do some will be low mileage keep a pack for 16 years and some will be ~100,000 milers a year
I do suspect that many ~12000 miler people a year with Petrol cars will suddenly become ~16,000 a miles a year with the Leaf solutions.
I know the cost drop per mile when I get small cars with more MPG result in me doing more miles that year.The bigger car with more costs I reduce my driving to suit the budget for driving .


For battery killers like me who instead to burn the rubber with dough nuts will cook the battery to make our tea stay hot the battery becomes a consumable like the tires or brake pads .
Assuming a average of ~100 miles per recharge with battery replacement cost ~€7000 and some ~70,000 miles between battery packs that com es out a ~€0.1o a mile in this time for the battery similar to running costs of small petrol cars .However in mere two years the next replacement pack might be able to do ~100,000 with this fast charge abuse use It will probably recharge30% quicker and probably be ~20% cheaper to buy the pack . After a decade I could easy see the ranges for the same packs doubled to 200 miles average and going easy reach 300 miles with the recharge speeds halved to 10 minutes for ~80% charge up and the price for the packs halved to ~€3500 in this time . So for me the cross over point for me to buy into Leaf will probably be in two years time and I will tool my garage up on how to make these packs and replace the battery pack every three years and keep a leaf car easy some twenty years and burn up a battery pack every three years . For others who do low mileage now might be the time to buy into LEAF . I cant tell others what to do I can only tell you what suits me best

However if I had the €27500 to spare in my back pocket I would probably buy one today and have blast for the next three years killing the battery pack . However even if my credit could take the hit €28K or 22 k hit if i was able to get back that €5000 sweetner (which my guess is the government would claw back on me from unpaid tax) I never do credit to more than €7000 for cars as credit adds to much to the running costs. So it will have to be probably a 5 year old leaf when it comes up with clapped out battery and I get it cheap enough and refit a new battery in

Derry

September1

Basing on actual measurements of battery capacity of few LEAFs where owners allowed to connect to diagnostics port, I can confirm that fast charging might be positively correlated with capacity - in other words cars that FC more often seem to hold better.

September1

September1 wrote: »

Basing on actual measurements of battery capacity of few LEAFs where owners allowed to connect to diagnostics port, I can confirm that fast charging might be positively correlated with capacity - in other words cars that FC more often seem to hold better.

The diagnostics doesn't show if the battery has been fast charged beyond 80% and how hot it's got or how many fast charges in one day etc.

derry

derry wrote: »

All I can tell you is if I had one of these toys it would spend most times on fast charging as I would be going from Dublin to Kerry 5 times as much as normal as it would costs buttons each trip .The battery would be abused 100% recharge most every time at fast charge with several recharges in one day. I would probably also go for spin to Turkey in it to see my sister who has house there . I would probably do 30,000 miles year easy

In Arizona a hot place they were often getting batteries to drop below 70% 9 bars at 70,000 miles due to the extra heat there .

Now Simple Simon says to me once the baboons brigade like me who are petrol heads start to get these toys they are gonna go for it fast charging ~5 times a day to 100% you name it .
Presently the Leaf car are getting used by the leccy brigade who study this and treat batteries with respect and the civil service type who can predict their schedules and driving for decades in advance .
So for me I would assume that the batteries life for the majority of Leafs once they become more mainstream will be more like ~70,000 to ~80,000 miles and a there will be in there a few well treated Leafs might make the 100,000 miles




Yes what you say is correct for some types of motorists but the world is made of all sorts .The newer flow batteries with ~500 mile range rapid recharge will be seamless for the petrol heads they wont notice the issues .
The leaf is here now and there are people who buy it now who will cause more sales to people like me who will use the cheaper running costs to do more miles per year than before .

The problem for punters like me in this time who would max out with high credit leverage is the saving are not so interesting to change over in this time . Running older bangers big and small works out cheapest in this time .
However I would be the type that could buy these 48 modules of 4 packs 2s2p 60mha at ~$120 a pack pay the imports so probably cost ~€7K to replace the pack on clapped on pack on three year leaf old car if the Leaf price was reduced enough .
I would also look to put in my own cooling solutions to try to get my pack to ~100,000 even with fast charging solutions to 100%

However I dont know what the rest of the joes out there will do some will be low mileage keep a pack for 16 years and some will be ~100,000 milers a year
I do suspect that many ~12000 miler people a year with Petrol cars will suddenly become ~16,000 a miles a year with the Leaf solutions.
I know the cost drop per mile when I get small cars with more MPG result in me doing more miles that year.The bigger car with more costs I reduce my driving to suit the budget for driving .


For battery killers like me who instead to burn the rubber with dough nuts will cook the battery to make our tea stay hot the battery becomes a consumable like the tires or brake pads .
Assuming a average of ~100 miles per recharge with battery replacement cost ~€7000 and some ~70,000 miles between battery packs that com es out a ~€0.1o a mile in this time for the battery similar to running costs of small petrol cars .However in mere two years the next replacement pack might be able to do ~100,000 with this fast charge abuse use It will probably recharge30% quicker and probably be ~20% cheaper to buy the pack . After a decade I could easy see the ranges for the same packs doubled to 200 miles average and going easy reach 300 miles with the recharge speeds halved to 10 minutes for ~80% charge up and the price for the packs halved to ~€3500 in this time . So for me the cross over point for me to buy into Leaf will probably be in two years time and I will tool my garage up on how to make these packs and replace the battery pack every three years and keep a leaf car easy some twenty years and burn up a battery pack every three years . For others who do low mileage now might be the time to buy into LEAF . I cant tell others what to do I can only tell you what suits me best

However if I had the €27500 to spare in my back pocket I would probably buy one today and have blast for the next three years killing the battery pack . However even if my credit could take the hit €28K or 22 k hit if i was able to get back that €5000 sweetner (which my guess is the government would claw back on me from unpaid tax) I never do credit to more than €7000 for cars as credit adds to much to the running costs. So it will have to be probably a 5 year old leaf when it comes up with clapped out battery and I get it cheap enough and refit a new battery in

Derry

That's a mental long post!

You can always wait for the E-Golf, Kia Soul or I3, the I3 having a liquid cooled battery.

The Soul and E-Golf may not need it.