National Series Ranking

niamh.foley

Hi all i notice
Chris Mintern from Cork Tri was dropped to Second place over all on the National Series Ranking, reading his twitter account he didnt seem a happy camper.

sconhome

Points make prizes.

This is where strategic racing comes into it's own. It doens't necessarily mean the best triathlete wins overall but more those that race smarter.

niamh.foley

AKW wrote: »

Points make prizes.

This is where strategic racing comes into it's own. It doens't necessarily mean the best triathlete wins overall but more those that race smarter.

makes no sense, he won 5/6 National series Races that he entered, the only one he didn't win was the Middle Distance Tri

how can you race any smarter then putting 5 Races into the bag ?

EC1000

niamh.foley wrote: »

makes no sense, he won 5/6 National series Races that he entered, the only one he didn't win was the Middle Distance Tri

how can you race any smarter then putting 5 Races into the bag ?

If you look into how points are currently calculated you will see that it has nothing to do with winning or finishing second. It is based on how your time compares to the time of the person who finished 30% down the field. Thankfully this will soon be a thing of the past.

niamh.foley

EC1000 wrote: »

If you look into how points are currently calculated you will see that it has nothing to do with winning or finishing second. It is based on how your time compares to the time of the person who finished 30% down the field. Thankfully this will soon be a thing of the past.

lol what a f..up system,

sconhome

niamh.foley wrote: »

makes no sense, he won 5/6 National series Races that he entered, the only one he didn't win was the Middle Distance Tri

how can you race any smarter then putting 5 Races into the bag ?

The way points are calculated if all you race are the top 6 races where everyone races (at the pointy end) your points are going to be rubbish.

EG, Kilkee is the worst race to attend if you are chasing points. Pretty much the top 30% are all premier racers from around the country.

As I said, not about the best triathlete, the smartest wins the points.

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

lol what a f..up system,

The NS is an age group competition, it was not intended to be "won" over all.

It would be like have the premiership, championship, League one, League two, and Conference and then saying whoever scored the most goals one the lot.

But hey........

bryangiggsy

EC1000 wrote: »

If you look into how points are currently calculated you will see that it has nothing to do with winning or finishing second. It is based on how your time compares to the time of the person who finished 30% down the field. Thankfully this will soon be a thing of the past.

Not for 98% of age groupers

EC1000

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Not for 98% of age groupers

As I was typing that I knew you were going to respond

sconhome

niamh.foley wrote: »

makes no sense, he won 5/6 National series Races that he entered,

AFAIR you score from 5 races regardless of how many you do overall.

Looks to me like he was beaten before Pulse Port and Tomasz just had to mark him in that race to hold onto the points lead.

Briando

niamh.foley wrote: »

Hi all i notice
Chris Mintern from Cork Tri was dropped to Second place over all on the National Series Ranking, reading his twitter account he didnt seem a happy camper.

It seems the points were calculated incorrectly for Blacksod as everybody had their points earned there reduced. It was unfortunate that TI didn't find the error here sooner to avoid disappointing Chris and the embarrassment caused by sending an email showing him to be top before correcting it. I certainly don't think there is some conspiracy against Chris by TI, after all he is one of their athletes.

As for racing smart, I've seen this in previous years where people were able to dodge other athletes by going to another NS series race being held on the same weekend and harvest points. (In the past you could race an NS sprint race while others were racing an NS olympic race on the same weekend). I chatted to Tomaz about his racing and he always wanted the chance to race against the best guys in the same waves and at races easy to get to from Dublin. I never got the impression he was looking for backwater races to avoid people, in fairness he raced his heart out from the start of the season(Athy) to the end of the season(Cloggerhead) and deserves some congratulations for topping the NS this year.

niamh.foley

Briando wrote: »

in fairness he raced his heart out from the start of the season(Athy) to the end of the season(Cloggerhead) and deserves some congratulations for topping the NS this year.

no one is saying he doesn't deserve the Title.
it would be easier on every one if TI had a set Score card, Winner takes 150 points 2nd takes 125, 3rd takes 100, 4th 95, 5th 75, outside 5th takes 50 points each for an Olympic you could double the points.
something in the lines of that and it doesnt make a difference what race you do all the points are the same

EC1000

niamh.foley wrote: »

no one is saying he doesn't deserve the Title.
it would be easier on every one if TI had a set Score card, Winner takes 150 points 2nd takes 125, 3rd takes 100, 4th 95, 5th 75, outside 5th takes 50 points each for an Olympic you could double the points.
something in the lines of that and it doesnt make a difference what race you do all the points are the same

May I suggest you read this thread.........

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057286928

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

no one is saying he doesn't deserve the Title.
it would be easier on every one if TI had a set Score card, Winner takes 150 points 2nd takes 125, 3rd takes 100, 4th 95, 5th 75, outside 5th takes 50 points each for an Olympic you could double the points.
something in the lines of that and it doesnt make a difference what race you do all the points are the same

So Chris turns up to a race with a sh*t standard and wins, he gets 150.

Tomaz turns to to a fantastic standard race and beats Gavin Noble, the gets 150

Fair?

niamh.foley

tunney wrote: »

So Chris turns up to a race with a sh*t standard and wins, he gets 150.

Tomaz turns to to a fantastic standard race and beats Gavin Noble, the gets 150

Fair?

Well Chris won in INTERSPORT Belfast Titanic Standard Triathlonand also Pulse Port Beach Triathlon which Tomaz raced in

and why would a Pro race in the NS, so what point are you trying to make ?

Also Aaron o Brien came up against Chris in The Edge SPorts Blackwater Triathlon and came Second, Both Aaron and Tomaz raced each other in Dublin City Tri and guess what Aaron beat him..

3 Tri Tomaz raced in that had the top 3 and he came Second to both Chris and Aaron,

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

Well Chris won in INTERSPORT Belfast Titanic Standard Triathlonand also Pulse Port Beach Triathlon which Tomaz raced in

and why would a Pro race in the NS, so what point are you trying to make ?

Also Aaron o Brien came up against Chris in The Edge SPorts Blackwater Triathlon and came Second, Both Aaron and Tomaz raced each other in Dublin City Tri and guess what Aaron beat him..

3 Tri Tomaz raced in that had the top 3 and he came Second to both Chris and Aaron,

Okay I shouldn't have used concrete examples, obviously made it a little tricky for you.

Some NS races can have a weak field, a decent athlete could stroll around not be challenged.

Some NS races can have a strong field, a decent athlete would have to work hard to place/win.

Should both races have equal points? IMHO no.

And its important to remember that the NS was never intended as an "overall winner" thing. Nor to be used to pick top eight for super sprints.
Its an age group/ competition. Equally valid for F70-74 as M25-29

Try viewing the NS in the context it was intended not what is has been bastardised into.

The moment you start viewing the NS as having an "overall winner" or a "top eight" you've already made a mistake mistake to both your understanding and argument.

But hey you ignore all this and go on about Chris again.

sconhome

niamh.foley wrote: »

and why would a Pro race in the NS, so what point are you trying to make ?

The pros are just as entitled to race in the NS as anyone else. As TI members they can claim the points but that would be against the spirit of the event as an age group competition.

Having siad that Bryan Keane, Gavin Noble, Byran McCrystal have all been invited in the past to club events to raise the profile. Whether they abstain from the point or not is something I am not aware of.

If the top 30% in the race are very close in time differential (as what often happens in the big races) then the point are pretty poor.

If the top 30% are quite diverse, lets say 10 from 100 entrants are pointy end people the remaining 90 are local club racers then the time difference from 1 -30 could be quite a spread which means bigger points for the top finishers. This is what I meant by racing strategically (intended or otherwise). Tomasz got 129 for one of his races so the differential was bigger.

niamh.foley

tunney wrote: »

Okay I shouldn't have used concrete examples, obviously made it a little tricky for you.

Some NS races can have a weak field, a decent athlete could stroll around not be challenged.

Some NS races can have a strong field, a decent athlete would have to work hard to place/win.

Should both races have equal points? IMHO no.

And its important to remember that the NS was never intended as an "overall winner" thing. Nor to be used to pick top eight for super sprints.
Its an age group/ competition. Equally valid for F70-74 as M25-29

Try viewing the NS in the context it was intended not what is has been bastardised into.

The moment you start viewing the NS as having an "overall winner" or a "top eight" you've already made a mistake mistake to both your understanding and argument.

But hey you ignore all this and go on about Chris again.

Sorry love you didnt make any thing a little tricky for me.

I didnt go on about chris again, but you tried to make a point in where it seems that Tomaz goes to the hardest and the other goes to the weaker ones, that is why i brought chris back into it, but i also stated that Aaron also raced agaisnt tomaz and won,

i do stand by my view on each race should carry the same amount of points,

but you could offer like Hell of the West or TriAthy double points to make the top 5 show up to those races,

in the likely hood of the top 5 meeting each other week in week is not all that high some people like to race around your provinces less cost on the person
i dont race outside my province, as i cant offered to travel around Ireland racing.

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

Sorry love you didnt make any thing a little tricky for me.

I didnt go on about chris again, but you tried to make a point in where it seems that Tomaz goes to the hardest and the other goes to the weaker ones, that is why i brought chris back into it, but i also stated that Aaron also raced agaisnt tomaz and won,

i do stand by my view on each race should carry the same amount of points,

Based on what? A friend of yours didn't win? boo hoo hoo.

Firstly give a reasonable definition of the NS.
Now come up with a scoring system that is reconcilable with that definition.

niamh.foley wrote: »

but you could offer like Hell of the West or TriAthy double points to make the top 5 show up to those races,

Bonus points were given to NC, people whinged

niamh.foley wrote: »

in the likely hood of the top 5 meeting each other week in week is not all that high some people like to race around your provinces less cost on the person
i dont race outside my province, as i cant offered to travel around Ireland racing.

So you want something that will work for someone who isn't committed and won't make sacrifices? Okay then.........

The NS is not about the top 5. Lets say that again. Maybe caps will help THE NS IS NOT ABOUT THE TOP 5. Does it need to be in colour maybe?

Its an age group competition. Here is a link that might help on age group triathlon. http://www.britishtriathlon.org/about/faqs/age-group-faqs

sconhome

niamh.foley wrote: »

Sorry love you didnt make any thing a little tricky for me.

I didnt go on about chris again, but you tried to make a point in where it seems that Tomaz goes to the hardest and the other goes to the weaker ones, that is why i brought chris back into it, but i also stated that Aaron also raced agaisnt tomaz and won,

i do stand by my view on each race should carry the same amount of points,

but you could offer like Hell of the West or TriAthy double points to make the top 5 show up to those races,

in the likely hood of the top 5 meeting each other week in week is not all that high some people like to race around your provinces less cost on the person
i dont race outside my province, as i cant offered to travel around Ireland racing.

Niamh, it's actually the other way around. If someone races the toughter races where the competition is fierce then the points are tight, bigger fields like Athy / Athlone can seem less competitive and bigger points spread.

There is a huge thread with loads of stats on the breakdown of the points and how they are calculated.

Ultimately it looks like Chris has lost out this season as a result of statistics. That's what the existing NS series is about.

niamh.foley

tunney wrote: »

Based on what? A friend of yours didn't win? boo hoo hoo.

my friends or i never won a race as we are all race groupers.

MojoMaker

I raced against Tomasz a few times this summer, he's an excellent athlete and the 2014 National Series champion - and congratulations to him for a successful year.

When he races in Super Series next year with Aaron and Chris - will he consistently beat them? Maybe, maybe not, he may have an excellent winter and come out even stronger next year. Chris & Aaron may do other things next year. Tomasz may pack it in, who knows. For now he's the NS champion and that's it.

Chris will have a mighty crack at Super Series next year I imagine and he will certainly be in the mix if he chooses to compete I have little doubt. On this occasion he was pipped to the line through the vagaries of a scoring system not suited to elite competition - that is changing and for the elites it should be more transparent next year who really is the "best" athlete in the land.

Each of the 3 - Aaron, Chris, and Tomasz are fine ambassadors for the sport of Triathlon and very down to earth lads individually.

tunney

In looking into something for another reason discovered of the 9000 TI members only 375 "did" the National series, as in five races.

EC1000

tunney wrote: »

In looking into something for another reason discovered of the 9000 TI members only 375 "did" the National series, as in five races.

That was part of the rationale for the restructure in the TI document.

tunney

EC1000 wrote: »

That was part of the rationale for the restructure in the TI document.

Interesting, because I didn't see anything that would make the NS more attractive to the other 8625 people.

EC1000

tunney wrote: »

Interesting, because I didn't see anything that would make the NS more attractive to the other 8625 people.

Also interesting that you didn't respond to my other post. But that's ok. Its easier to be critical than to be creative.

tunney

EC1000 wrote: »

Also interesting that you didn't respond to my other post. But that's ok. Its easier to be critical than to be creative.

Other than "creative posts" what has your contribution to the sport in Ireland been?

EC1000

tunney wrote: »

Other than "creative posts" what has your contribution to the sport in Ireland been?

Nothing. Nada. But that hardly addresses the point.

niamh.foley

tunney wrote: »

Other than "creative posts" what has your contribution to the sport in Ireland been?

By him racing in NS or non NS events over priced events at that, generates money for TI Ireland and revenue for the club holding the event.

if you look at it 50 euro for TI membership by 9000 members = 450,000 euros for TI Ireland

an Event which costs 50 pp like Little Bo peep which saw 168 this year
Take in 8,250 euro. cost of running the event could be no more the 2 - 3 take home 5,250.

even if you dont race you are still making this sport in the Country to what it is now by just paying for your TI membership

or even hell of the West 950 people this year at 60 euros total take in 57k for Limerick Tri club

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

By him racing in NS or non NS events over priced events at that, generates money for TI Ireland and revenue for the club holding the event.

if you look at it 50 euro for TI membership by 9000 members = 450,000 euros for TI Ireland

an Event which costs 50 pp like Little Bo peep which saw 168 this year
Take in 8,250 euro. cost of running the event could be no more the 2 - 3 take home 5,250.

even if you dont race you are still making this sport in the Country to what it is now by just paying for your TI membership

or even hell of the West 950 people this year at 60 euros total take in 57k for Limerick Tri club

Run Forest Run.

tunney

EC1000 wrote: »

Nothing. Nada. But that hardly addresses the point.

Actually it does. You are all huff and no puff.

Volunteer, spend a few years contributing your time for free in the organisation (regional or national), and not as a power hungry TO. Then your demands for "creative posts" about problems might carry more weight. All you have said repeatedly is "well where is your better idea?" and "have you got a better idea?". Sign up, volunteer, come up with a better idea yourself and implement it. Time to give and not just take.

sconhome

niamh.foley wrote: »

an Event which costs 50 pp like Little Bo peep which saw 168 this year
Take in 8,250 euro. cost of running the event could be no more the 2 - 3 take home 5,250.

Any idea of the costs of running events?

niamh.foley

AKW wrote: »

Any idea of the costs of running events?

could be in the ball park of 2 - 3k, at the cost of a club and i would take it TI would give some money outside of the 3k towards the running of an Event.
if it costs any more i cant see the point in smaller clubs doing Races.

griffin100

AKW wrote: »

Any idea of the costs of running events?

Perhaps you might enlighten us?

sconhome

griffin100 wrote: »

Perhaps you might enlighten us?

I'm not an event organiser so have no idea. I asked the question, not offered an opinion, cos I thought the suggested cost of 2-3 was a per person price.

Niamh had since qualified her answer with a 'k' which makes more sense.

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

could be in the ball park of 2 - 3k, at the cost of a club and i would take it TI would give some money outside of the 3k towards the running of an Event.
if it costs any more i cant see the point in smaller clubs doing Races.

You think Ti contributes to the running of races?

Did Alicia Silverstone star in the story of your life?

BTH

tunney wrote: »

Actually it does. You are all huff and no puff.

Volunteer, spend a few years contributing your time for free in the organisation (regional or national), and not as a power hungry TO. Then your demands for "creative posts" about problems might carry more weight. All you have said repeatedly is "well where is your better idea?" and "have you got a better idea?". Sign up, volunteer, come up with a better idea yourself and implement it. Time to give and not just take.

He has done RD a couple of times for a NS race. Think he's doing more than most of those 9000.

BTH

niamh.foley wrote: »

could be in the ball park of 2 - 3k, at the cost of a club and i would take it TI would give some money outside of the 3k towards the running of an Event.
if it costs any more i cant see the point in smaller clubs doing Races.

If you've never been involved in running a race don't bother to guess at the costs involved as you've clearly no idea.

TI contribute referees and nothing else.

And clubs organise races predominantly for the sport and to show off their locale. Money is a secondary thought, for most.

EC1000

tunney wrote: »

and not as a power hungry TO

I had a little LOL at this! I'll send you a PM later if I have time.

bryangiggsy

National Age group competition is finished in Ireland . The National Series is beyond a joke at this stage. TI had a chance to move forward but have instead moved further back for 98% of age groupers.

niamh.foley

tunney wrote: »

You think Ti contributes to the running of races?

Did Alicia Silverstone star in the story of your life?

WTF is with you and your sarcastic remarks ?

I have no idea if TI contributes to the running my guess is as good as any one else here, its an opinion

mossym

niamh.foley wrote: »

I have no idea if TI contributes to the running my guess is as good as any one else here, its an opinion

a lot here don't have to guess, they've been involved in races and know exactly what TI contribute.

Boardcore

bryangiggsy wrote: »

National Age group competition is finished in Ireland . The National Series is beyond a joke at this stage. TI had a chance to move forward but have instead moved further back for 98% of age groupers.

TI have reduced the card to 4 races from next year, this might make it more accessible to the masses, certainly cheaper by a 5th. Five races can be a bit of a struggle, in terms of finances and arriving at the start line injury free.

The relay idea may inject some much needed fun back into the races.

Fazz

bryangiggsy wrote: »

National Age group competition is finished in Ireland . The National Series is beyond a joke at this stage. TI had a chance to move forward but have instead moved further back for 98% of age groupers.

In what sense is National Age Group competition finished?
In what sense are you coming at this from?

Do you measure your overall performance in the NS and grade yourself based on overall finishing position?
Or measure yourself based on race performance in National Champs races?

I don't think your comment is fair, I'm not certain of your approach to this but the new system can in fact likely enable non Div 1 athletes to now compete for higher placings in other races.
And I think the overall scoring remains the same for non Div 1 so no change there.


Ok so we now have a super series for the Junior/Elite/Top AG'er's.

There remains a large number of National Series events which now will likely become targets for non Div 1 athletes going for podiums and wins etc.

National Champs awards to date have always been almost a 1 for everyone in the audience situation.

As an athlete, I would value a podium finish above an AG placing.
Or a top 5 at a big race above an 8th but 1st in Age Group.

What do you rank your performance against to have a negative view on the revised system, which simply seperates the Div 1 athletes to make their scoring and the overall scoring for those that matter (top placings) more fairer.

Does it really matter if someone comes 12th in the NS overall AG but would have been 10th if he had chosen to race the big scoring points races?