Parents reporting teachers to the principal - Have you experienced it?

Peter Flynt

I have a reasonably weak second year Maths class - Well when I say weak it is my belief that they have ability but they lack focus, discipline and are not the most hard working to say the least.

"I don't get that" is a regular annoying interruption when I'm explaining something. . .much to my frustration

Anyway it was my plan at the start of the academic year to push as many of these kids to do Junior Cert Honours Maths. I have painstakingly done (and continue to do) hours of preparatory work on Keynote slides to improve the quality of the instruction.

First though - order and discipline and a willingness to work hard had to be a necessity from them.

So one day I assigned homework in which, whilst difficult, all that was required was a sign of effort.

So the following day I checked the homework as I suspected that a large number did not do it. I was right - roughly half the class had not even attempted.

I then proceeded to sign their journals to let their parents know and assigned written punishment work (which I loathe to do and something I virtually never do)

The next day I received the following:
- Letters from parents telling me that their child was instructed by them not to do the punishment work.
- Another parent told their child that she was not signing the note.
- Another parent wrote to me to tell me that she didn't take too kindly to calling the class "stupid" - which was a blatant lie.

It didn't end there. A number of parents approached the Principal directly to make complaints.

The Principal then approached me and I explained my side.

The Principal completely agreed with my stance of pushing these kids to do HL Maths . . .

Thoughts?

Have you been involved in reporting teachers to Principals for installing discipline? If so how did you get on?

Are you a teacher who has been on the end of something similar?

PS - I am a highly experienced and considered an excellent teacher btw.

Millem

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I have a reasonably weak second year Maths class - Well when I say weak it is my belief that they have ability but they lack focus, discipline and are not the most hard working to say the least.

"I don't get that" is a regular annoying interruption when I'm explaining something. . .much to my frustration

Anyway it was my plan at the start of the academic year to push as many of these kids to do Junior Cert Honours Maths. I have painstakingly done (and continue to do) hours of preparatory work on Keynote slides to improve the quality of the instruction.

First though - order and discipline and a willingness to work hard had to be a necessity from them.

So one day I assigned homework in which, whilst difficult, all that was required was a sign of effort.

So the following day I checked the homework as I suspected that a large number did not do it. I was right - roughly half the class had not even attempted.

I then proceeded to sign their journals to let their parents know and assigned non academic punishment work (which I loathe to do and something I virtually never do)

The next day I received the following:
- Letters from parents telling me that their child was instructed by them not to do the punishment work.
- Another parent told their child that she was not signing the note.
- Another parent wrote to me to tell me that she didn't take too kindly to calling the class "stupid" - which was a blatant lie.

It didn't end there. A number of parents approached the Principal directly to make complaints.

The Principal then approached me and I explained my side.

The Principal completely agreed with my stance of pushing these kids to do HL Maths . . .

Thoughts?

Have you been involved in reporting teachers to Principals for installing discipline? If so how did you get on?

Are you a teacher who has been on the end of something similar?

PS - I am a highly experienced and considered an excellent teacher btw.

What was the "non academic" punishment? I give 1 chance for not doing homework but record it in their journal (and mine). After that I give a lunchtime detention for 20mins.

Peter Flynt

Millem wrote: »

What was the "non academic" punishment? I give 1 chance for not doing homework but record it in their journal (and mine). After that I give a lunchtime detention for 20mins.

Oh Just a couple of pages to write out

pandoraj09

Was the couple of pages to write out from the maths book?

pandoraj09

I see the answer in your first post. Its not acceptable practice to give "worthless" write outs and you are only getting the parents and the students backs up by doing this. Now you have a negative atmosphere in your class. I used to give "lines" years ago but it has no benefit and I'm not surprised you got those notes from parents....

Peter Flynt

pandoraj09 wrote: »

I see the answer in your first post. Its not acceptable practice to give "worthless" write outs and you are only getting the parents and the students backs up by doing this. Now you have a negative atmosphere in your class. I used to give "lines" years ago but it has no benefit and I'm not surprised you got those notes from parents....

It's a form of punishment. . . There's not meant to be a benefit.

As I've pointed out - I don't give out written punishment work. This was a rarity - a one off. The parents decided their kids weren't doing it . . . because their kids told them to write the notes.

uck51js9zml2yt

What does the principal say about it?
Having endured thousands of pointless lines as it kid I can't see any benefit in non academic punishment.

bearhugs

I have found its usually best to stick to our schools discipline steps as outlined in the student journal. The first step is a note home, etc. It's really the only way for you to have a leg to stand on in these situations. We had a similar situation a few years ago where a class was kept ten minutes past the bell and given similar written work as punishment. Unlike your situation all students were punished not just the guilty ones. After the furore from parents had died down we decided in a staff meeting that it wasn't appropriate to do either and staff were asked to stick to the guidelines. Makes it much easier all around imo.

indigo twist

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I have a reasonably weak second year Maths class - Well when I say weak it is my belief that they have ability but they lack focus, discipline and are not the most hard working to say the least.

"I don't get that" is a regular annoying interruption when I'm explaining something. . .much to my frustration

But doesn't this tell you that they do have interest in the lesson; they are actually paying attention; they do want to learn?

Peter Flynt wrote: »

PS - I am a highly experienced and considered an excellent teacher btw.

Honestly it sounds to me like you have a class of students who probably want to do well, but might possibly need a bit more help than other students you've taught. You might be quite confident about your excellence as a teacher, but surely your methods need to be adapted for each class, and need to be changed as time passes?

Peter Flynt

indigo twist wrote: »

But doesn't this tell you that they do have interest in the lesson; they are actually paying attention; they do want to learn?



Honestly it sounds to me like you have a class of students who probably want to do well, but might possibly need a bit more help than other students you've taught. You might be quite confident about your excellence as a teacher, but surely your methods need to be adapted for each class, and need to be changed as time passes?

Actually I have adapted and used more ICT to help them as they are a very weak class.

Their interruption of the teacher (i.e. me) is commonplace in their classes and they do not realise that this is serious indiscipline that prevents learning from occurring. This is WHY they are weak - It is not because they lack ability.

It's my job to maintain discipline. However parents have decided that they'll decide the level of discipline.

No doubt if too much homework is given . . I'll be informed of the consequences.

I could easily just pick up the Ordinary Level book and decide . . . Well this is the level we're at for the workload ye're prepared to do.

Dr Turk Turkelton

In the history of time has there ever been a worse or lazier solution to a problem than giving students something to write out as punishment?

evolving_doors

2nd yr maths is the most difficult group to be timetabled for. The stakes are high as they should be deciding on levels this year. Also they probably had it very easy in first year to encourage a positive attitude.

Id say the punishment was a bit shock and awe... but then again the OP has set out their stall on what students are expected to do.

As regards the parents... as long as the complaints are initially passed on directly to the teacher rather than via an intermediary (principal/form tutor/year head/dept. head) then its a good sign you can work a peace deal. Once you start getting a tap on the shoulder and a quiet word from a colleague then you know youve been undermined.

Peter Flynt

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

In the history of time has there ever been a worse or lazier solution to a problem than giving students something to write out as punishment?

Great soundbite.

Peter Flynt

Armelodie wrote: »

2nd yr maths is the most difficult group to be timetabled for. The stakes are high as they should be deciding on levels this year. Also they probably had it very easy in first year to encourage a positive attitude.

Id say the punishment was a bit shock and awe... but then again the OP has set out their stall on what students are expected to do.

As regards the parents... as long as the complaints are initially passed on directly to the teacher rather than via an intermediary (principal/form tutor/year head/dept. head) then its a good sign you can work a peace deal. Once you start getting a tap on the shoulder and a quiet word from a colleague then you know youve been undermined.

Pretty much my own view summed up there.

The parents will be banging on the Principals door when their child is in fifth year looking to do Leaving Cert Honours Maths . . . with the now 25 points going for taking the subject.

They do not realise that LCHL Maths begins in second year . . . You cannot have a late start and this particular class needs to be trained to take on the mentality of a class with ambition.

If the atmosphere is not one of learning, one of seriousness. . then action has to be taken.

I'm not necessarily stating that written punishment work is the answer but, it seems to me, any action taken was going to be met with a response from the parents as they cannot see the woods from the trees.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Great soundbite.

Sorry Sir,I'll go write out Homers Odyssey now to help me learn maths.

spurious

I never gave anything other than a pointless exercise as punishment. I would not use schoolwork as punishment - that would defeat the purpose. They're disengaged enough already.

Squatman

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

In the history of time has there ever been a worse or lazier solution to a problem than giving students something to write out as punishment?

MOD NOTE

No back-seat modding.
Please read the charter.

Peter Flynt

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Sorry Sir,I'll go write out Homers Odyssey now to help me learn maths.

This is not an issue about punishment work. . . .So - Off you go.

spurious

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Sorry Sir,I'll go write out Homers Odyssey now to help me learn maths.

No, you will make your hand sore and maybe next time in Maths you will behave.

masonchat

If you were a doctor i would say you have a poor bedside manner.

Here is another soundbite for you, a bad workman blames his tools, from my time in school we gave some teachers (not me ) a very hard time to the extent one poor man had a break down, but the better teachers always commanded respect and interest from all but the really worst messer or two.

You got my back up just from your post, nothing to do with the punishment you handed out

2Mad2BeMad

I agree with the post above me

I was a big messer in school along with a few of my mates, we'd give some teachers awful time, I remember one ran out of the classroom crying ( Feel like a jerk for doing it now) but back then I found it funny,
But when it came to a subject I liked, or a teacher I respected, I wouldn't mess.

Handing out lines as punishment, doesn't work.
Give detention (that didnt work for me but for most it would :P) if you're school does one hour detentions after school, give that instead of lines, no kid wants to stay in school a whole hour after its over.

Also I disagree with trying to push you're students to do higher level maths. Let them take what they want. Its their decision, if they get it wrong, its not the end of the world. Its the junior cert, it means nothing, regarding higher level maths for leaving cert, if they do it ordinary in the junior cert, and regret it, then they will put that extra effort in for the leaving if they want to bump up to higher again.

Don't push students into doing something they don't want to do, they will act out against it, and won't respect you, face it, their young, don't have any worrys in life about getting a job, it will hit them when they leave.
Not to mention all the back door ways into college now I find the leaving cert as a whole pointless.

dubrov

It seems strange that three different sets of parents complained independently to the principal.
If the story is accurately presented, I suspect the children concocted a story together and fed it to the parents.

The "I don't get it" comments are a classic ploy to mess in the class.

I remember the best teachers that I had used to use the threat of punishment more than actually dishing the punishment. Individuals would be singled out as well and made look foolish when they messed.
It is so much easier to disrupt in a crowd ad more fun as well.

I'm not sure if I agree with the previous poster who said you should let the students drop to ordinary if they want to.
I can remember plenty of people dropping down to ordinary maths for the leaving cert but none going the other way.
It is still worth trying but you can only push it so much,

irishgrover

Just my 2cents, and I'm not saying I'm right, it's just my opinion...
If any one of my 4 children received "punishment" home from school I which involved a meaningless repetitive time wasting activity (such as writing lines etc), I would be very predisposed to not facilitating it's completion, especially at 2nd level.
I would have no problem with a teacher instructing them to do extra or additional math work as punishment. I'd fully support a "punishment" of them writing a 2 page essay on the importance of Maths, or doing research and identifying the 3rd level courses that require maths, or calculating the difference between a C in pass maths or a C in honours maths etc etc. To me all of the above would indicate annoyance, punishment and educational legitimacy.
However being told to write lines or other repetitious nonsense, would to me set an alarm bell ringing that there was a teacher too lazy to to do anything intelligent or meaningful.
Please accept that I am not trying to, or wish to criticise you directly or indirectly. Just want to give you my opinion.
Best of luck

2011abc

dubrov wrote: »

It seems strange that three different sets of parents complained independently to the principal.
If the story is accurately presented, I suspect the children concocted a story together and fed it to the parents.

Hit nail on head !

acequion

You know what Peter,I think you were very brave and a tad naive posting that situation on here. While you might have got a few constructive responses by those who do the real job in the real world,you also drew a fair share of know it alls who know nothing on you as well.

It's gas the way non teachers think they know the job better than the actual teachers!

Peter Flynt

acequion wrote: »

You know what Peter,I think you were very brave and a tad naive posting that situation on here. While you might have got a few constructive responses by those who do the real job in the real world,you also drew a fair share of know it alls who know nothing on you as well.

It's gas the way non teachers think they know the job better than the actual teachers!

I've no problem posting this experience.

What interests me is as follows: I'm installing discipline on students who lack the discipline that highly motivated students have.

The reason why they lack discipline is primarily because of poor parenting.

The only problems I've ever had with parents are from parents who are exactly like their kids. . .

A concocted story - These kids ran to their year head and then their Parents ran to the Principal.

But in the end. . . There they were today - working. . . At a higher level than their parents expectations.

masonchat

2011abc wrote: »

Hit nail on head !

They got some lines not accused of murder, would 3 kids really go to the bother to make up a story in order to get out of lines and would they be that miffed about getting lines if they had failed to do homework ?

I agree something doesnt quite add up but i am inclined to come to a different conclusion

GarIT

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Their interruption of the teacher (i.e. me) is commonplace in their classes and they do not realise that this is serious indiscipline that prevents learning from occurring. This is WHY they are weak - It is not because they lack ability.

If a teacher is being asked to explain something again/more clearly they should do so and then evaluate what went wrong the first time. Asking questions is not a lack of discipline and a teacher that complains about being asked to explain something more clearly isn't a good teacher at all.

A teacher not stopping to explain things when asked prevents learning from occurring.

Peter Flynt

Incidentally parents phoning principals is a very common occurrence.

Most teachers do not hear of these conversations as they are invariably not reported to them.

But some parents now feel they have some sort of ownership of what goes on in the classroom.

evolving_doors

I think the nub of the issue is that some of the students didn't even bother to try the question so presented absolutely nothing in class.

I'm not so sure about punishing the whole class for it though!!

In saying that , if I went home whinging about being given a pointless punishment exercise for something I neglected to do, then I'd be given short shrift told to cop myself on and do the punishment. Think of it as a life lesson and move on.. are my parents going to write a note for me if my future boss gives me an unfair bollocking at work? Life ain't fair..

Peter Flynt

GarIT wrote: »

If a teacher is being asked to explain something again/more clearly they should do so and then evaluate what went wrong the first time. Asking questions is not a lack of discipline and a teacher that complains about being asked to explain something more clearly isn't a good teacher at all.

A teacher not stopping to explain things when asked prevents learning from occurring.

Shouting out without permission "I don't get that" . . . That's not asking a question.

That's serious indiscipline.

They know the procedure now - Hands up. Question is asked and everyone listens to the answer. Resume work.

2011abc

masonchat wrote: »

would 3 kids really go to the bother to make up a story in order to get out of lines and would they be that miffed about getting lines if they had failed to do homework ?

Let me guess,youre not a teacher?

Peter Flynt

Armelodie wrote: »

I think the nub of the issue is that some of the students didn't even bother to try the question so presented absolutely nothing in class.

I'm not so sure about punishing the whole class for it though!!

In saying that , if I went home whinging about being given a pointless punishment exercise for something I neglected to do, then I'd be given short shrift told to cop myself on and do the punishment. Think of it as a life lesson and move on.. are my parents going to write a note for me if my future boss gives me an unfair bollocking at work? Life ain't fair..

The WHOLE class was not punished.

Those who did not even attempt their homework were asked to carry out punishment work.

One student returned the next day with this:

"My Ma said she's not signing your note as you signed it in the conduct area of the journal and and she doesn't believe it warrants that"

GarIT

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Shouting out without permission "I don't get that" . . . That's not asking a question.

That's serious indiscipline.

They know the procedure now - Hands up. Question is asked and everyone listens to the answer. Resume work.

You are right there. I didn't realise it was out of turn.

Peter Flynt

masonchat wrote: »

I am beginning to get a very dim view of some teachers attitudes from some of the replies , there is a very arrogant condescending tone .

No arrogance. No condescension.

The teacher has a job to do.

This group would gladly sit around doing nothing if allowed to . . . and they'd be considered a great teacher by most in the class.

milosh

If you ignore the situation that Peter outlined and deal with the main point i.e. increased parental contact with Principals, then there is no doubt that there is. Parents feel they have the right to contact management about the smallest of problems and as stakeholders in their children's education and their primary educators, they do.

However some parents are just far too protective of their children and it is a great source of amusement to us some of the phone calls the school receives.

Punishment is part of learning and not doing homework is without doubt a discipline issue. I would not have handled Peter's situation the way he did but that is fairly irrelevant. You cannot leave non-presented homework go.

The parents should have taken the interest in their children's homework the previous evening. If their child genuinely could not make an effort at the work they should have written a note to the teacher explaining this. Most teachers (and I am sure Peter is no different) appreciate this kind of feedback from parents.

masonchat

I was no scholar, more than capable when i wanted to be, its a shame i never got the importance of the results or how short school life is compared to the rest of your life , a common dilemma id imagine.

It is amazing though how the same class of students can react in polar opposites for 2 different teachers.

I think i only did the homework for the teachers that i knew would check it.

From a students pov i would think , a warning for causing disruption followed by detention for further incidents would deter me the best.

On the homework front would you be better off putting the onus on the students then the parents, no homework done today , bring it in tomorrow with tonights homework , if not note home , if still no homework request a meeting with the parents ?

If you pizz off the parents instead of the students they might start to ensure the work is done, bringing horses to water is the easy bit getting them to drink isnt so easy though, some kids just wont give a squiddley no matter what :- )

Terri26

Punishment homework is not meant to benefit the student. It's a punishment. Why give the teacher more work to check/correct when their time was already wasted dealing with the lack of homework in the first place?
But well done to th parents who tried/try to undermine the teacher's authority - like our job isn't difficult enough.

byhookorbycrook

masonchat wrote: »

I was no scholar, more that capable when i wanted to be, its a shame i never got the importance of the results or how short school life is compared to the rest of your life , a common dilemma id imagine.

It is amazing though how the same class of students can react in polar opposites for 2 different teachers.

I think i only did the homework for the teachers that i knew would check it.

From a students pov i would think , a warning for causing disruption followed by detention for further incidents would deter me the best.

On the homework front would you be better off putting the onus on the students then the parents, no homework done today , bring it in tomorrow with tonights homework , if not note home , if still no homework request a meeting with the parents ?

If you pizz of the parents instead of the students they might start to ensure the work is done, bringing horses to water is the easy bit getting them to drink isnt so easy though, some kids just wont give a squiddley no matter what :- )

Unfortunately there are some parents who a)won't enforce the homework and b) won't attend any meeting.

What then?

Peter Flynt

Terri26 wrote: »

Punishment homework is not meant to benefit the student. It's a punishment. Why give the teacher more work to check/correct when their time was already wasted dealing with the lack of homework in the first place?
But well done to th parents who tried/try to undermine the teacher's authority - like our job isn't difficult enough.

Do these kids now have a "get out of homework free" card?

To be played to the parents the next time I inspect their copies.

Because that's what some of the parents have given them.

masonchat

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Unfortunately there are some parents who a)won't enforce the homework and b) won't attend any meeting.

What then?

If they wont do homework and parents dont give a hoot as is often the case probably, then they wont do punishment work either, at that stage in my day expulsion for a set time would have been expected , i mean you cant shoot them.

I think what some of us x hell raisers/saints are saying is , if you are going to give written punishment , isnt it better for it to be constructive punishment, it is still extra work its not like they will enjoy it just because it is constructive

Czarcasm

Peter it sounds to me like the core issue among your students with regard to math isn't indiscipline, but a lack of motivation, caused by a lack of respect for you as their teacher.

I think first off anyway that it's commendable that you recognise your students potential ability, but IMO, respectfully, you're putting the horse before the cart in terms of motivation and discipline. You're focussed perhaps too much on the discipline aspect, and not enough on the motivation. Motivating your students is the key to having them respect you, and then discipline will naturally follow from that.

It's early enough in the year yet for you to turn this around. Without knowing the students involved or their parents, I can only surmise that you're going to have to adopt a different disciplinary strategy, and I would discuss this with the Principal and the other teachers in the school as to how you might devise a strategy to motivate the students moreso than punish them.

You're unlikely to receive parental support, which is unfortunate, but if you can motivate the students and work with them, get them interested in learning and wanting to learn, if you can find a way to relate to the students the importance of applying themselves now, and emphasise that it is in their own best interests to do so, perhaps you won't face the wrath of parents who value their child's 'social development' above their academic achievements (I'm being kind, I'm sure you understand what I mean).

evolving_doors

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byhookorbycrook

masonchat wrote: »

If they wont do homework and parents dont give a hoot as is often the case probably, then they wont do punishment work either, at that stage in my day expulsion for a set time would have been expected , i mean you cant shoot them.

I think what some of us x hell raisers/saints are saying is , if you are going to give written punishment , isnt it better for it to be constructive punishment, it is still extra work its not like they will enjoy it just because it is constructive

Almost impossible to expel a child. No matter what they do/don't do.

barney 20v

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Incidentally parents phoning principals is a very common occurrence.

Most teachers do not hear of these conversations as they are invariably not reported to them.

But some parents now feel they have some sort of ownership of what goes on in the classroom.

Do they not though?
You are employed to educate their children , so they have a vested interest in the performance and manner of the teacher in question .
My view is that the children are in fact the only important consideration in this situation
The view that parents should NOT take ownership of what goes on/ goes wrong in the classroom is ridiculous in my humble opinion.....

RealJohn

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Almost impossible to expel a child. No matter what they do/don't do.

I think they mean expulsion from the class for a few days, not permanent expulsion from the school.

byhookorbycrook

RealJohn wrote: »

I think they mean expulsion from the class for a few days, not permanent expulsion from the school.

Some students would see it as a badge of honour/ nice few days off.

endakenny

RealJohn wrote: »

I think they mean expulsion from the class for a few days, not permanent expulsion from the school.

If it's not permanent then it's suspension, not expulsion.

endakenny

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Some students would see it as a badge of honour/ nice few days off.

Then it's up to their parents to make them see the error of their ways.

RealJohn

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Some students would see it as a badge of honour/ nice few days off.

They would but at least the other students see that disruptive behaviour will result in them being deprived of their audience and those who aren't disruptive get a quieter few days.

Regardless, all I was doing was trying to clarify something that seemed to have been misinterpreted.