To Die or Ram short putts?

Ben1977

How do you approach those short putts which have a bit of break?

I'm talking about the 2 footer where you know at dead weight you have to aim outside the hole. During my last round I was left with 5 of these types of putts and missed all but one. I find it very difficult to make a small enough swing when aiming outside the hole. Generally I hit it on line but just power it through the break.

So the two options I have are, aim inside the hole with an aggressive stroke or hit it out of the toe and let it drop in dead weight. Thinking of the 5 putts from the last round I got the 2 methods mixed up. eg picked my aim point outside the hole and just powered it through it or I did the opposite, took dead aim and just tapped the putt and it falls away on the low side.

So what method do you use? Did you use the 2 methods? Have you changed from one method to another and seen an improvement?

ForeRight

Back of the hole at pace for me. If I put a bad stroke on it so be it. I just accept the consequences.

SuprSi

I hate these putts, and our practice green doesn't really have a decent slope to try them out on. On Saturday I had a few 2 - 3 footers and in general I tried hitting them harder than normal, which seemed to work though tbf none had a big-ish break on them.

If I had a downhill left to right 3 footer with a break, I'd find it very hard to take the break out and hit it hard as it could go 10 feet past!!

Rikand

ForeRight wrote: »

Back of the hole at pace for me. If I put a bad stroke on it so be it. I just accept the consequences.

I used to die them, but I have since switched to this. Has worked very well for me, except for on Saturday and Sunday, but it was me that was the problem and not the putts

mike12

Think the best method is keep it inside the hole and use what ever pace you need to do that, even if you hit it with too much pace or too little pace it should still go in.

spacecoyote

mike12 wrote: »

Think the best method is keep it inside the hole and use what ever pace you need to do that, even if you hit it with too much pace or too little pace it should still go in.

I would go with similar enough to this. Unless it's the side of a hill if I'm 2ft & in I'm hitting it inside the hole. Not blasting it, just enough pace to keep it inside

BigChap1759

I've found these so much easier since I started using a line on my ball - line the lien on the ball with the aim line on the putter and you know you are starting the ball on the right line

BigChap1759

mike12 wrote: »

Think the best method is keep it inside the hole and use what ever pace you need to do that, even if you hit it with too much pace or too little pace it should still go in.

If you need to hit it with more pace to keep it inside the hole surely it will miss if you use too little pace??

mike12

BigChap1759 wrote: »

If you need to hit it with more pace to keep it inside the hole surely it will miss if you use too little pace??

If you are aiming just inside the hole on one side it has to be a lot of break or way under hit not to catch the other lip from 2 foot. once you start giving away the hole from that distance you are in trouble.

Redzah

Ben1977 wrote: »

How do you approach those short putts which have a bit of break?

I'm talking about the 2 footer where you know at dead weight you have to aim outside the hole. During my last round I was left with 5 of these types of putts and missed all but one. I find it very difficult to make a small enough swing when aiming outside the hole. Generally I hit it on line but just power it through the break.

So the two options I have are, aim inside the hole with an aggressive stroke or hit it out of the toe and let it drop in dead weight. Thinking of the 5 putts from the last round I got the 2 methods mixed up. eg picked my aim point outside the hole and just powered it through it or I did the opposite, took dead aim and just tapped the putt and it falls away on the low side.

So what mean do you use? Did you use the 2 methods? Have you changed from one method to another and seen an improvement?

There is not just 2 approaches. I think the 3rd approach of just putting it at a regular pace where it would go circa 1ft past is best.

I think both of the 2 approaches you have named above are fundamentally flawed for the average amateur golfer.

The agressive approach operates on the basis that the amateur golfer can consistently put a good stroke on the putt and hit the ball on the intended line. This approach narrows the hole considerably as the pace means it is less likely to drop if it catches an edge of the hole. I think this approach is fine for a professional golfer who can consistently stroke the ball on line but different for the average amateur.

The approach of letting the ball die into the hole widens the hole but leaves the putt very susceptable to both break/slope and imperfections on the green.

IMO, to marry the best of these 2 approaches then hit the putt at a pace in between both of the above as it has the following benefits;

1. It has a much increased chance of dropping if it catches the edge of the hole when compared to the agressive approach.

2. It is less susceptable to the break and imperfections of the green than with the approach of dying the putts in.

Dbu

I find a quick prayer helps as well, just remember that a 2 foot putt counts exactly the same as a 300yard bomber down the fairway.lol

newport2

Definitely firm and taking the break out inside 2 feet (with a few exceptions, such as downhill ones)

Will occasionally knock one past the hole more than wanted, but I've missed far more short putts "dribbling" them up to the hole than I have firm ones and putts back combined. Even if I hole short dead weight putts, I still find them a bit more tentative leading to nerves creeping in. Much easier to build confidence from knocking them in firmly. And I've found this holds up much better under pressure than trying to get each one to just the right pace. It's essentially the same stroke and line for all putts that length and inside (with a few exceptions)

Ben1977

So by the sounds of it most try and take the break out of the putt and aim inside the cup. Yes if you miss it will end up probably 2 foot away again, but at least it is a positive putt.

charlieIRL

Ben1977 wrote: »

So by the sounds of it most try and take the break out of the putt and aim inside the cup. Yes if you miss it will end up probably 2 foot away again, but at least it is a positive putt.

Not that i'm a great one to be talking about putting :rolleyes: but your very last comment there should be for every putt in my opinion "be positive"

newport2

charlieIRL wrote: »

Not that i'm a great one to be talking about putting :rolleyes: but your very last comment there should be for every putt in my opinion "be positive"

+1

Never putt not to 3-putt. (at least inside 10 feet!)

newport2

Ben1977 wrote: »

So by the sounds of it most try and take the break out of the putt and aim inside the cup. Yes if you miss it will end up probably 2 foot away again, but at least it is a positive putt.

I remember listening to something (I think it was Karl Morris) about putting and it really clicked with me and helped sort out my short putts, which I occasionally had problems with. His gist was this:

When you're having problems with short putts, your kind of dreading going over to take one. But he made the point that it's not the short putts you fear, it's the way you feel when you miss one that you fear. And the more you miss, the more this compounds. He had a routine that when you stepped onto the green, you would just set your mind to accepting that the worst thing that can happen is missing a putt, big deal, go through a quick breathing routine and relax. Then roll it in....

This really hit home with me, especially because what always drove (drives) me mad (and most golfers I expect) is not hitting a bad shot, but wasting a shot. A fluffed chip, a sh*%k, a topped shot are all far more infuriating than making reasonably good contact but just not a great shot. And I think the reason for this is how I feel after fluffing a chip (awful) as opposed to how I feel hitting a chip and just misjudging it and going long (I can just shrug it off as a bad shot). Getting my head around this made me realise that I didn't fear short putts at all and to take a much more positive approach to them.

Redzah

Ben1977 wrote: »

How do you approach those short putts which have a bit of break?

I'm talking about the 2 footer where you know at dead weight you have to aim outside the hole. During my last round I was left with 5 of these types of putts and missed all but one. I find it very difficult to make a small enough swing when aiming outside the hole. Generally I hit it on line but just power it through the break.

So the two options I have are, aim inside the hole with an aggressive stroke or hit it out of the toe and let it drop in dead weight. Thinking of the 5 putts from the last round I got the 2 methods mixed up. eg picked my aim point outside the hole and just powered it through it or I did the opposite, took dead aim and just tapped the putt and it falls away on the low side.

So what method do you use? Did you use the 2 methods? Have you changed from one method to another and seen an improvement?

Re-reading this post leads me to believe that the problem has nothing to do with the method adopted (aggressive vs dieing), it has to do with your touch.

As you noted in your opening post, you are allowing for break and smacking the putts through the break. This is an issue with your touch and feel for the greens more than adopting a particular method.

Based on the advice given, you will now most likely go off and smack your putts even more which will result in many 3 putts and provide no solution.

You would be much better off just going to a putting green and practicing. From practice you will get a feel for a putt of this length which appears to be your problem i.e. you can't currently judge the speed/line ratio required to hole these putts. I don't think ramming them at the hole as a solution is the answer.

Russman

Redzah wrote: »

Re-reading this post leads me to believe that the problem has nothing to do with the method adopted (aggressive vs dieing), it has to do with your touch.

As you noted in your opening post, you are allowing for break and smacking the putts through the break. This is an issue with your touch and feel for the greens more than adopting a particular method.

Based on the advice given, you will now most likely go off and smack your putts even more which will result in many 3 putts and provide no solution.

You would be much better off just going to a putting green and practicing. From practice you will get a feel for a putt of this length which appears to be your problem i.e. you can't currently judge the speed/line ratio required to hole these putts. I don't think ramming them at the hole as a solution is the answer.

This ^^^^ exactly.

It's not a case of either/or with regard to a "method". Some putts need to be rolled gently, some lend themselves to a more aggressive stroke. You need to get a feel for the pace necessary for a given putt, and the only way is holing lots and lots of them on the putting green to get you that inbuilt feel for the putter. You can't go out thinking you're going to hammer all your short ones or you're going to dribble them all, it doesn't work like that, take each putt on its merits in terms of slope, situation, how you're feeling etc.

spacecoyote

One thing a pro said to me was that back in the day when Monty was dominating the European tour he used to hit 100 1-foot putts before his round so the last memory he had walking on to the course was sinking 100 consecutive putts.

I don't quite go that far, but probably try to take about 30 2 foot putts from different spots around a hole before I play whenever I can & have found its given me a lot more confidence on the course.

And the thing is that once you are feeling confident of making a short one you end up being much more positive with your longer putts and make more of them as there is less fear of running past a hole.

Tones69

Depends on uphill or downhill. Uphill or flat always in with pace. Downhill on fast green ud have to die it in or you could be lookin at 3 or 4 putt

slave1

On the putting green they get rammed every time, on the course...

dan_ep82

Usually back of the hole.

On short putts I look at the hole ( and longer ones lately) and its worked out really well. I don't adjust the stroke based on the putter path

stockdam

Improve your putting is the answer.

I've seen both methods but generally a flexible approach is best. If the slope etc merits it then a firm putt taking out the break is probably best. Just make sure that you don't over-borrow or hit it too hard that the ball jumps over the hole. If you miss using the firm method then your putting stroke needs to improve and therefore you would probably also miss with a "lag" type putt.

If you have a downhill breaking putt or one that is lightning fast then you are probably better lagging it and allowing for the break.

I'd suggest that Pros hit the ball much harder but they can get away with it as their stroke is very good. When it does go wrong then they 3 or 4 putt from close range.

In matchplay, if you need two putts for the hole then take them and don't try to bang the putt in.

lorenzo87

It depends on the putt, there are some putts, even 3-4 foot, that can be deadly. If it is a down hill putt, you miss and you have a 10 footer back? If I have a 3-4 foot putt, I visualise it going 3-4 foot past and hit it at that pace I have in my head. Then if the stroke is correct, you have the same distance coming back if you miss. The worst thing you can do is be tentative with a putt, you have to be positive.. Don't visualise a line TO the hole, visualise the ball rolling through the hole.

Ben1977

Not really a problem with putting, just had one of those days. I will always use these methods I find they both have there advantages.
My touch is good but I got the 2 methods mix up and in the end that was the reason for the miss. Interested to know if people have 2 thoughts/methods or just 1? Does 1 method cover all your short putts?etc

lorenzo87

Ben1977 wrote: »

Not really a problem with putting, just had one of those days. I will always use these methods I find they both have there advantages.
My touch is good but I got the 2 methods mix up and in the end that was the reason for the miss. Interested to know if people have 2 thoughts/methods or just 1? Does 1 method cover all your short putts?etc

Stick to one method and don't change it when you are playing a round.
If you do, you confuse yourself and you miss the putt. Once you stand up to that putt you should be thinking " I have this".. Be positive. You think negative and it reflects on the putt. The game of golf is as much about mental strength as it is ability.

Loire

Feet together and ram it in for me. For longer down hillers I use the toe of the putter and put as normal...finding hitting off the toe kills the ball nicely.

lorenzo87

Loire wrote: »

Feet together and ram it in for me. For longer down hillers I use the toe of the putter and put as normal...finding hitting off the toe kills the ball nicely.

Yip, that is a lovely simple trick actually, off the toe of the putter. Less force on the ball when it's not hit centrally..

GreeBo

firm unless its downhill, then i die it in.
no worth the risk of hitting it 6 foot past imo

cairny

Nice drill for short putts is to lay flagstick on green in front of hole and putt from 3'. To make it you have to putt with authority or ball will move off line.

GreeBo

or lie a pencil in front of hole, two pitchmark repairers to hold it down

ShivasIrons

The faster the ball is travelling the smaller the effective size of the hole. For a ball dying at the hole the hole is 4.25 inches effectively, for a ball that is moving much faster the effective size of the hole can be 0.5 inch or even less.

Hitting putts firmly, makes the target smaller. I don't think this is a good idea. For a ball dying at the hole there is potential for ball wobble over the last few inches of roll, so a slight bit more pace then the ball dying at the hole is one that will work the best, at a pace with the ball going 6 inches past the hole the effective size is around 3.5 inches. This a good pace to hit any putt.

Ask yourself a question, how hard would you hit a 6 inch putt? I doubt you'll hit it a pace that would hit it 3 feet past the hole. Why would you hit a 3 foot putt with a pace that would hit it 3 feet by then?

Rikand

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Ask yourself a question, how hard would you hit a 6 inch putt? I doubt you'll hit it a pace that would hit it 3 feet past the hole. Why would you hit a 3 foot putt with a pace that would hit it 3 feet by then?

Relativity. You dont the 6inch putt so it goes 3 feet past. You hit it so it goes 6 inches past

6 inch - 6 inch
3 feet - 3 feet

ShivasIrons

Rikand wrote: »

Relativity. You dont the 6inch putt so it goes 3 feet past. You hit it so it goes 6 inches past

6 inch - 6 inch
3 feet - 3 feet

So 20 feet - 20 feet by?

Rikand

ShivasIrons wrote: »

So 20 feet - 20 feet by?

All or nothing haha.

Fair enough

Russman

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Ask yourself a question, how hard would you hit a 6 inch putt? I doubt you'll hit it a pace that would hit it 3 feet past the hole. Why would you hit a 3 foot putt with a pace that would hit it 3 feet by then?

2 things with this:

1) I'd say you'd be surprised at how far past the hole a 6 inch putt hit at normal tapping in pace would roll if the hole didn't get in the way, wouldn't be far off 3 feet I'd imagine.

2) why even think like that over putts ? Surely no one thinks along the lines of "I'll hit this with enough pace to get it 6 inches past the hole" or "I'll hit this with enough pace to get it 3 feet past the hole" ?? Would you not be thinking simply "I'm going to knock this into the hole" ?

newport2

Russman wrote: »

2 things with this:

1) I'd say you'd be surprised at how far past the hole a 6 inch putt hit at normal tapping in pace would roll if the hole didn't get in the way, wouldn't be far off 3 feet I'd imagine.

2) why even think like that over putts ? Surely no one thinks along the lines of "I'll hit this with enough pace to get it 6 inches past the hole" or "I'll hit this with enough pace to get it 3 feet past the hole" ?? Would you not be thinking simply "I'm going to knock this into the hole" ?

For me, to eliminate the possibility of leaving it short or drifting off line at the last second before it's about to drop. I'll admit I don't think in terms of "2 1/2 feet past" - I'd never want to hit it that pace, but I will focus on getting it past the hole as opposed to just as far as the hole. I want it to reach the hole at a steady pace, so the speed of the greens is also a big factor. I guess there's no way to putt correctly, whatever works for each golfer is the way they should be doing it.

newport2

Rikand wrote: »

Relativity. You dont the 6inch putt so it goes 3 feet past. You hit it so it goes 6 inches past

6 inch - 6 inch
3 feet - 3 feet

Depends on the speed of the greens. A putt on slow greens has to pass the hole much faster that a putt on quick greens to go the same distance past. It's more about the pace you want the ball to be at when it reaches the hole as opposed to how far past you want it to go.

Russman

newport2 wrote: »

For me, to eliminate the possibility of leaving it short or drifting off line at the last second before it's about to drop. I'll admit I don't think in terms of "2 1/2 feet past", but I will focus on getting it past the hole as opposed to just as far as the hole. The speed of the greens is also a big factor. I guess there's no way to putt correctly, whatever works for each golfer is the way they should be doing it.

Ohh absolutely, you could have 10 great putters and 10 different methods.

I just can't get my head round consciously thinking of stuff other than getting the ball into the hole from short distance tbh.

newport2

Russman wrote: »

Ohh absolutely, you could have 10 great putters and 10 different methods.

I just can't get my head round consciously thinking of stuff other than getting the ball into the hole from short distance tbh.

I get what you're saying. You focus on the hole, I focus just past the hole. I don't think about how hard to hit any putt really, I just make my target a little further away.

I did my stats a while ago and discovered I was leaving almost 30% of putts short, I couldn't believe it. The pros stats are @ 5%. After looking up ways to try and improve this I found something by Jack Nichlaus who said when this happened to him he would focus on a point past the hole and putt with that as the target. Greg Norman had something similar, saying there's 4 ways to miss a putt, so make sure you eliminate one of them.

http://www.shark.com/sharkwatch/instruction/lesson50.php

Anyway, I tried their advice and now am hovering about 10% left short. But more importantly I have had no problems with short putts, which is something I used to have from time to time.

Webbs

For those putts that arent fast downhill breaking putts I am always looking to 'pour' the ball into the hole.

I imagine a pace that will drop the ball to the back of the cup, but not hitting back edge of the cup (so not a 'ramming' it in).

I find that on the 2-3 foot putts this is ideal pace to be able to hit inside the cup and if god forbid I miss then am not going to have a 5 footer back.

As everyone has said though this is all about practice on the putting green before you go out, hit maybe 10 -20 of this distance to get that correct pace into your head before playing.

PARlance

I hate these threads... I hate anything that makes me think about putting
Such bad memories about the fear of missing or being conscious about my stroke (mid putt) that left me with a stroke that was full of the DT's.

I've practiced an awful lot this year and one day I got bored and started messing around with short putts.
Deliberately trying to hit as bad a stroke as possible whilst still holing it. I've continued to do that (sporadically) since then when practicing.... Holing a few from the heel, a few from the toe, standing on one leg...Whatever
It mightn't be everyone's cup of tea but for me it certainly has helped me, if I'm waiting to hit my 2-3 footer, all I'm saying to myself is that "I am a good putter, I can hole this even if I hit a bad putt"

Practice and a bit of delusion is all that's required and after the delusion works it can turn into genuine confidence (or a state where fear doesn't come into it)

newport2

PARlance wrote: »

Practice and a bit of delusion is all that's required and after the delusion works it can turn into genuine confidence (or a state where fear doesn't come into it)

+1

Remember a few years ago Vijay Singh - bad putter - started telling everyone he was the best putter in the world and he almost convinced himself. He started putting brilliantly, one of which was a 25 footer to defeat Sergio on final hole.

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/columns/story?id=3561269

You just need to convince yourself

Redzah

Ben1977 wrote: »

Not really a problem with putting, just had one of those days. I will always use these methods I find they both have there advantages.
My touch is good but I got the 2 methods mix up and in the end that was the reason for the miss. Interested to know if people have 2 thoughts/methods or just 1? Does 1 method cover all your short putts?etc

Mixing the 2 methods up = No touch/feel for the greens on the day in question.

Now this is possibly a once off but lets not kid ourselves here because there is no way somebody with a good touch can aim outside the hole, put a good stroke on the ball and ram it through the break from 2 feet. That is all down to touch.

Somebody with good touch can put a bad stroke on the ball and push or pull puts from this range but that is an entirely different problem. They will not consistently over the course of the round get confused regard the line/break ratio required to sink a put of this length.

GreeBo

Redzah wrote: »

Mixing the 2 methods up = No touch/feel for the greens on the day in question.

I disagree completely, you dont need feel or touch on a short putt compared to a long putt.

Hitting it firmly through the break is caused by a combination of fear and indecisiveness.
Fear of missing and leaving a long putt back results in people trying to have a "good" miss to guarantee the next one.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

I disagree completely, you dont need feel or touch on a short putt compared to a long putt.

Hitting it firmly through the break is caused by a combination of fear and indecisiveness.
Fear of missing and leaving a long putt back results in people trying to have a "good" miss to guarantee the next one.

So you agree that it has nothing to do with mixing two methods up then?

And you also agree that it is more likely stroke related as opposed to mixing two methods up?

Also, the OP said he missed some by aiming outside the hole smacking them through the break, this does not equate to fear of missing and leaving a long putt back!

Ben1977

Redzah wrote: »

Mixing the 2 methods up = No touch/feel for the greens on the day in question.

Now this is possibly a once off but lets not kid ourselves here because there is no way somebody with a good touch can aim outside the hole, put a good stroke on the ball and ram it through the break from 2 feet. That is all down to touch.

Somebody with good touch can put a bad stroke on the ball and push or pull puts from this range but that is an entirely different problem. They will not consistently over the course of the round get confused regard the line/break ratio required to sink a put of this length.

No sorry you are wrong. Mixing up the methods is down to me not deciding what way I'm going to hit the putt before I walk in to it. The one I did hole was a down hill putt off less than 2 feet, it broke about 9 inches. I stood behind it said to myself pick a spot outside of the hole and hit the putt out of the toe to give it a dead hit. Straight in the middle.

Redzah

Ben1977 wrote: »

No sorry you are wrong. Mixing up the methods is down to me not deciding what way I'm going to hit the putt before I walk in to it. The one I did hole was a down hill putt off less than 2 feet, it broke about 9 inches. I stood behind it said to myself pick a spot outside of the hole and hit the putt out of the toe to give it a dead hit. Straight in the middle.

Ok, keep fooling yourself but if you have to consciously think about the pace you are hitting a 2 foot putt then you have no touch in my opinion. In my opinion, the requirement for what pace to hit a 2 foot putt sits in the sub-conscious area of an individual who has the touch/feel of the greens.

Russman

There are no "methods", you hit each putt at the best pace, for you, that holes any given putt. Anything more than that is way overthinking it IMHO.

Ben1977

Redzah wrote: »

Ok, keep fooling yourself but if you have to consciously think about the pace you are hitting a 2 foot putt then you have no touch in my opinion. In my opinion, the requirement for what pace to hit a 2 foot putt sits in the sub-conscious area of an individual who has the touch/feel of the greens.

Wrong again, I never talked about pace.

Russman

Redzah wrote: »

Ok, keep fooling yourself but if you have to consciously think about the pace you are hitting a 2 foot putt then you have no touch in my opinion. In my opinion, the requirement for what pace to hit a 2 foot putt sits in the sub-conscious area of an individual who has the touch/feel of the greens.

This, times 10.
Every putt is slightly different, and will need to be hit slightly differently, but we can't consciously decide on pace A for this putt and pace B for the next, it's not like there's settings on our strokes. I might see a putt as being left edge, someone else might see it as being outside left, we can both be right because we see putts based on our own strokes and the pace we naturally hit putts. Certainly I'd never think a putt is left edge if I hit it at x pace, that extra bit is just complicating things IMO.

I suppose it's a bit like the old question, is golf an art or a science ? different people will see it differently.