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To Die or Ram short putts?

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 758 ✭✭✭ShivasIrons


    The faster the ball is travelling the smaller the effective size of the hole. For a ball dying at the hole the hole is 4.25 inches effectively, for a ball that is moving much faster the effective size of the hole can be 0.5 inch or even less.

    Hitting putts firmly, makes the target smaller. I don't think this is a good idea. For a ball dying at the hole there is potential for ball wobble over the last few inches of roll, so a slight bit more pace then the ball dying at the hole is one that will work the best, at a pace with the ball going 6 inches past the hole the effective size is around 3.5 inches. This a good pace to hit any putt.

    Ask yourself a question, how hard would you hit a 6 inch putt? I doubt you'll hit it a pace that would hit it 3 feet past the hole. Why would you hit a 3 foot putt with a pace that would hit it 3 feet by then?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,664 ✭✭✭✭Rikand



    Ask yourself a question, how hard would you hit a 6 inch putt? I doubt you'll hit it a pace that would hit it 3 feet past the hole. Why would you hit a 3 foot putt with a pace that would hit it 3 feet by then?

    Relativity. You dont the 6inch putt so it goes 3 feet past. You hit it so it goes 6 inches past :)

    6 inch - 6 inch
    3 feet - 3 feet


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 758 ✭✭✭ShivasIrons


    Rikand wrote: »
    Relativity. You dont the 6inch putt so it goes 3 feet past. You hit it so it goes 6 inches past :)

    6 inch - 6 inch
    3 feet - 3 feet

    So 20 feet - 20 feet by?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,664 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    So 20 feet - 20 feet by?

    All or nothing haha.

    Fair enough ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    Ask yourself a question, how hard would you hit a 6 inch putt? I doubt you'll hit it a pace that would hit it 3 feet past the hole. Why would you hit a 3 foot putt with a pace that would hit it 3 feet by then?

    2 things with this:

    1) I'd say you'd be surprised at how far past the hole a 6 inch putt hit at normal tapping in pace would roll if the hole didn't get in the way, wouldn't be far off 3 feet I'd imagine.

    2) why even think like that over putts ? Surely no one thinks along the lines of "I'll hit this with enough pace to get it 6 inches past the hole" or "I'll hit this with enough pace to get it 3 feet past the hole" ?? Would you not be thinking simply "I'm going to knock this into the hole" ?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭newport2


    Russman wrote: »
    2 things with this:

    1) I'd say you'd be surprised at how far past the hole a 6 inch putt hit at normal tapping in pace would roll if the hole didn't get in the way, wouldn't be far off 3 feet I'd imagine.

    2) why even think like that over putts ? Surely no one thinks along the lines of "I'll hit this with enough pace to get it 6 inches past the hole" or "I'll hit this with enough pace to get it 3 feet past the hole" ?? Would you not be thinking simply "I'm going to knock this into the hole" ?

    For me, to eliminate the possibility of leaving it short or drifting off line at the last second before it's about to drop. I'll admit I don't think in terms of "2 1/2 feet past" - I'd never want to hit it that pace, but I will focus on getting it past the hole as opposed to just as far as the hole. I want it to reach the hole at a steady pace, so the speed of the greens is also a big factor. I guess there's no way to putt correctly, whatever works for each golfer is the way they should be doing it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭newport2


    Rikand wrote: »
    Relativity. You dont the 6inch putt so it goes 3 feet past. You hit it so it goes 6 inches past :)

    6 inch - 6 inch
    3 feet - 3 feet

    Depends on the speed of the greens. A putt on slow greens has to pass the hole much faster that a putt on quick greens to go the same distance past. It's more about the pace you want the ball to be at when it reaches the hole as opposed to how far past you want it to go.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    newport2 wrote: »
    For me, to eliminate the possibility of leaving it short or drifting off line at the last second before it's about to drop. I'll admit I don't think in terms of "2 1/2 feet past", but I will focus on getting it past the hole as opposed to just as far as the hole. The speed of the greens is also a big factor. I guess there's no way to putt correctly, whatever works for each golfer is the way they should be doing it.

    Ohh absolutely, you could have 10 great putters and 10 different methods.

    I just can't get my head round consciously thinking of stuff other than getting the ball into the hole from short distance tbh.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭newport2


    Russman wrote: »
    Ohh absolutely, you could have 10 great putters and 10 different methods.

    I just can't get my head round consciously thinking of stuff other than getting the ball into the hole from short distance tbh.

    I get what you're saying. You focus on the hole, I focus just past the hole. I don't think about how hard to hit any putt really, I just make my target a little further away.

    I did my stats a while ago and discovered I was leaving almost 30% of putts short, I couldn't believe it. The pros stats are @ 5%. After looking up ways to try and improve this I found something by Jack Nichlaus who said when this happened to him he would focus on a point past the hole and putt with that as the target. Greg Norman had something similar, saying there's 4 ways to miss a putt, so make sure you eliminate one of them.

    http://www.shark.com/sharkwatch/instruction/lesson50.php

    Anyway, I tried their advice and now am hovering about 10% left short. But more importantly I have had no problems with short putts, which is something I used to have from time to time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭Webbs


    For those putts that arent fast downhill breaking putts I am always looking to 'pour' the ball into the hole.

    I imagine a pace that will drop the ball to the back of the cup, but not hitting back edge of the cup (so not a 'ramming' it in).

    I find that on the 2-3 foot putts this is ideal pace to be able to hit inside the cup and if god forbid I miss then am not going to have a 5 footer back.

    As everyone has said though this is all about practice on the putting green before you go out, hit maybe 10 -20 of this distance to get that correct pace into your head before playing.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,138 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    I hate these threads... I hate anything that makes me think about putting :)
    Such bad memories about the fear of missing or being conscious about my stroke (mid putt) that left me with a stroke that was full of the DT's.

    I've practiced an awful lot this year and one day I got bored and started messing around with short putts.
    Deliberately trying to hit as bad a stroke as possible whilst still holing it. I've continued to do that (sporadically) since then when practicing.... Holing a few from the heel, a few from the toe, standing on one leg...Whatever :)
    It mightn't be everyone's cup of tea but for me it certainly has helped me, if I'm waiting to hit my 2-3 footer, all I'm saying to myself is that "I am a good putter, I can hole this even if I hit a bad putt"

    Practice and a bit of delusion is all that's required ;) and after the delusion works it can turn into genuine confidence (or a state where fear doesn't come into it)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭newport2


    PARlance wrote: »
    Practice and a bit of delusion is all that's required ;) and after the delusion works it can turn into genuine confidence (or a state where fear doesn't come into it)

    +1

    Remember a few years ago Vijay Singh - bad putter - started telling everyone he was the best putter in the world and he almost convinced himself. He started putting brilliantly, one of which was a 25 footer to defeat Sergio on final hole.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/columns/story?id=3561269

    You just need to convince yourself :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    Ben1977 wrote: »
    Not really a problem with putting, just had one of those days. I will always use these methods I find they both have there advantages.
    My touch is good but I got the 2 methods mix up and in the end that was the reason for the miss. Interested to know if people have 2 thoughts/methods or just 1? Does 1 method cover all your short putts?etc

    Mixing the 2 methods up = No touch/feel for the greens on the day in question.

    Now this is possibly a once off but lets not kid ourselves here because there is no way somebody with a good touch can aim outside the hole, put a good stroke on the ball and ram it through the break from 2 feet. That is all down to touch.

    Somebody with good touch can put a bad stroke on the ball and push or pull puts from this range but that is an entirely different problem. They will not consistently over the course of the round get confused regard the line/break ratio required to sink a put of this length.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Redzah wrote: »
    Mixing the 2 methods up = No touch/feel for the greens on the day in question.

    I disagree completely, you dont need feel or touch on a short putt compared to a long putt.

    Hitting it firmly through the break is caused by a combination of fear and indecisiveness.
    Fear of missing and leaving a long putt back results in people trying to have a "good" miss to guarantee the next one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I disagree completely, you dont need feel or touch on a short putt compared to a long putt.

    Hitting it firmly through the break is caused by a combination of fear and indecisiveness.
    Fear of missing and leaving a long putt back results in people trying to have a "good" miss to guarantee the next one.

    So you agree that it has nothing to do with mixing two methods up then?

    And you also agree that it is more likely stroke related as opposed to mixing two methods up?

    Also, the OP said he missed some by aiming outside the hole smacking them through the break, this does not equate to fear of missing and leaving a long putt back!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Ben1977


    Redzah wrote: »
    Mixing the 2 methods up = No touch/feel for the greens on the day in question.

    Now this is possibly a once off but lets not kid ourselves here because there is no way somebody with a good touch can aim outside the hole, put a good stroke on the ball and ram it through the break from 2 feet. That is all down to touch.

    Somebody with good touch can put a bad stroke on the ball and push or pull puts from this range but that is an entirely different problem. They will not consistently over the course of the round get confused regard the line/break ratio required to sink a put of this length.

    No sorry you are wrong. Mixing up the methods is down to me not deciding what way I'm going to hit the putt before I walk in to it. The one I did hole was a down hill putt off less than 2 feet, it broke about 9 inches. I stood behind it said to myself pick a spot outside of the hole and hit the putt out of the toe to give it a dead hit. Straight in the middle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    Ben1977 wrote: »
    No sorry you are wrong. Mixing up the methods is down to me not deciding what way I'm going to hit the putt before I walk in to it. The one I did hole was a down hill putt off less than 2 feet, it broke about 9 inches. I stood behind it said to myself pick a spot outside of the hole and hit the putt out of the toe to give it a dead hit. Straight in the middle.

    Ok, keep fooling yourself but if you have to consciously think about the pace you are hitting a 2 foot putt then you have no touch in my opinion. In my opinion, the requirement for what pace to hit a 2 foot putt sits in the sub-conscious area of an individual who has the touch/feel of the greens.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    There are no "methods", you hit each putt at the best pace, for you, that holes any given putt. Anything more than that is way overthinking it IMHO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Ben1977


    Redzah wrote: »
    Ok, keep fooling yourself but if you have to consciously think about the pace you are hitting a 2 foot putt then you have no touch in my opinion. In my opinion, the requirement for what pace to hit a 2 foot putt sits in the sub-conscious area of an individual who has the touch/feel of the greens.

    Wrong again, I never talked about pace.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,000 ✭✭✭Russman


    Redzah wrote: »
    Ok, keep fooling yourself but if you have to consciously think about the pace you are hitting a 2 foot putt then you have no touch in my opinion. In my opinion, the requirement for what pace to hit a 2 foot putt sits in the sub-conscious area of an individual who has the touch/feel of the greens.

    This, times 10.
    Every putt is slightly different, and will need to be hit slightly differently, but we can't consciously decide on pace A for this putt and pace B for the next, it's not like there's settings on our strokes. I might see a putt as being left edge, someone else might see it as being outside left, we can both be right because we see putts based on our own strokes and the pace we naturally hit putts. Certainly I'd never think a putt is left edge if I hit it at x pace, that extra bit is just complicating things IMO.

    I suppose it's a bit like the old question, is golf an art or a science ? different people will see it differently.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    Ben1977 wrote: »
    Wrong again, I never talked about pace.

    lol, a bit of credability being lost here i sense. I'll give you a chance to clarify then, if you are not talking about pace in the context of what line you take for a given putt then what are you talking about?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    He is talking about indecision between firm and "straight" or die it in allowing for break.

    There is noting about lack of feel there or inability to judge the pace of a short putt.
    In any case there is no single pace for any putt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Ben1977


    Ben1977 wrote: »
    No sorry you are wrong. Mixing up the methods is down to me not deciding what way I'm going to hit the putt before I walk in to it. The one I did hole was a down hill putt off less than 2 feet, it broke about 9 inches. I stood behind it said to myself pick a spot outside of the hole and hit the putt out of the toe to give it a dead hit. Straight in the middle.

    I just never talked about pace, just really interested in peoples methods.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Ben1977


    GreeBo wrote: »
    He is talking about indecision between firm and "straight" or die it in allowing for break.

    There is noting about lack of feel there or inability to judge the pace of a short putt.
    In any case there is no single pace for any putt.

    Exactly couldn't put it better myself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    GreeBo wrote: »
    He is talking about indecision between firm and "straight" or die it in allowing for break.

    There is noting about lack of feel there or inability to judge the pace of a short putt.
    In any case there is no single pace for any putt.

    The two items bolded above are tangents of pace. This is not a conscious thought for a golfer who has a feel for the greens/touch for a putt of 2 ft in length. It is a straightforward right edge, inside left etc.

    It is all about lack of feel for the OP, he had an inability to judge the pace/line ration to sink his 2ft putts in his round.

    If it had to do with a dodgy stroke, pushing/pulling putts then he would have mentioned it but this thread is not about this. Therefore it has to be his lack of feel/touch.

    If i was playing with him the other day and he was hitting 2 foot putts outside the hole and smacking them through the break or dieing them at the hole and they're breaking too much then it would be obvious to me that he hadn't got the feel of the greens.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Ben1977


    Redzah wrote: »
    The two items bolded above are tangents of pace. This is not a conscious thought for a golfer who has a feel for the greens/touch for a putt of 2 ft in length. It is a straightforward right edge, inside left etc.

    It is all about lack of feel for the OP, he had an inability to judge the pace/line ration to sink his 2ft putts in his round.

    If it had to do with a dodgy stroke, pushing/pulling putts then he would have mentioned it but this thread is not about this. Therefore it has to be his lack of feel/touch.

    If i was playing with him the other day and he was hitting 2 foot putts outside the hole and smacking them through the break or dieing them at the hole and they're breaking too much then it would be obvious to me that he hadn't got the feel of the greens.

    I guess I can't convince you that there is nothing wrong with the pace or feel, so lets move on.

    In your own game do you use different methods or a version of these?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Redzah wrote: »
    The two items bolded above are tangents of pace. This is not a conscious thought for a golfer who has a feel for the greens/touch for a putt of 2 ft in length. It is a straightforward right edge, inside left etc.

    It is all about lack of feel for the OP, he had an inability to judge the pace/line ration to sink his 2ft putts in his round.

    If it had to do with a dodgy stroke, pushing/pulling putts then he would have mentioned it but this thread is not about this. Therefore it has to be his lack of feel/touch.

    If i was playing with him the other day and he was hitting 2 foot putts outside the hole and smacking them through the break or dieing them at the hole and they're breaking too much then it would be obvious to me that he hadn't got the feel of the greens.

    You say its about lack of feel and that its "straightforward right edge, inside left etc" yet ignore that the line is totally dependent on the pace you are going to hit it.

    Do you disagree that you can die it on one line and hit it firmly on a completely different line?

    It would be obvious to me that he was mixing two methods, not that he cant figure out the pace of a 2 foot putt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 301 ✭✭Sean_pop


    Ben1977 wrote: »
    How do you approach those short putts which have a bit of break?

    I'm talking about the 2 footer where you know at dead weight you have to aim outside the hole. During my last round I was left with 5 of these types of putts and missed all but one. I find it very difficult to make a small enough swing when aiming outside the hole. Generally I hit it on line but just power it through the break.

    So the two options I have are, aim inside the hole with an aggressive stroke or hit it out of the toe and let it drop in dead weight. Thinking of the 5 putts from the last round I got the 2 methods mixed up. eg picked my aim point outside the hole and just powered it through it or I did the opposite, took dead aim and just tapped the putt and it falls away on the low side.

    So what method do you use? Did you use the 2 methods? Have you changed from one method to another and seen an improvement?

    Bang them in the bag of the hole. I tried to do that Saturday and ended up 3 putting from 3 foot.:o:o:o


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭Redzah


    GreeBo wrote: »
    You say its about lack of feel and that its "straightforward right edge, inside left etc" yet ignore that the line is totally dependent on the pace you are going to hit it.

    Do you disagree that you can die it on one line and hit it firmly on a completely different line?

    It would be obvious to me that he was mixing two methods, not that he cant figure out the pace of a 2 foot putt.

    The line becomes muss less dependant on the pace the ball is hit from 2 feet (as opposed to say an 8 ft putt). In many of cases from this distance a putt that starts on line will go in irrespective of pace.

    For example, a right edge putt will go in the right half if hit a bit too firm, in the centre if hit at the right pace, and in the left half if hit a little weak. It takes quite a large variation from this for a putt of this length to miss purely on pace alone i.e. a putt that is hit exceptionally strong or exceptionally weak. The overwhelming majority of these putts are missed due to not being started on the intended line, whether it be a push/pull or terrible read.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,505 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Redzah wrote: »
    The line becomes muss less dependant on the pace the ball is hit from 2 feet (as opposed to say an 8 ft putt). In many of cases from this distance a putt that starts on line will go in irrespective of pace.

    How can it be on line irrespective of pace?
    We are not talking about straight 2 foot putts here, its its straight there is no line to worry about.


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