Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

former legend

Buer wrote: »

That's not the Leinster way! Boo-urns! Change the coach!

Dead right Buer, if we're not slinging it around like the Harlem Globetrotters on Friday night, I'll be baying for blood.

I'd hope to see:

Healy/Dundon/Furlong
McCarthy/Douglas
Ruddock/Ryan/Conan
Reddan/Madigan
McFadden/D'Arcy/Macken/Fanning
Kearney

Ideally I'd like to see Kearney rested ahead of the Munster game but we're very short on full-backs. Heaslip, Toner, Cronin, Ross and J McGrath to be rested and that team should be capable of beating Cardiff. (I'm assuming O'Brien is still injured).

Sangre

I'm based in London. Is there any way I can secure Leinster tickets for the away HCup games being played in England this year? I am not a season ticket holder (for obvious reasons).

Eponymous

Sangre wrote: »

I'm based in London. Is there any way I can secure Leinster tickets for the away HCup games being played in England this year? I am not a season ticket holder (for obvious reasons).

Either via Wasps or Quins or possibly on Ticketmaster?

If you know an STH who isn't planning on going, perhaps they'll purchase from the Leinster allocation for you?

former legend

Sangre wrote: »

I'm based in London. Is there any way I can secure Leinster tickets for the away HCup games being played in England this year? I am not a season ticket holder (for obvious reasons).

https://www.eticketing.co.uk/wasps/default.aspx

Sangre

Thanks guys, a home STH was my backup option.

I'll check out those links. I, perhaps foolishly, assumed that the tickets wouldn't go one general sale given size of stadium.

irishbucsfan

Sangre wrote: »

I'm based in London. Is there any way I can secure Leinster tickets for the away HCup games being played in England this year? I am not a season ticket holder (for obvious reasons).

You should have no trouble getting them through the Wasps/Quins site.

molloyjh

Tox56 wrote: »

In not nervous really, we could play this game for every week until the end of time and never lose it, it's the season as a whole that worries me, regardless of what happens on Friday. The best we can hope for is a comprehensive, confidence building demolition and move on, the only result here that has a real effect on the season would be a loss, and as I said, I can't see that at all

It will be interesting to see who is available this week. We shouldn't lose, but then I said that last week too. Also, wasn't the Scarlets game the backlash that built confidence? We went out to Galway with almost the exact same squad and most certainly did not build on that performance. If we're going into this game with a raft of changes (potentially) where does that leave us?

Also, despite what some may think, I couldn't give a fiddlers what game plan we execute so long as we execute one well.

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm actually genuinely nervous about this game on Friday. It's as close to a must win as you get at this stage in the season. Assuming Glasgow beat Connacht this weekend they'll be on at least 17 points. And it's hard to see them dropping many over the course of the season the way they look. Falling 9-10 points behind them so early would make things tough. Should Ospreys win they'd be up to 18 points at least. Although how good they are is hard to tell at this stage.

Cardiff aren't great but who we have available to us we don't know. We cannot afford another performance like Galway.

Leinster'll fookin batter dem.

former legend

molloyjh wrote: »

It will be interesting to see who is available this week. We shouldn't lose, but then I said that last week too. Also, wasn't the Scarlets game the backlash that built confidence? We went out to Galway with almost the exact same squad and most certainly did not build on that performance. If we're going into this game with a raft of changes (potentially) where does that leave us?

Also, despite what some may think, I couldn't give a fiddlers what game plan we execute so long as we execute one well.

I know I'm the eternal optimist when it comes to Leinster of late, but I wouldn't be totally dismissive of the performance against Connacht. We were very good in the first half, we controlled the game well, dominated the set piece, worked hard at the breakdown. If those TMO calls had gone our way, we'd have been 20 points up at half time and it was game over.

So the ability is still there, why it all fell to bits in the second half is the question MOC needs to sort out. Hopefully they've gone through the video frame by frame and identified all the poor decisions we made because there were a lot of them.

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster'll fookin batter dem.

You've come too far north.

ssaye2

http://www.thescore.ie/dominic-ryan-long-term-stay-leinster-interview-1685204-Sep2014/

.ak

former legend wrote: »

I know I'm the eternal optimist when it comes to Leinster of late, but I wouldn't be totally dismissive of the performance against Connacht. We were very good in the first half, we controlled the game well, dominated the set piece, worked hard at the breakdown. If those TMO calls had gone our way, we'd have been 20 points up at half time and it was game over.

So the ability is still there, why it all fell to bits in the second half is the question MOC needs to sort out. Hopefully they've gone through the video frame by frame and identified all the poor decisions we made because there were a lot of them.

I'd agree. You need to look at every game in its own right. We did a lot right in Connacht. I thought we were utterly dominant up front and I said after the Glasgow game I didn't really care about results so long as we addressed the issues we saw there. We did, and then some. For me rugby is all about the systems. I don't care about skill levels or accuracy, you can improve those things as much as you want but they won't mean anything if the systems don't work.

What we saw in the first half was a complete display of absolute dominance because of our systems off ruck ball. That is to say, our forwards were all in their right positions and doing the right stuff at the right time. Sounds simple, but it's not. The best teams in the world are the best because they have a huge amount of work rate to get themselves into position after every breakdown. It's not all about doing your best to make sure you're doing your job, but also making sure everyone is doing theirs.

We saw after each breakdown a pod was setup on each side of the ruck, giving options left and right, the guys from the previous breakdown peeling away to offer support on the ensuing breakdown. No one out runners, no static ball, a constant belt-driven well oiled machine. At times Connacht couldn't live with us. It only really fell apart towards the end when we looked tired and frustrated, so that's another thing to work on, but there'll also be a bit of forgiveness there as we lost Jennings after coming on for Ryan, Maccer moved to 6 and Rhys took a fair ol' knock and probably should've gone off. Our backrow was only really going on one leg.

Fine, our accuracy let us down, and the backs need to hold up their hands to that, but the fact we were in the position to score 3 or 4 tries in a ground where we barely get a sniff usually was massively important to the development of this team. The sooner people realize we aren't the team of 2010/11 the better. In a lot of ways we're starting from scratch, and we need to get the basics right.

The management will come away from that game disappointed but they'll also be very relieved that the systems they've put into place works. If they can get that airtight the rest will follow.

molloyjh

former legend wrote: »

I know I'm the eternal optimist when it comes to Leinster of late, but I wouldn't be totally dismissive of the performance against Connacht. We were very good in the first half, we controlled the game well, dominated the set piece, worked hard at the breakdown. If those TMO calls had gone our way, we'd have been 20 points up at half time and it was game over.

So the ability is still there, why it all fell to bits in the second half is the question MOC needs to sort out. Hopefully they've gone through the video frame by frame and identified all the poor decisions we made because there were a lot of them.

It may or may not have been you, but someone certainly said on the Connacht forum that if you're dependent on the TMO decisions going your way then you haven't done enough. And both TMO decisions were correct so I wouldn't focus on those at all.

As I said before I felt fairly comfortable at half time all things considered, but in hindsight we lost the game because we couldn't convert possession and territory into points during the first 40. Connacht went in at the break completely in the game and growing in confidence. The game should have been all over at that stage. It's Popey's "even break" thing again. Remember Scotland-Ireland in 2013? How can a team be so dominant for 25 minutes and score nothing, with the opposition down to 14 men for 10 of those minutes.

The second half was a separate issue again. Whatever about getting yourself in a position to score and failing to, not even being able to get yourself into that position is even worse. I'd be curious to know though how much of that was driven by our inability to take our chances in the first half? Were changes made (be it at coaching or individual level) to how we approached the second half because of the fact that we weren't executing properly? In other words, fix the first issue and head the second one off at the pass? Were individuals trying to force the game because of those 25 minutes and creating errors as a result?

awec

So, has anyone else still not received their season ticket?

.ak

awec wrote: »

So, has anyone else still not received their season ticket?

Haha. I was joking about not taking the hint, but maybe LR really don't want you there....

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I'd agree. You need to look at every game in its own right. We did a lot right in Connacht. I thought we were utterly dominant up front and I said after the Glasgow game I didn't really care about results so long as we addressed the issues we saw there. We did, and then some. For me rugby is all about the systems. I don't care about skill levels or accuracy, you can improve those things as much as you want but they won't mean anything if the systems don't work.

What we saw in the first half was a complete display of absolute dominance because of our systems off ruck ball. That is to say, our forwards were all in their right positions and doing the right stuff at the right time. Sounds simple, but it's not. The best teams in the world are the best because they have a huge amount of work rate to get themselves into position after every breakdown. It's not all about doing your best to make sure you're doing your job, but also making sure everyone is doing theirs.

We saw after each breakdown a pod was setup on each side of the ruck, giving options left and right, the guys from the previous breakdown peeling away to offer support on the ensuing breakdown. No one out runners, no static ball, a constant belt-driven well oiled machine. At times Connacht couldn't live with us. It only really fell apart towards the end when we looked tired and frustrated, so that's another thing to work on, but there'll also be a bit of forgiveness there as we lost Jennings after coming on for Ryan, Maccer moved to 6 and Rhys took a fair ol' knock and probably should've gone off. Our backrow was only really going on one leg.

Fine, our accuracy let us down, and the backs need to hold up their hands to that, but the fact we were in the position to score 3 or 4 tries in a ground where we barely get a sniff usually was massively important to the development of this team. The sooner people realize we aren't the team of 2010/11 the better. In a lot of ways we're starting from scratch, and we need to get the basics right.

The management will come away from that game disappointed but they'll also be very relieved that the systems they've put into place works. If they can get that airtight the rest will follow.

Sorry ak, but there is as much wrong in the above as right. If you look at the first half alone then most of what you have said applies. If you look at the second half then very little of it does. That is probably what was the most frustrating thing about the game. Going from dominant to aimless so quickly and so easily.

Also I don't know anyone (or at least anyone with a decent knowledge of the game) who expects anything like Leinster under Joe. That's a line that gets trotted out a lot these days but it's fairly irrelevant. We are not starting from scratch though either. The players and coaches have had over a year together now. The systems argument should not still apply. If it does then someone in the set-up is doing something really wrong.

Finally there seemed to me to be an element of panic to some of our play in the second half. Like some of the players were abandoning the systems because they weren't getting the result. Now whether you blame the player for doing that, the coaches for not instilling the confidence in the system or a little bit of both is irrelevant. It was still, as far as I could see, happening.

These are all things that need to be identified and addressed. Hopefully they will be. And for the record I don't expect that to happen overnight either. It's a process. But it needs to be an open and honest one from the start.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Sorry ak, but there is as much wrong in the above as right. If you look at the first half alone then most of what you have said applies. If you look at the second half then very little of it does. That is probably what was the most frustrating thing about the game. Going from dominant to aimless so quickly and so easily.

I was talking about the first 50 min, like I said those systems died a death in the 2nd half but even in the later stages we were making yards for fun, despite having a heap of injuries in the back row.

Also I don't know anyone (or at least anyone with a decent knowledge of the game) who expects anything like Leinster under Joe. That's a line that gets trotted out a lot these days but it's fairly irrelevant. We are not starting from scratch though either. The players and coaches have had over a year together now. The systems argument should not still apply. If it does then someone in the set-up is doing something really wrong.

What I meant by starting from scratch is under MOC we are. It's far too early in the season to judge if it worked - for the most part Leinster have addressed the issues of last season, which for me was what was going on with our pack. People are more interested in back play or lack thereof, but for me our biggest issues were our pack were completely off the boil and uninitialized. In two of three games so far we've been far better drilled up front compared to last season.

Finally there seemed to me to be an element of panic to some of our play in the second half. Like some of the players were abandoning the systems because they weren't getting the result. Now whether you blame the player for doing that, the coaches for not instilling the confidence in the system or a little bit of both is irrelevant. It was still, as far as I could see, happening.

Absolutely. That's what I was talking about when I said those systems started to fall apart - either down to key players being injured, not match fit or tired. It was an attrition game and the type of systems we play demand a high level of concentration for 80 minutes. Once the pack started to tire and the support players weren't hitting those shoulders the backs panicked and in particular JG tried to save the day too much when he should've been keeping it up the middle. Without having a bulky midfield though you can understand his panic. It'd be very unsympathetic to give the ball to Madigan to run into a water tight wall.

These are all things that need to be identified and addressed. Hopefully they will be. And for the record I don't expect that to happen overnight either. It's a process. But it needs to be an open and honest one from the start.

Does it have to be open and honest? I mean, they're a professional team. I've every faith that the management know what went wrong with the Connacht game. We saw last season that MOC didn't address issues with certain failings in our game plan, but does that mean he didn't try to address them? Well, we just don't know. Because we're not privy to that info.

It's another Schmidt comparison I'm loath to make, but Schmidt got a load of plaudits because he was so open about tactics and game plan and issues. But another thing Schmidt did wonderfully was gamesmanship. He knew exactly what to say to the TV crews and he knew what sort of effect it'd have on the public, the players and the opposition. I doubt everything he said he was honest and open either.

Crash

awec wrote: »

So, has anyone else still not received their season ticket?

Mine arrived in the post this morning.

former legend

molloyjh wrote: »

It may or may not have been you, but someone certainly said on the Connacht forum that if you're dependent on the TMO decisions going your way then you haven't done enough. And both TMO decisions were correct so I wouldn't focus on those at all.

I didn't dispute the correctness of the calls, but the fact remains we played ourselves into the position to get very close to scoring. Is that not what we want to see, positive attacking play, getting into the right positions etc etc?

The second half was a separate issue again. Whatever about getting yourself in a position to score and failing to, not even being able to get yourself into that position is even worse. I'd be curious to know though how much of that was driven by our inability to take our chances in the first half? Were changes made (be it at coaching or individual level) to how we approached the second half because of the fact that we weren't executing properly? In other words, fix the first issue and head the second one off at the pass? Were individuals trying to force the game because of those 25 minutes and creating errors as a result?

Not sure this is correct either. We got ourselves into the right positions plenty of times in the second half; twice we got a rolling maul going within touching distance of the Connacht line and twice we f**ked it up. Even in the last minute, we had 12 or 14 phases of good possession, inching into drop goal territory until McGrath f**ked it up. If Madigan could tackle, Connacht wouldn't have scored either in the second half.

I'd be shocked if O'Connor said anything other than "keep it up lads" at half time, but why the players got so jittery I've no idea.

ssaye2

What should the players do if they panic.

Kick long for territory and hope Dev can steal ball. I personally would keep going for territory.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

What I meant by starting from scratch is under MOC we are. It's far too early in the season to judge if it worked - for the most part Leinster have addressed the issues of last season, which for me was what was going on with our pack. People are more interested in back play or lack thereof, but for me our biggest issues were our pack were completely off the boil and uninitialized. In two of three games so far we've been far better drilled up front compared to last season.

Are you sure about our pack? We were bullied about the park in Scotstoun and in Galway while we were dominant in the first half, in the second we were poor. We weren't resourcing the rucks properly/enough for example. We haven't seen any great consistency in that regard as of yet.

.ak wrote: »

Absolutely. That's what I was talking about when I said those systems started to fall apart - either down to key players being injured, not match fit or tired. It was an attrition game and the type of systems we play demand a high level of concentration for 80 minutes. Once the pack started to tire and the support players weren't hitting those shoulders the backs panicked and in particular JG tried to save the day too much when he should've been keeping it up the middle. Without having a bulky midfield though you can understand his panic. It'd be very unsympathetic to give the ball to Madigan to run into a water tight wall.

I'm not sure how we can accept Connacht having a water tight wall while we have a tired pack. Surely we should be matching them for fitness at the very least? And if our game plan leads to that kind of dip in performance then something is either wrong with the fitness of the players or the game plan. It's an 80 minute game, there's no point in saying you got tired after 60 or 70 minutes.

.ak wrote: »

Does it have to be open and honest?

What I mean by that is that they are open and honest with themselves, not with us. That's not to say they aren't, it's just a bland general statement.

former legend wrote: »

I didn't dispute the correctness of the calls, but the fact remains we played ourselves into the position to get very close to scoring. Is that not what we want to see, positive attacking play, getting into the right positions etc etc?

Perhaps this is where the issue lies. The answer to this question is yes, kind of. Of course we all want to see that. I want to see it with more consistency. And if any game sums up my concerns it is that Connacht one. We have the ability, none of us have ever doubted that. We need to deliver on it properly.

former legend wrote: »

I'd be shocked if O'Connor said anything other than "keep it up lads" at half time, but why the players got so jittery I've no idea.

I wouldn't be shocked if MOC said something other than "keep it up". Not because of any opinions I have of him but because of what I saw on the pitch. That's not to say he did say anything different, just that I wouldn't be surprised. It could have been him (and/or the other coaches) every bit as much as it could have been the players.

Eponymous

awec wrote: »

So, has anyone else still not received their season ticket?

One of the gang I go with hasn't either, but they printed their ticket down for the last game and that was accepted for picking up the ST pack too. Very odd not to have got them yet.

former legend

ssaye2 wrote: »

What should the players do if they panic.

Kick long for territory and hope Dev can steal ball. I personally would keep going for territory.

Ideally, they wouldn't panic in the first place, but the answer is that they should mix the game up.

We made it very easy for Connacht to defend because we kept trying to run it back at them so Connacht were able to defend very high and just nail us every time.

If we had kept Connacht guessing a bit more, put the odd kick in behind them or gone for the corner, it would have forced their back three to hang back more, but as it was they just fanned across and waited for us to come. Especially with a back three as inexperienced as Connacht's, we should have been testing their positioning at every opportunity.

Zzippy

.ak wrote: »

Absolutely. That's what I was talking about when I said those systems started to fall apart - either down to key players being injured, not match fit or tired. It was an attrition game and the type of systems we play demand a high level of concentration for 80 minutes. Once the pack started to tire and the support players weren't hitting those shoulders the backs panicked and in particular JG tried to save the day too much when he should've been keeping it up the middle.

Surely you're not saying Leinster players weren't fit enough to compete with Connacht??!!

:P

Tox56

The fitness of the players was not the issue, we went nearly the length of the field in the 79th minute, it was what we were doing with the ball that was the problem. Once we made some good decisions we were able to go from our 5m line to nearly the Connacht 22 when the side would have been at its most fatigued.

Jesus, even thinking about this game makes me want to smash my head against a wall, what a cock up

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Are you sure about our pack? We were bullied about the park in Scotstoun and in Galway while we were dominant in the first half, in the second we were poor. We weren't resourcing the rucks properly/enough for example. We haven't seen any great consistency in that regard as of yet.

We were bullied around in Scoutstoun, but that was the point I was making. We absolutely addressed those issues, and addressing issues is something we criticized MOC for last season - so if we're being critical about that we should be equally fair and applaud the fact he addressed it, and quickly.

I'm not sure how we can accept Connacht having a water tight wall while we have a tired pack. Surely we should be matching them for fitness at the very least? And if our game plan leads to that kind of dip in performance then something is either wrong with the fitness of the players or the game plan. It's an 80 minute game, there's no point in saying you got tired after 60 or 70 minutes.

We can't we accept that? I'm probably going to get a lot of flack from our western brothers on this, but I don't think Connacht played particularly well, they certainly didn't need to test their fitness like we did, instead they picked their battles a bit more cleverly. The fitness may be an issue, but it's our third game, we have key players who always take a few games to get up to speed in terms of fitness. I also made the point that we picked up injuries to key players and that contributed to us losing our shape up front somewhat.

Buer made the point on the match day thread though; watch the last quarter of the game, despite limping through it we were still getting front foot ball. We needed to keep it in the pack, despite a lot of tired bodies out there we were making yards up the middle. The half-backs were at fault there for not recognising that. A mixture of inexperience in McGrath and over exuberance in JG is the reason we absolutely stuttered in the final section of the game.


To answer Zippy on this as well, yes - I do think Leinster's fitness was telling towards the end, but as I said above, that's not to say it was down to the opposition being fitter, it was just a taxing system we had on our forwards. You're relying on 3+ players peeling around every ruck whilst producing quick ball. It's incredibly tiring. Whilst defending itself is tiring Connacht were happy enough to soak it up.

What I mean by that is that they are open and honest with themselves, not with us. That's not to say they aren't, it's just a bland general statement.

Gotcha.

.ak

Tox56 wrote: »

The fitness of the players was not the issue, we went nearly the length of the field in the 79th minute, it was what we were doing with the ball that was the problem. Once we made some good decisions we were able to go from our 5m line to nearly the Connacht 22 when the side would have been at its most fatigued.

Jesus, even thinking about this game makes me want to smash my head against a wall, what a cock up

I think there were a few issues with fitness. When McGrath was dishing the ball out to the forwards he was under a lot of pressure waiting for a pod to assemble. It was a bit hard to watch to be honest, as a scrumhalf he knows he has to move the ball quickly or be penalized. At one stage he had to pass it to Rhys, who was out of play because he was injured. Being Rhys he still took the ball up himself and made a few yards. But that's the kind of position we were in, we certainly weren't as organised up front in the final quarter as we were in the opening. Fitness was definitely an issue, but you'd expect it from any side after a game like that.

armchaircoach

Tox56 wrote: »

The fitness of the players was not the issue, we went nearly the length of the field in the 79th minute, it was what we were doing with the ball that was the problem. Once we made some good decisions we were able to go from our 5m line to nearly the Connacht 22 when the side would have been at its most fatigued.

Jesus, even thinking about this game makes me want to smash my head against a wall, what a cock up

The fitness of some players was a big issue. Reddan was absolutely shagged by 50 min into the game, but was inexplicably kept on to keep getting worse and slower. McGrath was only put on with 5 min to go, then suddenly we start moving up the pitch quickly again.

thomond2006

http://www.ticketmaster.ie/guinness-pro12-leinster-rugby-v-dublin-09-26-2014/event/18004D0FDF4B37E6?artistid=33312&majorcatid=10004&minorcatid=225

Is someone really going to pay €50 or €60 for a stand ticket to this match?! Seems excessive.

Zzippy

.ak wrote: »

We can't we accept that? I'm probably going to get a lot of flack from our western brothers on this, but I don't think Connacht played particularly well, they certainly didn't need to test their fitness like we did, instead they picked their battles a bit more cleverly. The fitness may be an issue, but it's our third game, we have key players who always take a few games to get up to speed in terms of fitness. I also made the point that we picked up injuries to key players and that contributed to us losing our shape up front somewhat.

Buer made the point on the match day thread though; watch the last quarter of the game, despite limping through it we were still getting front foot ball. We needed to keep it in the pack, despite a lot of tired bodies out there we were making yards up the middle. The half-backs were at fault there for not recognising that. A mixture of inexperience in McGrath and over exuberance in JG is the reason we absolutely stuttered in the final section of the game.


To answer Zippy on this as well, yes - I do think Leinster's fitness was telling towards the end, but as I said above, that's not to say it was down to the opposition being fitter, it was just a taxing system we had on our forwards. You're relying on 3+ players peeling around every ruck whilst producing quick ball. It's incredibly tiring. Whilst defending itself is tiring Connacht were happy enough to soak it up.




Gotcha.

No flak, freely admit we didn't play well either, and the stats bear that out - more turnovers, more missed tackles, less possession and territory. But that's a great positive to be able to take a win and know you have a lot to work on to improve, so happy enough. Where I think we did win is line speed in defence - Gopperth and Madigan are really shown up under pressure - get in their faces and they are a lot less impressive. They also put no pressure on our backline - a few kicks in behind would have kept our defensive line more honest and given the Leinster outside backs a bit more space. Reddan was thoroughly outplayed by Marmion and again, is not great under pressure. After the first two scrums, Connacht gained parity there and even got on top at times, so the much-vaunted setpiece didn't provide quality ball either. I thought Buckley had the better of Ross and was outstanding in the loose.

Leinster's system of peeling around rucks only works if you win the rucks in the first place, if you don't commit enough men to rucks you won't get quick ball back to enable that system. If they're not fit enough to do it you adapt, you don't keep doing the same thing and hope the opposition will tire first. Seems Leinster's superior conditioning is a thing of the past.