Fresh allegations regarding abuses of the Penalty Point system

Iwannahurl

Despite assurances given and procedural changes introduced after recurring controversy over the last year and a half, the Penalty Point system is emphatically back in the news.

Garda whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe has made fresh claims that some gardaí are still improperly terminating penalty points, despite assurances by management that the practice had ceased.

A new set of Garda allegations - Immediate action is essential

If weekend reports that gardaí are still cancelling penalty points for law-breaking drivers are true, and there is absolutely no reason to imagine that they are not, then our police force has become a sorry, dysfunctional and, though it is tragic and frightening to have to use these descriptions, a corrupt and out-of-control force.

The claim is based on information, given in recent days to Dáil Public Accounts Committee chairman Fianna Fáil's John McGuinness, by garda whistle blower and Traffic Corps officer Sgt Maurice McCabe. They were published by The Sunday Times.

Sgt McCabe insists that that the abuses remain widespread and continue on a "wholesale" basis despite repeated assurances from the highest levels of garda management that the inappropriate practice had ceased. The allegation takes on an even more serious aspect because Sgt McCabe has told Mr McGuinnness that he had made an official report on the ongoing misuse of power but to no avail.

The direct implications are so challenging for Government that they cannot be ignored. Neither can they be long-fingered, an immediate and convincing response is essential.

Penalty points issue: Gardaí continue to miss the point

The notion that abuse of the penalty points system has continued through all the upheavals surrounding the issue, in both politics and policing, beggars belief, writes Michael Clifford

Today’s revelations of continued abuse of the penalty points system in recent years requires context. The notion that abuse of the system had continued over the last 20 months, through all the upheavals surrounding the issue, in both politics and policing, beggars belief. The only conclusion that can be reached is that those abusing the system believed that supreme impunity attached to their actions, irrespective of what was unfolding in the world outside their offices.

Little CuChulainn

Good to see he is using his access to PULSE to do his job. I have a feeling this will be a bit of a backfire on McCabe and people who hop on his bandwagon. I've been listening to some of the allegations and they all seem to be based on a misunderstanding of both the law and the system.

Just as an example, one of the main issues raised is the use of a statutory exemption on emergency services vehicles for private vehicles. In fact there is no such exemption, the exemption is for members of emergency services no matter what car they drive, even their own one, as long as it is considered in the course of duty. And there is case law already established that this includes traveling to and from work. There was also an example raised of one ticket cancelled because it was in the wrong Townland and the "journalist" claimed that other tickets issue around the same time were not cancelled. I think it would be obvious to anyone that this was because nobody else appealed on those grounds. It's really only something a Garda or legal professional would cop.

I don't think this is an abuse of the system, I think it is Gardaí using their knowledge of the law and the system to avoid penalty points.

Iwannahurl

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I don't think this is an abuse of the system, I think it is Gardaí using their knowledge of the law and the system to avoid penalty points.

Perhaps, in general, Gardai might put their knowledge of the law to better use by not driving in a manner that warrants Penalty Points.

Little CuChulainn

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Perhaps, in general, Gardai might put their knowledge of the law to better use by not driving in a manner that warrants Penalty Points.

But they didn't warrant penalty points if they were cancelled with proper reason within the bounds of the new procedures. Innocent until proven guilty is as good for the goose as it is for the Gardaí. You've already convicted them all without a shred of evidence other than the word of a guy with a grudge.

Iwannahurl

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You've already convicted them all without a shred of evidence other than the word of a guy with a grudge.

Where? When?

As for "a guy with a grudge" perhaps it has escaped your notice that Sgt McCabe has been vindicated while a Garda Commissioner and Minister for Justice have been forced to resign and a Principal Officer required to "stand aside".

Little CuChulainn

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Where? When?.

Perhaps, in general, Gardai might put their knowledge of the law to better use by not driving in a manner that warrants Penalty Points

You've already assumed they've broken the law.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

As for "a guy with a grudge" perhaps it has escaped your notice that Sgt McCabe has been vindicated while a Garda Commissioner and Minister for Justice have been forced to resign and a Principal Officer required to "stand aside".

Hasn't escaped my notice at all. Doesn't mean he doesn't still hold a grudge, especially if he feels vicitimsed for what he did. I know I would.

hollypink

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

But they didn't warrant penalty points if they were cancelled with proper reason within the bounds of the new procedures. Innocent until proven guilty is as good for the goose as it is for the Gardaí. You've already convicted them all without a shred of evidence other than the word of a guy with a grudge.

I thought though from what I heard on RTE this morning that the main issue is deletions should only occur in the central processing office in Thurles but that Senior Gardai in regional offices have still been cancelling them?

Iwannahurl

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You've already assumed they've broken the law.

Incorrect.

What I said was

Perhaps, in general, Gardai might put their knowledge of the law to better use by not driving in a manner that warrants Penalty Points.

That was in response to your claim:

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I don't think this is an abuse of the system, I think it is Gardaí using their knowledge of the law and the system to avoid penalty points.

If AGS members are knowledgeable about the law they should be using that knowledge to stay within its general terms and demonstrate good driving behaviour to the public. There is also the matter of professionalism and adherence to guidelines (as opposed to, for example, availing of generalised exemptions for personal convenience). I have repeatedly quoted the Garda Inspectorate on this point, to no avail apparently:

Police officers operating Garda vehicles must provide a positive example for other road users and management should develop policies to ensure such is the case. In non-emergency situations, police officers should fully comply with the rules of the road in the operation of vehicles, observing speed limits, traffic signals and refraining from the use of mobile phones while driving.

Little CuChulainn

Look, you opened a thread with two pieces stating there is still wholesale abuse. I contradicted those pieces and now you go on to state that Gardaí should be setting a good example by confining themselves to the same laws as civilians. That's all very laudable but Gardaí often do not have that option. Even confining the use of the road traffic exemption to emergency situations would hamper the effectiveness of the force. Sitting in traffic instead of using a bus lane simply means no patrolling is being done. But this is a completely separate issue and you are just trying to join it in to enforce your point that there is abuse of power.

Should Gardaí be speeding when not on duty? No. Should they not use their knowledge of the law to avoid penalty points? Would you? Is it a disciplinary matter if they do? No. Is this indicative of a culture of abuse of power? No. Is it setting a bad example? When off duty who is it looking to them for example?

The problem with people like you is you have no idea what you want from a police force. You can spout all you want about setting an example by acting within the law like everyone else but the fact is that Gardaí are not subject to the same laws as civilians. They have many exemptions and powers which civilians do not and they require these to do their job. Simple as.

Iwannahurl

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Look, you opened a thread with two pieces stating there is still wholesale abuse. I contradicted those pieces and now you go on to state that Gardaí should be setting a good example by confining themselves to the same laws as civilians. That's all very laudable but Gardaí often do not have that option. Even confining the use of the road traffic exemption to emergency situations would hamper the effectiveness of the force. Sitting in traffic instead of using a bus lane simply means no patrolling is being done. But this is a completely separate issue and you are just trying to join it in to enforce your point that there is abuse of power.

Should Gardaí be speeding when not on duty? No. Should they not use their knowledge of the law to avoid penalty points? Would you? Is it a disciplinary matter if they do? No. Is this indicative of a culture of abuse of power? No. Is it setting a bad example? When off duty who is it looking to them for example?

The problem with people like you is you have no idea what you want from a police force. You can spout all you want about setting an example by acting within the law like everyone else but the fact is that Gardaí are not subject to the same laws as civilians. They have many exemptions and powers which civilians do not and they require these to do their job. Simple as.

Simple as more mealy-mouthed excuses.

Michael Clifford is absolutely right: the Gardai continue to miss the point. No surprise there, whatever about disappointment and frustration.

AFAIK nobody is talking about marked Garda vehicles using bus lanes while on patrol.

If any one excuse goes to the heart of the nature of the abuse it is “Incorrect Townland.” Again, an auditor would see nothing out of the ordinary in such as case if seen in isolation. This infers that the processing of a fixed notice charge suffered from a technical glitch through the wrong name being applied to where a Go-Safe van was located to detect speeding.

But, as the Irish Examiner reports today, this excuse was used in a number of cases to delete points for members of the force only. In one instance, dozens of other detected motorists at the same locations were not informed of this alleged “glitch” and had to suffer both the fine and the application of points to their licence. In other words, those on the inside had their problem sorted, while Joe and Josephine Public just had to take their medicine for the same offence, in the same location.

The "problem" with "people like me" is that we want a professional, effective and accountable police force. In my experience that does not go down well in some quarters, including this forum.

Turner

Should we not wait for the results of the independent GSOC investigation and also that of the Garda Professional Standards Unit, both of which are going to be released to the public?

I can see this as being very straight forward with this piece of legislation being pivotal..(important bits in bold)

23. Section 87 of the Act of 2010 is amended by substituting for subsection (1) the following:

“(1) Requirements under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2010 relating to vehicles and requirements, restrictions and prohibitions relating to the driving and use of vehicles, other than those provided under sections 49, 50, 51A, 52 and 53 of the Principal Act, sections 12, 13 and 15 of the Act of 1994 and sections 4, 5, 11, 12 and 14 of this Act, do not apply to—

(a) the driving or use by a member of the Garda Síochána, an ambulance service (provided by a pre-hospital emergency care service provider recognised by the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council established by the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council (Establishment) Order 2000 ( S.I. No. 109 of 2000 )) or a fire brigade of a fire authority (within the meaning of the Fire Services Act 1981 ) of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member, or

(b) a person driving or using a vehicle under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána,

where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.”.




I suppose the main point here is Gardai are forced to use their private vehicles more and more while they are on duty to complete the many and diverse tasks they have to do as Gardai.


The law states they are exempt from speeding offences and penalty points.

Turner

Turner wrote: »

Should we not wait for the results of the independent GSOC investigation and also that of the Garda Professional Standards Unit, both of which are going to be released to the public?

I can see this as being very straight forward with this piece of legislation being pivotal..(important bits in bold)

23. Section 87 of the Act of 2010 is amended by substituting for subsection (1) the following:

“(1) Requirements under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2010 relating to vehicles and requirements, restrictions and prohibitions relating to the driving and use of vehicles, other than those provided under sections 49, 50, 51A, 52 and 53 of the Principal Act, sections 12, 13 and 15 of the Act of 1994 and sections 4, 5, 11, 12 and 14 of this Act, do not apply to—

(a) the driving or use by a member of the Garda Síochána, an ambulance service (provided by a pre-hospital emergency care service provider recognised by the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council established by the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council (Establishment) Order 2000 ( S.I. No. 109 of 2000 )) or a fire brigade of a fire authority (within the meaning of the Fire Services Act 1981 ) of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member, or

(b) a person driving or using a vehicle under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána,

where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.”.




I suppose the main point here is Gardai are forced to use their private vehicles more and more while they are on duty to complete the many and diverse tasks they have to do as Gardai.


The law states they are exempt from speeding offences and penalty points.

Remember, this is the state of our force. It has improved somewhat but there are still shortages.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-driven-to-scene-of-burglary-by-victim-199600.html

Iwannahurl

Turner wrote: »

The law states they are exempt from speeding offences and penalty points.

The words "friends" and "family" don't appear in the quoted statutes, though they do feature in the latest allegations:

Thousands of suspicious deletions of penalty points for members of the force, and friends or family, have occurred since the matter first came to public attention over 18 months ago.

Turner

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The words "friends" and "family" don't appear in the quoted statutes, though they do feature in the latest allegations:

The law does state "a person under the direction of a member of An Garda Siochana"

Although I think this would be with respect to directing traffic or Gardai escorting a vehicle to hospital etc etc.

Who knows what the allegations are,

I think we should wait for the report, I cant see it being too long before its published.

Turner

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The words "friends" and "family" don't appear in the quoted statutes, though they do feature in the latest allegations:

I though these new allegations were since June ?

Five Lamps

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Good to see he is using his access to PULSE to do his job. I have a feeling this will be a bit of a backfire on McCabe and people who hop on his bandwagon. I've been listening to some of the allegations and they all seem to be based on a misunderstanding of both the law and the system.

Just as an example, one of the main issues raised is the use of a statutory exemption on emergency services vehicles for private vehicles. In fact there is no such exemption, the exemption is for members of emergency services no matter what car they drive, even their own one, as long as it is considered in the course of duty. And there is case law already established that this includes traveling to and from work. There was also an example raised of one ticket cancelled because it was in the wrong Townland and the "journalist" claimed that other tickets issue around the same time were not cancelled. I think it would be obvious to anyone that this was because nobody else appealed on those grounds. It's really only something a Garda or legal professional would cop.

I don't think this is an abuse of the system, I think it is Gardaí using their knowledge of the law and the system to avoid penalty points.

How can this extend to a Garda who is travelling to/from work? That is not in the course of duty no more than my commute to work is somehow in the course of my duties of employment. That needs to be dismantled immediately. BTW can you point to case law on this? I assume it's some very liberal interpretation.

I thought simple errors were something that were correctable? Of course at this stage one has to wonder, if an actual ticket was written by another member if the error was deliberate.

How does this explain friends and family being "sorted out"?

AGS are doing some great work on social media demonstrating policing presence and how the traffic laws are being enforced and so on. This kind of behaviour by their own ranks completely undermines this work.

It is stunning that this behaviour continues despite the fact that it has already cost a Minister, a Commissioner, the trusted confident and the head of the DoJ their jobs.

Five Lamps

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Look, you opened a thread with two pieces stating there is still wholesale abuse. I contradicted those pieces and now you go on to state that Gardaí should be setting a good example by confining themselves to the same laws as civilians. That's all very laudable but Gardaí often do not have that option. Even confining the use of the road traffic exemption to emergency situations would hamper the effectiveness of the force. Sitting in traffic instead of using a bus lane simply means no patrolling is being done. But this is a completely separate issue and you are just trying to join it in to enforce your point that there is abuse of power.

Should Gardaí be speeding when not on duty? No. Should they not use their knowledge of the law to avoid penalty points? Would you? Is it a disciplinary matter if they do? No. Is this indicative of a culture of abuse of power? No. Is it setting a bad example? When off duty who is it looking to them for example?

The problem with people like you is you have no idea what you want from a police force. You can spout all you want about setting an example by acting within the law like everyone else but the fact is that Gardaí are not subject to the same laws as civilians. They have many exemptions and powers which civilians do not and they require these to do their job. Simple as.

This is not about the use of official vehicles in the course of Garda duties - marked or unmarked.

Little CuChulainn

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Simple as more mealy-mouthed excuses.

Michael Clifford is absolutely right: the Gardai continue to miss the point. No surprise there, whatever about disappointment and frustration.

AFAIK nobody is talking about marked Garda vehicles using bus lanes while on patrol.

Your the one who brought up professionalism and setting a good example by driving within the law. This includes driving in bus lanes.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The "problem" with "people like me" is that we want a professional, effective and accountable police force. In my experience that does not go down well in some quarters, including this forum.

A noble goal. But when you get into the fine tuning of it, right down to the nitty gritty of day to day policing, it's just not possible to live up to your standards without providing sufficient manpower, equipment and resources. And I don't see your thread looking for those.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The words "friends" and "family" don't appear in the quoted statutes, though they do feature in the latest allegations:

I doubt they appear in the penalty points records either. More likely he went through the penalty point cancellations, breached the privacy of more people by looking up the registered owners of vehicles and assumed the registered owner was driving.

Five Lamps wrote: »

How can this extend to a Garda who is travelling to/from work? That is not in the course of duty no more than my commute to work is somehow in the course of my duties of employment. That needs to be dismantled immediately. BTW can you point to case law on this? I assume it's some very liberal interpretation.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/garda-in-fatal-crash-didnt-have-a-driving-licence-inquest-told-26582819.html

Travelling to court with a provisional licence expired three years previous and no permission to use his own vehicle. Still got off.

Five Lamps wrote: »

I thought simple errors were something that were correctable? Of course at this stage one has to wonder, if an actual ticket was written by another member if the error was deliberate.

The original ticket has to be cancelled and a new ticket must be issued, and this all must be done within 3 months of the original offence.

Five Lamps wrote: »

How does this explain friends and family being "sorted out"?

I've yet to see what evidence has been put forward about this. Like I said above, I think it's more an assumption based on the registered owner.

Five Lamps wrote: »

This is not about the use of official vehicles in the course of Garda duties - marked or unmarked.

The exemption doesn't apply to official vehicles, it applies to Gardaí. As an example, if I was driving off duty, in a private vehicle, and I saw a car driving dangerously ahead of me I would have no issue breaking the speed limit to get closer and get the reg for a follow up investigation. If, during that incident, I went through a speed trap I would have no issue claiming the benefit of the exemption afforded to member acting in the course of their duty.

Another question, how does he know the tickets were cancelled for friends and family? Or for serving members? There are members of the other emergency services who have received tickets that have been cancelled because they are in emergency service vehicles or responding to calls.

Has he breached data protection legislation to look up who the people are? I know I'd be in bother if I looked up something not related to my role /responsibilities/investigations.

Little CuChulainn

foreign wrote: »

Another question, how does he know the tickets were cancelled for friends and family? Or for serving members? There are members of the other emergency services who have received tickets that have been cancelled because they are in emergency service vehicles or responding to calls.

There's no way he can know without a lot of guesswork and assumption.

foreign wrote: »

Has he breached data protection legislation to look up who the people are? I know I'd be in bother if I looked up something not related to my role /responsibilities/investigations.

Everything he has done has breached the privacy of thousands but it has been overlooked because he did it for the greater good. I would be livid if I had been one of the people who's names he provided to third parties and I had done nothing wrong, especially in this second leak.

Little CuChulainn

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There's no way he can know without a lot of guesswork and assumption.



Everything he has done has breached the privacy of thousands but it has been overlooked because he did it for the greater good. I would be livid if I had been one of the people who's names he provided to third parties and I had done nothing wrong, especially in this second leak.

And there's the problem, last time out a hurler was wrongly identified because of his name being the same.

Little CuChulainn

foreign wrote: »

And there's the problem, last time out a hurler was wrongly identified because of his name being the same.

It's sickening how easily people will discard the right to privacy and due process when the chance to get a shot at a Garda comes in.

TheNog

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The "problem" with "people like me" is that we want a professional, effective and accountable police force. In my experience that does not go down well in some quarters, including this forum.

I tend to agree that you don't really understand what you want from AGS.

Professional:
I believe we already have a professional police force that has regularly scored high in public satisfaction surveys and with a good detection/conviction rates.

Efficient:
Very difficult to be as efficient as possible right now because we are operating below the red line of 13,000. Also due to the cutbacks there is a significant reduction in investment for IT systems, overtime, courses, equipment etc

Accountability:
After the first round of FCPS claims a number of senior Gardai have already been disciplined.

Sgt McCabe has raised more questions which at this stage are only claims neither proven nor unproven right now.

Iwannahurl

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

A noble goal. But when you get into the fine tuning of it, right down to the nitty gritty of day to day policing, it's just not possible to live up to your standards without providing sufficient manpower, equipment and resources. And I don't see your thread looking for those.

My experience of the everyday nitty gritty is that the availability of resources (personnel, equipment) doesn't necessarily make a difference to the standards of traffic policing.

I frequently encounter pairs of Gardai chatting as they stroll nonchalantly past dangerously parked vehicles, for example, entirely oblivious to the risks for pedestrians (18% of fatalities so far this year are lowly foot-sloggers). I have seen Traffic Corps vehicles travelling way above the speed limit on urban 50 km/h roads where they were supposed to be present in order to deter speeding. I recall attending a "road safety" promotion a couple of years ago where road traffic law enforcement was non-existent before, during and after the event itself, but where the Traffic Corps were able to commit several shiny vehicles to a static display over several hours for PR purposes. Only a few weeks ago I watched while a Traffic Corps Garda obstructed a pedestrian island with his motorbike, and then spent the next 15 minutes chatting to a friend while traffic was in chaos all around him and pedestrians, including children and older people unsteady on their feet, were trying to cross the road unaided through heavy traffic that would not stop for them.

The resources excuse also does not explain why AGS (Traffic Corps included) do not consistently enforce the law when they are present while road traffic offences are being committed, nor does it explain the new allegations currently being aired in the national media.

Little CuChulainn

Iwannahurl wrote: »

My experience of the everyday nitty gritty is that the availability of resources (personnel, equipment) doesn't necessarily make a difference to the standards of traffic policing.

I frequently encounter pairs of Gardai chatting as they stroll nonchalantly past dangerously parked vehicles, for example, entirely oblivious to the risks for pedestrians (18% of fatalities so far this year are lowly foot-sloggers). I have seen Traffic Corps vehicles travelling way above the speed limit on urban 50 km/h roads where they were supposed to be present in order to deter speeding. I recall attending a "road safety" promotion a couple of years ago where road traffic law enforcement was non-existent before, during and after the event itself, but where the Traffic Corps were able to commit several shiny vehicles to a static display over several hours for PR purposes. Only a few weeks ago I watched while a Traffic Corps Garda obstructed a pedestrian island with his motorbike, and then spent the next 15 minutes chatting to a friend while traffic was in chaos all around him and pedestrians, including children and older people unsteady on their feet, were trying to cross the road unaided through heavy traffic that would not stop for them.

The resources excuse also does not explain why AGS (Traffic Corps included) do not consistently enforce the law when they are present while road traffic offences are being committed, nor does it explain the new allegations currently being aired in the national media.

I'd be very curious to know how you knew they had not already ticketed the car, or how you knew it was a friend he was talking to and not someone being questioned or assisted. How do you know the traffic car that was speeding is not going to assist someone. The fact is you don't, you just see what you want to see and interpret it to suit your existing view. You think those traffic cops wanted to be at some Road Safety exhibition wasting their time for PR? Gardaí don't give a **** about PR. It's exercises like that that contribute to the wasted resources.

Iwannahurl

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I'd be very curious to know how you knew they had not already ticketed the car [1], or how you knew it was a friend he was talking to and not someone being questioned or assisted [2]. How do you know the traffic car that was speeding is not going to assist someone. [3] The fact is you don't, you just see what you want to see and interpret it to suit your existing view. You think those traffic cops wanted to be at some Road Safety exhibition wasting their time for PR? Gardaí don't give a **** about PR. It's exercises like that that contribute to the wasted resources.[4]

[1] They routinely pass by such situations without interrupting their chat or pausing to take a note of reg numbers. When I asked a Sergeant on one occasion whether she was going to write registration numbers in her notebook she got very irritated and accused me of being "smart". When I replied that no, I just wanted a bit of accountability, she made a silent gesture indicating that I should leave, then walked off with the colleague she had been chatting to.

[2] It was a friendly chat with someone attending the event, and all the indications were that they knew each other. The TC motorbike was parked across a small pedestrian island, and all around there was the usual parking and traffic chaos associated with such events in Ireland, none of which attracted the attention of the three TC members "policing" the event.

[3] If the TC jeep was speeding to an emergency it ought to have its blue lights on at least, preferably a siren as well, to warn people to get out of the way as it approached a roundabout in a residential area at a speed substantially in excess of the 50 km/h urban speed limit.

[4] I agree that AGS members care little for Public Relations, and that tying up several TC vehicles for hours at a time at PR events is very unproductive. But AGS could still have managed that event differently. They chose not to.

All these details are OT, of course, but the general message is that alleged lack of resources does not explain, or excuse, lack of professionalism or inappropriate use of resources.

Little CuChulainn

Iwannahurl wrote: »

[1] They routinely pass by such situations without interrupting their chat or pausing to take a note of reg numbers. When I asked a Sergeant on one occasion whether she was going to write registration numbers in her notebook she got very irritated and accused me of being "smart". When I replied that no, I just wanted a bit of accountability, she made a silent gesture indicating that I should leave, then walked off with the colleague she had been chatting to.

But again, you have no idea how many times they have passed that vehicle before. You don't know if someone else has ticketed. You don't know if they have allowed parking there for some other reason.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

[2] It was a friendly chat with someone attending the event, and all the indications were that they knew each other. The TC motorbike was parked across a small pedestrian island, and all around there was the usual parking and traffic chaos associated with such events in Ireland, none of which attracted the attention of the three TC members "policing" the event.

I don't know what kind of event you're talking about. If there isn't a specific traffic management plan in place Gardaí will generally allow the event organisers to manage traffic and will only intervene if there is a situation which requires their attention.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

[3] If the TC jeep was speeding to an emergency it ought to have its blue lights on at least, preferably a siren as well, to warn people to get out of the way as it approached a roundabout in a residential area at a speed substantially in excess of the 50 km/h urban speed limit.

Blue lights and sirens are not used int he way you believe they ought to be. There are regulations for using them, regulations that you clearly don't know.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

[4] I agree that AGS members care little for Public Relations, and that tying up several TC vehicles for hours at a time at PR events is very unproductive. But AGS could still have managed that event differently. They chose not to.

You're treating the organisation like it's one entity whereas Gardaí have no actual input on management. But you'll blame them anyway.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

All these details are OT, of course, but the general message is that alleged lack of resources does not explain, or excuse, lack of professionalism or inappropriate use of resources.

I think I see what the issue is here. You get annoyed when things don't go perfectly and orderly. Your idea of professionalism is not based on how Gardaí do their job, because you don't know what their job is. Your idea of professionalism is based on how orderly, neat and perfect things are. Gardaí can allow people to park on double yellows, and they can speed without using sirens and they can park where they need to. It might not seem fair or by the book to you but that's just the way it is. If you want to make an issue of every little thing you see then you go ahead and call GSOC. I'd give you the number but I have a feeling that isn't necessary.

Iwannahurl

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

But again, you have no idea how many times they have passed that vehicle before. You don't know if someone else has ticketed. You don't know if they have allowed parking there for some other reason.

I don't know what kind of event you're talking about. If there isn't a specific traffic management plan in place Gardaí will generally allow the event organisers to manage traffic and will only intervene if there is a situation which requires their attention.

Blue lights and sirens are not used int he way you believe they ought to be. There are regulations for using them, regulations that you clearly don't know.

You're treating the organisation like it's one entity whereas Gardaí have no actual input on management. But you'll blame them anyway.

I think I see what the issue is here. You get annoyed when things don't go perfectly and orderly. Your idea of professionalism is not based on how Gardaí do their job, because you don't know what their job is. Your idea of professionalism is based on how orderly, neat and perfect things are. Gardaí can allow people to park on double yellows, and they can speed without using sirens and they can park where they need to. It might not seem fair or by the book to you but that's just the way it is. If you want to make an issue of every little thing you see then you go ahead and call GSOC. I'd give you the number but I have a feeling that isn't necessary.

I know what I know, as a former Justice minister once said. I know because I was there, and am there. You weren't there, so you don't know.

You know a lot of excuses though, which brings us back to the topic of this thread. The Examiner articles have a lot to say about AGS expertise with devising new excuses for all sorts of things.

It's not called law and order for nothing, but a martian would be excused for wondering whether such a term applies in this country at all, because there are so many situations that don't appear to merit Garda attention. Basically we have a police force which pretty much does at it pleases, with little in the way of accountability. As for calling the GSOC, that's pretty much the standard response, sooner or later, in this forum. Same attitude as IRL: if you don't like it, hump off, because we don't care and there's nothing you can do about it.

Let's see whether the latest GSOC enquiry finds anything of substance in the latest allegations. In the meantime, keep the excuses coming because you never know, a choice quote or two might emerge. I have a collection of them at this stage.

bravestar

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I have a collection of them at this stage.

I guess stamp collecting is a thing of the past. Nice to see you have a hobby though.

Sierra Oscar

foreign wrote: »

Another question, how does he know the tickets were cancelled for friends and family? Or for serving members?

This was covered on RTÉ's drivetime report on the issue yesterday. The following was said by the reporter:

"As I understand it from talking to a number of guards today the cancellation system is still open to possible abuse, abuse that is audit proof, and it would take a guard to recognize how it is being abused rather than someone auditing centrally. It would take a guard in the same station as the inspector who was doing the cancelling to recognize what is being done and then they would have to make a claim against their commanding officer. Because the reason for a cancellation can be doctored and presented to make it look genuine when it is of course far from genuine and it would only be spotted by someone with immediate knowledge of the people who were involved in doing the cancelling and for whom they were doing it. As I said I have talked to a few of the sort of younger generation Gardai today and they tell me that not only can it be done but it is still being done."

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/drivetime/

Under "Penalty Points".

If you read between the lines it is probably the case that Gardai in individual stations came to McCabe with information and he checked that information, that a Garda in a certain station would only be aware of, against Pulse. This will all prove very tricky **if** proved true. Surely it is a criminal offense to enter false information into the PULSE system?

Little CuChulainn

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This was covered on RTÉ's drivetime report on the issue yesterday. The following was said by the reporter:



http://www.rte.ie/radio1/drivetime/

Under "Penalty Points".

If you read between the lines it is probably the case that Gardai in individual stations came to him with information and he checked that information, that a Garda in a certain station would only be aware of, against Pulse. This will all prove very tricky **if** proved true. Surely it is a criminal offense to enter false information into the PULSE system?

It's kind of redundant though because the inspector would be breaking the rules by cancelling the points anyway.

Iwannahurl

bravestar wrote: »

I guess stamp collecting is a thing of the past. Nice to see you have a hobby though.

For some people "policing" seems to be a hobby. Certainly not a job with a public service remit.

At least in my case my 'work' is voluntary, and costs the State (aka the taxpayer) nothing.

Adults playing with toy guns -- now that's a hobby worth pursuing...

Little CuChulainn

Iwannahurl wrote: »

For some people "policing" seems to be a hobby.

They are easily recognised by their insistence on telling actual police how they should do their job to their standard.

Iwannahurl

No, the ones I see are paid from the public purse but do little to earn it. It would appear to be some form of pastime, with the added attraction of a State salary.

bravestar

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Adults playing with toy guns -- now that's a hobby worth pursuing...

Lol, is that meant to be a dig beacause I did some airsofting a few years ago? Was great fun! As is paint ball. But then the hunting took over and sure I can't pay for it all. You should try it some time, fun I mean!

Five Lamps

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I've yet to see what evidence has been put forward about this. Like I said above, I think it's more an assumption based on the registered owner.

You have a great ability to quote edge cases. What is the liklihood of this happening? Very low.

The exemption doesn't apply to official vehicles, it applies to Gardaí. As an example, if I was driving off duty, in a private vehicle, and I saw a car driving dangerously ahead of me I would have no issue breaking the speed limit to get closer and get the reg for a follow up investigation. If, during that incident, I went through a speed trap I would have no issue claiming the benefit of the exemption afforded to member acting in the course of their duty.

Absolutely no problem with this if it happens. But in reality the probability of a Garda actually doing this is next to none and to be actually caught in, say, a speed trap is even lower again.

The real stinker in all of this is the consistent refusal of Gardai to admit that this behaviour is wrong and needs to end. Instead we get continuous edge cases being trotted out as common incidences justifying more bad behaviour.

However, I will grant you one thing. The public are also complicit in this. If there were no friends and family asking for points to be quashed then there would be less of a scandal. All you'd be left with is the genuine cases that you state are common.

Iwannahurl

TheNog wrote: »

I tend to agree that you don't really understand what you want from AGS.

Professional:
I believe we already have a professional police force that has regularly scored high in public satisfaction surveys and with a good detection/conviction rates.

Efficient:
Very difficult to be as efficient as possible right now because we are operating below the red line of 13,000. Also due to the cutbacks there is a significant reduction in investment for IT systems, overtime, courses, equipment etc

Accountability:
After the first round of FCPS claims a number of senior Gardai have already been disciplined.

Sgt McCabe has raised more questions which at this stage are only claims neither proven nor unproven right now.

I missed the above post earlier.

You don't really understand what I understand by professional policing.

Irish policing culture may well score highly in in the Irish cultural context. My impression (and my experience in Ireland compared with necessarily limited experience in other countries) is that we Irish do not like enforcement. That is certainly the case in relation to traffic law.

Abuses of the Penalty Points system -- established and alleged -- emanate from that culture, imo. Our system has long been run on a clientelist grace and favour basis, and in that context getting things like Penalty Points fixed by someone you know on the inside is as natural to some people as breathing.

That culture is slowly and painfully changing, as new institutions such as GSOC and the Garda Inspectorate exert their influence. However, it seems clear that progress is not steady and predictable.

I still do not accept the resources excuse. The Pulse system is a resource. Is it being used properly? Sgt McCabe would probably say "absolutely not".

Iwannahurl

Five Lamps wrote: »

The public are also complicit in this. If there were no friends and family asking for points to be quashed then there would be less of a scandal. All you'd be left with is the genuine cases that you state are common.

Hear hear. It takes two to tango, as the cliche goes, and all this monkeying with Penalty Points would not occur if there wasn't a cute hoor culture enabling it, inside and outside the force.

Little CuChulainn

Five Lamps wrote: »

You have a great ability to quote edge cases. What is the liklihood of this happening? Very low.

Of what happening? I'm not sure how your question relates to the part you are quoting. If you are asking what the likelihood is of assumption being used to link the drivers to Gardaí as friends and family the answer is very high. That information wouldn't be on PULSE

Five Lamps wrote: »

Absolutely no problem with this if it happens. But in reality the probability of a Garda actually doing this is next to none and to be actually caught in, say, a speed trap is even lower again.

Why?

Five Lamps wrote: »

The real stinker in all of this is the consistent refusal of Gardai to admit that this behaviour is wrong and needs to end. Instead we get continuous edge cases being trotted out as common incidences justifying more bad behaviour.

What behaviour is wrong? Speeding while not in the course of duty and having the points wiped? Has anyone defended that? Please quote where they have. What's wrong is the condemnation of a force with no evidence of wrong doing whatsoever.