RTPI and 'missing' busses

smellmepower

RTPI for the 76 in Clondalkin Village this morning was stuck on 3 mins for over ten minutes before the bus eventually showed up. Rushed to get to the stop in time for absolutely nothing.

Yesterday afternoon at Liffey Valley the RTPI for a 76 counted from 15min to due and just disappeared off the list.Was waiting from 15:20 to 16:10 for the next one, which was packed of course.

Such an annoying system.

KD345

smellmepower wrote: »

RTPI for the 76 in Clondalkin Village this morning was stuck on 3 mins for over ten minutes before the bus eventually showed up. Rushed to get to the stop in time for absolutely nothing.

Yesterday afternoon at Liffey Valley the RTPI for a 76 counted from 15min to due and just disappeared off the list.Was waiting from 15:20 to 16:10 for the next one, which was packed of course.

Such an annoying system.

It sounds like something delayed your bus this morning at a previous stop. Possibly heavy traffic or a problem with a passenger.

A 76 broke down yesterday and the 15:20 from Chapelizod couldn't operate.

smellmepower

I know it sometimes gets delayed crossing the Belgard to Fonthill at Newlands, but 10 minutes is a bit much. Surely the GPS would refresh the buses location to the RTPI system more than once in 10 minutes?

LXFlyer

smellmepower wrote: »

I know it sometimes gets delayed crossing the Belgard to Fonthill at Newlands, but 10 minutes is a bit much. Surely the GPS would refresh the buses location to the RTPI system more than once in 10 minutes?

I think the point is that the RTPI schedule would have shown it as taking 3 minutes to get from where it was to Clondalkin Village, but that the bus got blocked for whatever reason - it will still show three minutes as the computer system can't tell how long a blockage is going to take to clear.

syklops

When I was involved in speccing and delivering an RTPI system in the UK, we got round the predicted / scheduled conundrum by showing sheduled times as such (eg 12:25), and predicted ones as a countdown (eg 5 mins). This was explained on stop information. The customers knew therefore that a predicted bus was definitely on the way, whereas a scheduled one may or may not be.

The problem with the latter is that, unless the system is monitored continuously, there is no way of the system knowing whether it is a fault on the bus, driver incorrectly signed in or the bus not being present. Hence, unless you pay someone to sit there and manually update, "Bus Cancelled" messages for individual journeys are impractical.

Its disheartening to hear someone who had a hand in delivering a system like this say there is no way of building in fault tolerance and error checking into a system such as this.

Why can't each bus automatically check in at each stop on the route, meaning the system has an up to date record of where each bus is?

Real time information planners have been deployed in cities much bigger and much smaller than Dublin/Galway and some are highly accurate. Part of the problem is as Mrs O'Bumble points out its not really a Real Time Planner, its really just a digital representation of the timetable.

I also don't buy this "The driver didnt properly sign in to the ticketing machine" story.

bk

syklops I'm afraid you are mistaken about all that.

The buses actually do constantly communicate their current location via GPS and the mobile networks to the central RTPI servers.

However what is then shown on the RTPI screens is a mix of an estimate based on the timetable, the buses current location and an algorithm that predicts arrival.

I think it is better for RTPI to say the bus will come in 3 minutes and have it turn up in 10 minutes then the other way around! It is hard for RTPI to predict the arrival time when it is due to an unexpected blockage.

For instance in this case the bus might be 3 minutes away per the schedule and usual traffic for that time of day, but the bus might be stuck behind a road accident for 10 minutes. There is no way RTPI can tell this and deal with this in any other way then saying the bus is 3 minutes away.

What I do have a problem with is:

- Ghost buses, buses which say they are arriving now, but never turn up.
- Wrong bus route shown. No a 16C isn't a 16!

These are problems caused by Dublin Bus management and controllers and shows a simple lack of professionalism. They should never happen.

cdebru

syklops wrote: »

Its disheartening to hear someone who had a hand in delivering a system like this say there is no way of building in fault tolerance and error checking into a system such as this.

Why can't each bus automatically check in at each stop on the route, meaning the system has an up to date record of where each bus is?

Real time information planners have been deployed in cities much bigger and much smaller than Dublin/Galway and some are highly accurate. Part of the problem is as Mrs O'Bumble points out its not really a Real Time Planner, its really just a digital representation of the timetable.

I also don't buy this "The driver didnt properly sign in to the ticketing machine" story.

Your problem is you are not really thinking about what RTPI is and how it can be delivered, just real time information is useless, and you are incorrect it is not a representation of the timetable, it is not just real time either, it is a mixture of both as well as trying to predict how long it will take a bus to get to a particular point while taking into account all the possible variables, like traffic, passenger loading, how fast slow the driver is, roadworks, accidents etc etc etc.
For what it is and does I find it an excellent system and a vast improvement on what we had before which was guess how long a bus will take yourself.
Could it be improved? yes like I said a map option on the Dublin bus app that showed you actual location would be a huge benefit.
Differentiate when they are using "real" time and "expected" time based on the timetable.
Give information when a bus is removed, just a couple of words, mechanical breakdown, traffic incident, passenger incident, no staff etc whatever it is.

Lastly give the controllers a kick in the arse so they update the system, if they know a bus is due in 10 minutes at the terminus but is 20 minutes away on a previous journey then it should be removed at that stage not let it continue to count down only to disappear off the system.
I would suggest that people actually complain when the RTPI let's them down at least that way the ones that are just someone not doing their job can be addressed, if no one says anything the people in charge presume its all good.

cdebru

bk wrote: »

syklops I'm afraid you are mistaken about all that.

The buses actually do constantly communicate their current location via GPS and the mobile networks to the central RTPI servers.

However what is then shown on the RTPI screens is a mix of an estimate based on the timetable, the buses current location and an algorithm that predicts arrival.

I think it is better for RTPI to say the bus will come in 3 minutes and have it turn up in 10 minutes then the other way around! It is hard for RTPI to predict the arrival time when it is due to an unexpected blockage.

For instance in this case the bus might be 3 minutes away per the schedule and usual traffic for that time of day, but the bus might be stuck behind a road accident for 10 minutes. There is no way RTPI can tell this and deal with this in any other way then saying the bus is 3 minutes away.

What I do have a problem with is:

- Ghost buses, buses which say they are arriving now, but never turn up.
- Wrong bus route shown. No a 16C isn't a 16!

These are problems caused by Dublin Bus management and controllers and shows a simple lack of professionalism. They should never happen.

Agree 100%

But it should also be possible to communicate with passengers via the RTPI so if there is an accident in Fairview the RTPI screens further along the routes affected could display that information a simple "accident Fairview expect delays" would be better than staying stuck on 3 minutes for 10 minutes.

smellmepower

bk wrote: »

syklops I'm afraid you are mistaken about all that.

The buses actually do constantly communicate their current location via GPS and the mobile networks to the central RTPI servers.

However what is then shown on the RTPI screens is a mix of an estimate based on the timetable, the buses current location and an algorithm that predicts arrival.

I think it is better for RTPI to say the bus will come in 3 minutes and have it turn up in 10 minutes then the other way around! It is hard for RTPI to predict the arrival time when it is due to an unexpected blockage.

For instance in this case the bus might be 3 minutes away per the schedule and usual traffic for that time of day, but the bus might be stuck behind a road accident for 10 minutes. There is no way RTPI can tell this and deal with this in any other way then saying the bus is 3 minutes away.

What I do have a problem with is:

- Ghost buses, buses which say they are arriving now, but never turn up.
- Wrong bus route shown. No a 16C isn't a 16!

These are problems caused by Dublin Bus management and controllers and shows a simple lack of professionalism. They should never happen.

The reverse you mentioned has happened to me before too. IE: I've left the house with the RTPI app saying bus is 10 mins away only to double check it as I'm walking and see it has dropped to 2 mins, and I either have to sprint to the stop, or miss it and wait for another.

Its not a reliable system, and seems like a massive waste of money to come up with what is essentially a fancy guesstimate of the timetable.

Only way I'll actually trust it is when its possible to view your chosen buses location in proper real time on a map. Why isn't this possible now?

syklops

My problem is I can't trust the RTPI system because it is wrong 50% of the time. Thats my number 1 problem.

devnull

Unfortunately the system does not posses a crystal ball.

MOH

cdebru wrote: »

Your problem is you are not really thinking about what RTPI is and how it can be delivered, just real time information is useless, and you are incorrect it is not a representation of the timetable, it is not just real time either, it is a mixture of both

The problem being that it's called "Real time", which gives people the not unreasonable expectation that it actually is.
The DB website states "Updates are usually received from the vehicle location system at 30 second intervals, so information on the signs is regularly updated".
And yes, I know it says "usually", and it doesn't actually say the sign is accurate to within 30 seconds, but that is the impression it gives.
and again, the fact it refers to 2011 as being in the future shows how often it's updated for accuracy.

cdebru wrote: »

But it should also be possible to communicate with passengers via the RTPI so if there is an accident in Fairview the RTPI screens further along the routes affected could display that information a simple "accident Fairview expect delays" would be better than staying stuck on 3 minutes for 10 minutes.

This, definitely.

devnull wrote: »

Unfortunately the system does not posses a crystal ball.

No, but it would help if it made better use of the data available to it.
By this stage it should have a wealth of information about bus movements at various times of day, various times of year. It should be primarily using that over the kind of intermediate timetable information that would have been necessary when the system was launched.
If there's multiple buses serving a route, or a stretch of one, and they're all being delayed, or even running slower than usual, around the same location, then chances are there's a traffic issue which should be detectable.

expectationlost

search is so bad on this site I can't find the more recent thread on this topic

NTA tendering for a new bus-tracking system to tackle “ghost buses” and “disappearing buses”

https://dublininquirer.com/2024/09/25/new-bus-tracking-system-to-tackle-ghost-buses-and-disappearing-buses/

Disappearing buses are created when a bus is cancelled, but someone at one of the bus companies doesn’t tell the real-time passenger information system that,

said

Transport Minister Eamon Ryan

what is the incentive to misinform and piss off customers?

actua11

How common is is for drivers to miss out stops or sections of a route? A couple times in the past two weeks, I've been on buses where the driver has missed a turn, and taken a detour to link back up later on the route, missing out several stops in between.

I know the potential new system show be much more accurate with this, but in such situations as this now, or maybe a break down, is it simply that the operator is not updating information on a service they know won't arrive to the RTPI system?

If a train (similar to everyday things like a parcel delivery) suffers a cancellation, that information is displayed to passengers and info updated online. I am not sure why a bus service would not do similar, without needing to rely on live route tracking?

halfpastneverr

RTPI down since this morning. Go Ahead back working correctly since this afternoon. But DB services still not showing correctly at all. Bustimes is showing some DB routes, but they are completely out of sync, don't have fleet or reg number and aren't updating location frequently, making it useless for tracking your bus.

So frustrating how often DB's RTPI falls down. Happens each month and is never fixed with any urgency. Such a basic thing to expect to function properly in 2024. 'Scheduled' is no use to anyone trying to get to/from work.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122805547#Comment_122805547

No BE Galway city services were showing on BusTimes this (Tuesday) morning either. Not sure if it got better during the day.

Citrus_8

Bus drivers veer towards dispute with bosses

https://dublininquirer.com/2024/11/06/bus-drivers-veer-towards-dispute-with-bosses/

markpb

Jesus H. Christ - what a barmy thing to have industrial action over! Drive the bus according to the timetable. If the bus ends up being late and the next duty is cancelled, that's not the drivers fault.

If the network is moving towards a connection-based one, it's more important than ever for buses not to run ahead of schedule.

I hope we're not going to see a reoccurrence of drivers deciding how the service should be operated, to the detriment of passengers.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122815277#Comment_122815277

I think that part of the problem is how realistic or otherwise the running times are - some of them have been and are far too generous to avoid penalties for being late.

The W4 was left unchanged for well over a year with ludicrously generous running times, especially across the M50, which led to buses departing Blanchardstown 5 mins late and crawling along the M50 before sitting at Liffey Valley until the departure time for that stop.

The timetable needs to be achievable but not overly generous - otherwise we end up with frustration all around.

StreetLight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122815277#Comment_122815277

Would you ever cool the jets. Those days are over and you know it.

I'm certain Dublin Bus has some sort of policy in place that aims to train drivers on how to minimise and manage distractions during driving. However the presence of this tracking device seemingly constantly blipping away in the cab doesn't seem to me to be doing any favours towards minimising those distractions.

It seems to me that drivers are frustrated by their controllers sitting behind monitors being unaware of the real world. It all adds up to conflict: the controllers want the bus to stop while passengers want it to go. Drivers are in the middle of it all and suffering abuse by passengers who just don't understand or want to understand why their bus is deliberately stopping at empty bus stops, or deliberately driving slowly.

Dublin Bus should put up an FAQ section on their website, explaining how buses need to stop on occasion to maintain the schedule.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122815857#Comment_122815857

Funny thing is if I'm not mistaken the controllers in DB all would've started out as drivers so you'd think they'd all be well aware of the stresses that drivers face.

I notice Go-Ahead drivers don't seem to have the radio going off in the cab near as often as DB drivers do. They appear to only use the radio in an emergency.

TranslatorPS

The primary problem here is that passengers in Dublin aren't used to having intermediate timings – they only first appeared in 2018 with Go-Ahead. The concept of having a predefined departure and arrival time along the entire route is still only gaining root in Dublin's bus users' minds – while a good half of mainland Europe either actively expects it or takes it for granted. It's time to catch up if Dublin wants its network to work.

AX636

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122815277#Comment_122815277

I was driving the 15B last week and at a certain stop in Ballyboden I was -2 and then at the next stop I was +10 it's crazy. Then you have certain controller's screaming at you that your ahead every few minutes. I got the time down to +5 but when I got to the next stop it was +8

The amount of abuse I'm getting of passengers over this, I try to explain to them but they don't want to know

AX636

The radio system are different DB use the foot switch and GAI use a button on the pressing box

markpb

The Lynx bus service in Orange co, Florida had a system like this well over a decade ago. An automated announcement was played when the driver was instructed to wait at a stop. Seems like a very simple thing to do which would reduce the amount of whinging at drivers.

Apologies if my earlier post was excessively harsh. I understand the grief that drivers must get but I wouldn’t want to see a positive change to Dublin’s bus service go away because it was implemented badly and the only recourse by drivers was to ignore it.

halfpastneverr

Dublin Bus do play the automated 'will be a short delay in order to regulate the service' message but regular passengers like myself know these delays are pointless because the bus is just going to get caught in traffic up ahead and be late again anyway. Happens often enough on services that use Naas Road/Bluebell/Inchicore Village. Traffic will be inexplicably light on the Naas Road where the M50 slip road merges opposite Red Cow and the bus will sail down the bus lane instead of being stuck for ages in traffic. Will get to the Kylemore Road stop at McDonalds there and sit for a few mins, but then will get caught in traffic all the way from Bluebell to past Inchicore Village when the bus lane disappears. Thats what is so frustrating, no common sense applied!

I've noticed that the more experienced drivers on my route rarely do this stoppage, its generally the new/more inexperienced drivers, who are presumably afraid to get in trouble while on probation or whatever.

Red Silurian

Happens in Limerick all the time. I find if the screen says "X min" (as in, it's a number of minutes away) it's more than likely going to arrive but if it says "Due XX:XX" (as in, a clock time) it's probably not going to show