RTPI and 'missing' busses

LXFlyer

Random_Name wrote: »

Nope, that was another poster. I actually hadn't specified the route. For the record it is the 130 from Abbey Street, operating from its normal (new) stop with no diversions

Apologies - well the second half of my point stands - it requires the bus to be "live" - i.e. the driver to be signed in on the ticket machine.

LXFlyer

km991148 wrote: »

But thats the point.. (I mentioned the 15a, but I am now talking the 65b)

I got the 2nd bus of the day at a time with no traffic.. the rTPI reported the same times as the timetable and it was still wrong - misreporting a guess then nothing.

I also have a suspicion that the bus that passed me (entering service) was seen at the destination after arrived by taxi - i.e. it just drove straight there - but I am only 90% sure on this..

I can't really comment on that specific issue - I can only tell you what I've gathered from observing the system over the recent years in general - you'd need to bring it up with Dublin Bus.


Send them an email with the specific times/date and details to customercomment@dublinbus.ie

Avada

lxflyer wrote: »

Apologies - well the second half of my point stands - it requires the bus to be "live" - i.e. the driver to be signed in on the ticket machine.

My understanding is it doesn't and thats also what I got from your post (#20). My understanding is it goes by the timetable until the bus driver signs on, and then goes live.

If it were as you have said, terminus stops would have no buses on RTPI while the buses sit (not live) on Talbot Street.

I believe that there is not valid reason for buses to be missing, just a bad system

ETA: Also, I have brought this up with Dublin Bus, along with a complaint about shutting down RTPI during rush hour for testing, just got the usual PR guff

LXFlyer

Random_Name wrote: »

My understanding is it doesn't and thats also what I got from your post (#20). My understanding is it goes by the timetable until the bus driver signs on, and then goes live.

If it were as you have said, terminus stops would have no buses on RTPI while the buses sit (not live) on Talbot Street.

I believe that there is not valid reason for buses to be missing, just a bad system

ETA: Also, I have brought this up with Dublin Bus, along with a complaint about shutting down RTPI during rush hour for testing, just got the usual PR guff

Read my original post again - it will read predictive times from the schedule until about two minutes prior to departure. It will then switch to the bus. If the bus driver has not signed in on the ticket machine at that point, then the bus will vanish from RTPI.

That's what I meant.

Otherwise, it could be a case of defective GPS equipment on the bus.

I don't recall them switching RTPI down for testing at rush hour, well certainly not a planned shut down - are you sure that it hadn't maybe crashed? They usually do any testing during the mid-morning - they need to do it when buses are on the road to verify that it is working correctly.

Avada

lxflyer wrote: »

Read my post again - it will read predictive times from the schedule until about two minutes prior to departure. It will then switch to the bus. If the bus driver has not signed in on the ticket machine at that point, then the bus will vanish from RTPI.


That's what I meant.


Otherwise, it could be a case of defective GPS equipment on the bus.

I understand what you are saying now. But I still disagree, I'm talking about buses not due for between 5-15 minutes

LXFlyer

Random_Name wrote: »

I understand what you are saying now. But I still disagree, I'm talking about buses not due for between 5-15 minutes

And are those buses still showing up?

Avada

lxflyer wrote: »

And are those buses still showing up?

Yes, the buses nearly always arrive at the timetabled time

LXFlyer

Random_Name wrote: »

Yes, the buses nearly always arrive at the timetabled time

Well that's odd - it shouldn't be happening.


I don't know why that is taking place.

Avada

lxflyer wrote: »

Well that's odd - it shouldn't be happening.


I don't know why that is taking place.

Neither do I (and I'm not sure Dublin Bus or the NTA know either)

SpaceTime

I nearly missed a flight in Belgium because of this.

I was waiting at a bus stop outside the European Commission for the 21 bus that goes to Brussels airport.

The sign said one was due in 9 mins.

Then after 9 mins ... No bus.

Then a message about Heures théoriques scrolled up meaning it was just making up arrival times based on a schedule.

It turned out it was a public holiday but the signs were running weekday timetable.

48 mins late, a lot of irritated Germans and Dutch board the bus cursing Belgian chaotic systems.

Nobody really understood what the significance of "times may be theoretical" meant until the bus didn't arrive.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

Well in the first case it's up to the controller to decide what to do next - either cancel the service altogether or operate a curtailed version along part of the route. No system can account for that as it requires human intervention.

No system can account for it but if the system knew about related departures, it could warn controllers and public alike that delays on the subsequent departure are likely.

n97 mini

Heroditas wrote: »

Yeah definitely agree with you. It happens a lot when I'm getting those buses from Willsbrook or Woodies heading into town.

Yes, agree with that. RTPI could say 50 mins to next bus when between the A and B there should be a bus every 15 mins.

Mrs OBumble

lxflyer wrote: »

Well reading your first line, you are saying that the predictive times that BE have come up with are wrong - therefore the prediction is incorrect in the first place.

Again, the times should be real time - that's what the operator has contracted to provide - as far as the NTA is concerned that's what they should be doing.

If that is not happening (and clearly it is not) I would be suggesting that you write a well phrased letter to both Bus Eireann in Galway and the NTA.

That's why as I've said your issue in the first instance is with Bus Eireann, and not the NTA.

I really don't give a rat's arse about the predictions.

I just expect an app that says it is providing real-time information to do just that - at very least for buses which have left their terminus and are travelling towards me.

This includes showing the best estimate of when the bus will reach me, based on the actual time that it last transmitted data (I'd expect that to be once a minute) and the timetable predictions.

Frankly, as a private citizen, I don't see it as my responsibility to be a data-collection agent for BE. The times here are so off that they MUST know about it already, unless they're blind!

cdebru

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I've looked at their predictive times. Agree it's BEs dumbness that has the same inter-stop times at all times.

But it's the NTA's app that is saying "real time" when the data they are showing is purely predictive.

I repeat - I don't have a problem with their predictions. I do have a problem with the app saying "real time" when it absolutely isn't anything resembling real.

I presume, BE system is the same as DB in which case it is real time, but with a predictive element where a bus hasn't started a journey but is due to start a journey which is based on the timetable.

So if bus X is due to leave Galway at 10:30 it will show up on the real times further along the route an expected arrival based on the 10:30 being correct and predicted times to each stop, but once the bus actually starts the journey then it switches to real time based on where the bus is now.

It has to work this way as if it relied completely on real time it could only start to work once the bus had started the journey, meaning you would get zero information in this case until 10:30 if you are at a stop 2 minutes up the road the information would be no buses due then 2 minutes before it arrives it would start working, which would obviously be useless.

This works fine for most departures but falls down if for example the bus due to operate the 10:30 hasn't arrived in Galway by 10:30 then you get the countdown and then it disappears.

cdebru

km991148 wrote: »

Anyone notice buses dropping off the RTPI?

I have noticed this in the past - but standing at a stop this morning and 65b did not come (an entering service bus did however..)

RTPI showed it comming at 7.12.. then.. nothing..

In taxi now - another 20 quid gone grr..

No information was better than wrong information.

Actually sounds like the 65b may have arrived but was not displaying it's destination, it can happen for various reasons faulty destination display, faulty ticket machine, sometimes even if the bus has a mechanical problem, cuts out and is restarted it can blank the destination , or if a ticket machine goes tits up there is no on off switch so the only way to restart it is to turn off the bus remove all power, this blanks the destination screen, it should return when the ticket machine restarts but sometimes they don't.
The driver is not permitted to get out and check the destination screen without turning of the engine, which will blank the screen and make it pointless to get out and check anyway. ( there is a small LCD behind the driver that says what the front is supposed to be showing but they don't always match up)

Just a suggestion if it happens again stick your hand out for the bus entering service if it is the 65b it will stop ( tell him he has no scrolls), if it isn't nothing lost anyway, not ideal but you might save yourself €20.

km991148

so.. next morning.. get up 1/2 an hour early to get the earlier 65b (after yesterdays mess).. get to the bus stop at around 12 mins to 7 as (bus was showing on RTPI as scheduled for Terenure at 7:56) - as I approach the bus stop another entering service bus zooms past - definitely not with a broken sign as all lights were off etc.

Still no sign of a bus..

I am beginning to suspect this is not the actions of poorly designed RTPI - but the actions of drivers exploiting a poorly designed system.

Someone at DB must take responsibility.

km991148

ok.. 2nd bus came - so based on 2 days, 4 buses were due but only 2 turned up..

Sean9015

When I was involved in speccing and delivering an RTPI system in the UK, we got round the predicted / scheduled conundrum by showing sheduled times as such (eg 12:25), and predicted ones as a countdown (eg 5 mins). This was explained on stop information. The customers knew therefore that a predicted bus was definitely on the way, whereas a scheduled one may or may not be.

The problem with the latter is that, unless the system is monitored continuously, there is no way of the system knowing whether it is a fault on the bus, driver incorrectly signed in or the bus not being present. Hence, unless you pay someone to sit there and manually update, "Bus Cancelled" messages for individual journeys are impractical.

To pick up on lxflyers comment about diversions, at least one system did once have this capability in some form. The Williams Industries - later ACIS - Busnet system as originally implemented in Nottinghamshire and Suffolk did not originally use timetable databases to build the predictions. Each display was programmed with which routes went past it, and the compass direction (with a mask) they would be heading in. Bus locations were sent out on open channels, with the GPS giving an accurate time sync for each message. The stop then built its own prediction profile based on the preceding vehicles, wit an algorithm weighting the most recent. This was surprisingly effective, with accurate predictions being built up after 3-4 journeys. If a diversion took place therefore (eg for roadworks) the system could adjust the predictions very quickly and, importantly, without user intervention. Manual intervention was only required if a stop was actually left unserved.

The problem with this system was limited capacity - IIRC it was about 100 buses per channel, but an unlimited number of displays. There could also be issues over the scheduled / predicted times mentioned if the predicted time was more than a few minutes away from the scheduled, as the system sometimes would not clear the scheduled time off the display, leading to confusion especially if the bus was early (I know, there is every excuse for lateness, but none for early running, but it happened). There were also other issues, as the systems of the time were unable to link to ticketing machines so the driver had to set a second box - a challenge to achieve when the "spy in the cab" mentality was present. The stop displays were also more expensive, as they had to have processing power whereas other systems with central prediction processing could just use pager style recievers, although the latter could not be proved remotely.

A change in staff at ACIS lead to the approach being abandoned for a database / GPS / Odometer approach, which required more intrervention - and therefore staffing costs - which led to Nottinghamshire eventually shutting down their system.

LXFlyer

km991148 wrote: »

so.. next morning.. get up 1/2 an hour early to get the earlier 65b (after yesterdays mess).. get to the bus stop at around 12 mins to 7 as (bus was showing on RTPI as scheduled for Terenure at 7:56) - as I approach the bus stop another entering service bus zooms past - definitely not with a broken sign as all lights were off etc.

Still no sign of a bus..

I am beginning to suspect this is not the actions of poorly designed RTPI - but the actions of drivers exploiting a poorly designed system.

Someone at DB must take responsibility.

km991148 wrote: »

ok.. 2nd bus came - so based on 2 days, 4 buses were due but only 2 turned up..

OK leaving aside the RTPI issues, reading your posts, I'm assuming that you're going for the 06:30 or 06:50 departures on the 65b outbound from the city.

From experience (I used to use the 65 and 65b on a daily basis outbound from Terenure in the early mornings for five years) I would expect them to take around 12-20 minutes to appear in Terenure, depending on traffic.

Therefore I'd expect that the first one should appear between 06:40-06:50, and the second one between 07:00-07:10.

I suspect you missed the first one this morning - it would probably have passed a couple of minutes earlier than 06:48.

Depending on where you are going, if you miss either of these you should take a 49 or 65 and connect to another route in Tallaght if necessary - they both intersect with the 77a in Tallaght if you are going to Citywest, rather than forking out €20 for a taxi.

Getting back to the predictive times, looking at the journey planner there appears to be an error in the RTPI predictive times as there is no way it would take 26 minutes at that hour of the morning for the bus to get to Terenure. The predictive times appear to have changed on the journey planner recently, and looking at the older times (which for some reason are still there) they were giving each bus 16 minutes to get to Terenure, which was closer to the mark.

What I don't understand is why the real times are not overwriting the predictive times.

What are you using to look at the real time? An on-street display, Dublin Bus app or NTA Journey planner?

LXFlyer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I really don't give a rat's arse about the predictions.

I just expect an app that says it is providing real-time information to do just that - at very least for buses which have left their terminus and are travelling towards me.

This includes showing the best estimate of when the bus will reach me, based on the actual time that it last transmitted data (I'd expect that to be once a minute) and the timetable predictions.

Frankly, as a private citizen, I don't see it as my responsibility to be a data-collection agent for BE. The times here are so off that they MUST know about it already, unless they're blind!

Perhaps I tend to be more civic minded - I always tend to be pro-active when I see things like this as (from experience) in many cases I've found that the transport companies may not be aware of things like this.


There's never any substitute for customer feedback.

wahesh32

lxflyer wrote: »

Perhaps I tend to be more civic minded - I always tend to be pro-active when I see things like this as (from experience) in many cases I've found that the transport companies may not be aware of things like this.


There's never any substitute for customer feedback.

One of the bus routes would never appear on the RTPI for the stop outside my job (but would appear on the stops before or after my stop, and it was never all that accurate. It'd go from 12 minutes down to 3 minutes). I emailed Dublin Bus about it, and they replied they were unaware of the problem and would rewrite the timetables. About 3 weeks later the new timetables were pushed to the RTPI system (it had to be during a planned system upgrade), and now my bus appears on the stop outside my job and shows an accurate due time.

If I were to run across another problem, I know that I would email Dublin Bus right away with all the details.

I had a similar experience with IrishRail and their DART line where they promptly fixed an error on their website that I pointed out by email.

Whether or not the customer "should" be the one to point out these issues is not really important to me. What I've realized is if I do point it out, it makes a better service for me and presumably everyone else.

cdebru

[/QUOTE=km991148;92215743]so.. next morning.. get up 1/2 an hour early to get the earlier 65b (after yesterdays mess).. get to the bus stop at around 12 mins to 7 as (bus was showing on RTPI as scheduled for Terenure at 7:56) - as I approach the bus stop another entering service bus zooms past - definitely not with a broken sign as all lights were off etc.

Still no sign of a bus..

I am beginning to suspect this is not the actions of poorly designed RTPI - but the actions of drivers exploiting a poorly designed system.

Someone at DB must take responsibility.[/QUOTE ]

Ok based on what you are saying it is probably that the 65b you are waiting for is arriving into town late and being sent back out to tallaght or some point along the route out of service, to get it back on schedule but the RTPI is picking up the bus and predicting its arrival at stops even though it is not actually in service.
I very much doubt drivers exploiting a system, they simply wouldn't get away with it. It is IMO either a controller not removing the bus from the system, or a fault with the RTPI that it is picking up the bus when it shouldn't be.

Either way a complaint to DB with as much detail as possible is your best course.

Boulevardier

Conversely, has anyone experienced the miracle of buses appearing out of the blue when they are not mentioned at all on the real-time?

Sometimes the real-time shows no 145 due for 12 minutes, but there one is straight away. Hallelujah!!!

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

Ok based on what you are saying it is probably that the 65b you are waiting for is arriving into town late and being sent back out to tallaght or some point along the route out of service, to get it back on schedule but the RTPI is picking up the bus and predicting its arrival at stops even though it is not actually in service.
I very much doubt drivers exploiting a system, they simply wouldn't get away with it. It is IMO either a controller not removing the bus from the system, or a fault with the RTPI that it is picking up the bus when it shouldn't be.

Either way a complaint to DB with as much detail as possible is your best course.

I think it's more the case that he/she has missed the bus. Based on my own experience it would be gone already when they arrived at the stop. The revised timing estimates in the RTPI system are way off kilter.

I doubt the 06:30 service has a trip before that, and while the 06:50 may do, no controller is going to send it out special when the next outbound trip on the route is not until 08:30.

The key question I have is what is the OP using to check the real time?

The best method I know is either the Dublin Bus website or the Dublin Bus app. They come directly off the company server.

I'd agree - any driver trying to "exploit the system" would be caught very quickly.

LXFlyer

Boulevardier wrote: »

Conversely, has anyone experienced the miracle of buses appearing out of the blue when they are not mentioned at all on the real-time?

Sometimes the real-time shows no 145 due for 12 minutes, but there one is straight away. Hallelujah!!!

That sounds like defective GPS or an extra unscheduled departure.

Mrs OBumble

lxflyer wrote: »

Perhaps I tend to be more civic minded - I always tend to be pro-active when I see things like this as (from experience) in many cases I've found that the transport companies may not be aware of things like this.


There's never any substitute for customer feedback.

That's the funniest thing I've read all day.

I've already made a city public transport information and newsfeed website for them and/or the council, as per my signature. (The council promised to do it in 2009, but didn't deliver.) I'm damned if I'm going to do enough data collection and defect-writing to convince them that they've screwed up the RTPI implementation. And anything less than very detailed observations, they will just write off as one-off cases.

Reading back, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. This is not about buses that aren't in service yet. In both the example I gave, and many others I've seen, the bus has already left the terminal and travelled a fair way (5+km) along its route. There is no excuse for it to be showing anything but real-time plus the prediction between its last reported location and where I am. Instead, the app was showing predictions based on timetable *alone* - and in this case it should not have the words "real time" listed by it.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

I think it's more the case that he/she has missed the bus. Based on my own experience it would be gone already when they arrived at the stop. The revised timing estimates in the RTPI system are way off kilter.

I doubt the 06:30 service has a trip before that, and while the 06:50 may do, no controller is going to send it out special when the next outbound trip on the route is not until 08:30.

The key question I have is what is the OP using to check the real time?

The best method I know is either the Dublin Bus website or the Dublin Bus app. They come directly off the company server.

I'd agree - any driver trying to "exploit the system" would be caught very quickly.

His times are actually confuses when he writes the numbers he suggests he is talking about 6:48 but in numbers he says 7:56, I was working on the basis of it being 7:56, I agree if it is 6:56 it is unlikely it does something before and if it does it is unlikely to be running late.

Which leaves either your explanation which could be because there is a problem with the system, usually on the bus so it is not getting live positional updates so it is going on predicted times which are based on average times over the day and not specific to traffic conditions at that time of the day.

Another possibility is and I have seen this, (or at least I think I have) that the RTPI picks up the bus and puts it on the display, going special along the route, ticket machine signed on for that route, the bus starts to announce the stops and I notice that the real time is showing a bus on the route as due, even though there is no bus due and no other bus around. It fits with the bus entering service passing the stops and the OP seeing the bus outside at the terminus.
I presume it maybe meant to be a feature to pick up buses like non timetabled extras or where a driver has incorrectly signed on but it may be picking up buses that aren't actually operating presuming they are one of the above.
( BTW driver has to sign on before leaving depot to ensure ticket equipment is operational before leaving depot)

Penny Tration

Was waiting on Nassau Street for either a 4 or 7 to the RDS on Saturday. Three went by without letting people on because they were full (fair enough), 3 disappeared off the board 2 minutes before they were due. So, i ended up having to get a taxi so i wouldn't be late for the rugby match.

The 17.32 17a very rarely arrives on a Saturday. I'm usually waiting an hour for a bus home from work.

cdebru

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

That's the funniest thing I've read all day.

I've already made a city public transport information and newsfeed website for them and/or the council, as per my signature. (The council promised to do it in 2009, but didn't deliver.) I'm damned if I'm going to do enough data collection and defect-writing to convince them that they've screwed up the RTPI implementation. And anything less than very detailed observations, they will just write off as one-off cases.

Reading back, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. This is not about buses that aren't in service yet. In both the example I gave, and many others I've seen, the bus has already left the terminal and travelled a fair way (5+km) along its route. There is no excuse for it to be showing anything but real-time plus the prediction between its last reported location and where I am. Instead, the app was showing predictions based on timetable *alone* - and in this case it should not have the words "real time" listed by it.

What I think ( and this is only from observation) is happening is that the system is set up to use real time when available and if not available to use predicted times rather than just go blank.

So if there is a predicted 10:30 departure it switches to real time when the real time becomes available, but if it has no real time it defaults to predicted which can be either wildly wrong depending on traffic conditions but the bus is out there somewhere or completely wrong because the bus isn't actually operating but the human intervention to remove it from the system hasn't happened.

Unfortunately if no one complains about it then that will likely not change, as I'm guessing until passengers complain the controllers supervisor is unaware that they are not doing their job.

LXFlyer

Random_Name wrote: »

I understand what you are saying now. But I still disagree, I'm talking about buses not due for between 5-15 minutes

Actually I noticed this myself in Dalkey yesterday on two occasions.


The inbound 8 was on the displays/RTPI app until 15 minutes before departure, then vanished completely, and then reappeared 5 minutes prior to departure.


During that whole period the bus was parked at the terminus, and the driver hadn't changed anything, so there does appear to be (for certain routes) a system glitch, as that certainly doesn't happen on all routes.