Are Lidl/Aldi doomed once the recession is over?

NIMAN

Wondering of people think that they will lose customers once the recession is over, or have they now got their converts who will continue to shop there?

Will some people not want to be seen in it in a few years time?

To be honest I do not confine my shopping to one place in particular, and would use Supervalu, Tesco, M&S, Lidl and Aldi regularly.

I was never overly impressed by the so-called massive savings to be made in Aldi/Lidl. I did find a few things cheaper but the nonsense of advert claims of saving €80 per week were a bit far fetched imho.

Today for example I did a shop in Lidl and some of the prices when I checked my receipt made me think I could have got them cheaper elsewhere.

Examples:
Blueberries €3.00
Broccoli €1.09
Cherry tomatoes €1.99
Refuse sacks €1.79

coylemj

Yes, as soon as the recession is over and they abolish the USC and bring car tax down and reduce the excise on petrol, I'm sure I'll be first outside my local Dunnes just gagging to to get ripped off once again on the basics like milk and bog rolls. It will be the good old days all over again.

Can't wait.

wmpdd3

there is no doubt that some items are cheaper in the discounters,

though other supermarkets reduced their prices because of the discounters.

But yes , no where near 80 Euro on a 150 Euro shop. I know because I have done my mum's shopping for her and saved about 35 Euro by buying some own brands
she just doesn't but many branded items do there is no saving.

I got peeved with the amount of specials in both stores, I'd prefer if they sold more food. it's not very often you see a bargain, sure the stuff is often good quality but it's hardly cheap.

neither store sells baking supplies such yeast etc so you'd have go another store for those anyway. i shop mostly in a supermarket and buy coffee aldi and cheese lidl!

Harry Palmr

Sure anyone can pick and choose a handful of lines and say they could be cheaper somewhere else!

Lidl and Aldi will thrive as they expand the market both geographically and with regard to the range of products.

UncleChael

Not a chance, Lidl and Aldi are here to stay. Fantastic stores, prices and goods. I shopped in them before the recession and to be honest me shopping there actually has nothing to do with prices be it high or low, I just like their products now.

wmpdd3

......leaving the discounters to raise prices......

Bepolite

In all honesty Lidl and Aldi have positioned themselves brilliantly. They're closer to town in a lot of cases and sell the stuff you don't get in butchers and greengrocers. I'm not suggesting the ear of the big out of town tesco has, had it's day but they are losing market share to smaller shops. Many people, myself included, don't want the rubbish that passes for meat and veg for the big super markets.

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to return to the days that they wouldn't be caught dead shopping anywhere but M&S but then I'm sure the rank stupidity of the sheeple will prove me wrong.

Sunhill

There's no going back.
Noticed Tesco Mahon Point, Cork, has FIVE checkout lanes closed semi-permanently, replaced by stock displays.
The start of a slippery slope for the old regime?

DVDM93

No. To be honest I prefer the majority of Aldi/Lidl products over the likes of Dunnes/Tesco/Super Valu. That said, I still often pick up bits and pieces from all 3 stores. Aldi/Lidl would just be my choice of preference. Not because of the discounts, if there are much of them, as some people have mentioned it nowhere near the €80 or so they advertise.

I don't think coming out of the recession will change anyone's shopping habits, if you shop in Aldi/Lidl they'll continue to do so, and if you're an M&S shopper you'll continue your custom there.

That said, wasn't overspending necessarily and for the sake of it not the main cause of the problem in the first place? Why start to blow the cash in M&S just bacause we're out of a recession when said person has had no problem with Lidl/Aldi these last few years.

Off topic question, do people find much of a difference between Lidl and Aldi? Just yesterday my Mum said she prefers Aldi, better range of stuff and what not. I for one would find it hard to distinguish between both if I was in them and the labels were taken off, I think... all of what I need are in both.

Bigus

Lidl and more so Aldi have got quailty own brand products and cleverly use hundreds of different own brand labels instead of blasting Aldi / lidl over the labels, embarrassing you at the table.

I think it's easier to eat healthily and cut down on processed foods in the discounters vs the supermarkets without 30,000 pus items with spurious special offers.

Also brands are less important if the foods are closer to natural and not interfered or processed,

Examples being , fresh fruit and veg( irish mostly), nuts , dried fruits, glass jar items beet root ,sundries tomatoes, mustard, honey, jams, and unprocessed irish meat.

They also have a habit of using the best of a countries product as in genuine, German ham, Spanish chorizo, French blue cheese, irish butter, Greek yogurt, etc .
Plus who needs branded jax roll , tin foil, cling film, sugar, dog food( if the dogs are happy and healthy as commented by my vet ) fire logs and such commodities.

Mrs Bigus is a convert now , even to the point where she prefers to get her Tayto in Aldi or Lidl ! Why ? because of better handling systems they invariably have longer use by dates therefore fresher Irish Crisps then even supervalue.

I was an early convert to discounters purely because I had no alternative near me, and I have to laugh when I think back to see how embarrassed people were when you bumped into them back in the boom.

I hope they don't go all monopoly or duopoly in the future and take the piss on prices , but their model is fundamentally cheaper to operate and dare I say fundamentally fresher too because of efficiency.

marienbad

I have never met anyone that was embarrassed at shopping in Aldi or Lidl.

Dyr

I've started cutting radically down on processed foods and aldi/lidl makes all the difference when it comes to the price on fresh produce. They also tend to have less additives than the name brands on their processed stuff

Fred Swanson

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ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Cherry tomatoes were only €0.39 in lidl over the weekend. Missed out OP.

My two cents. People have become 'smarter shoppers'. I think the recession has removed the stigma that was attached to shopping in the discounts stores.

NIMAN wrote: »

Examples:
Blueberries €3.00
Broccoli €1.09
Cherry tomatoes €1.99
Refuse sacks €1.79

dudara

I think Aldi and Lidl have both made huge strides in their support of Irish producers. From what I've heard, they don't drive lowest-cost type pricing with their suppliers (unlike some larger retailers) and personally, I think their products are, for the most part, quite high quality.

In my view, they've positioned themselves well in the market. Plus I do find them genuinely cheaper for my shopping.

RoadhouseBlues

I still know people who would be ashamed to be seen in Lidl or Aldi. I know. Its hard to believe. I do most of my shopping in Aldi now. Their stuff is high quality. That's my opinion. Their Brannigans smoked rashers are divine. Peppered grill steaks. Divine. Fruit and veg. Good quality. Got potatoes and apples for 49cents per bag at the weekend. I don't think people will leave them. Even if you just forgot about the prices. Like I said, the stuff is high quality.

Oh and for the people who like to unwind with a drink at the weekend. Try their St Ettiene cans. They are far better than Budweiser or Heineken. Happy shopping folks. And don't go off your trolleys:-):-)

MugMugs

I recently met an Irish producer for Tesco, Lidl, Aldi, Dunnes and some other name. We asked him who was the biggest pain the backside. His answer was Aldi, because their quality demands are so much higher.

A pain to him but surely a benefit to us.

misterdeeds

I think ALDI/LIDL will be strong in the Irish grocery sector in the future as they have a v good market share and seem to be getting stronger
As regards my shopping (mostly in ALDI) I find it alot cheaper for my basic items, milk cereal yogurts and some and some freezer food etc (fish,goujons and wedges )
Somehow though if the recession ends I will no doubt stay with them as I am fond of their products and can get in there and out in about 15 mins.
Annoying thing is ....... (like all the supermarkets now) they have approx 6 (?) checkouts and only ever 2 open ......... wtf and give you no chance to put your few things in your bag just scan your stuff and almost throw it at you
Ah well no big deal though , happy with them .
just waiting until they launch a loyalty card :-) will be interesting

alchemist33

Regardless of what a minority may have been doing during the boom, most people still want value. If Aldi and Lidl remain broadly cheaper, they'll keep customers.

RoadhouseBlues

MugMugs wrote: »

I recently met an Irish producer for Tesco, Lidl, Aldi, Dunnes and some other name. We asked him who was the biggest pain the backside. His answer was Aldi, because their quality demands are so much higher.

A pain to him but surely a benefit to us.

Aye I read that somewhere alright. Apparently their food standards are higher than the Irish food standard here, and that is why their stuff is such high quality.

hfallada

I love the fact that you can do a whole weekly shop in Lidl in about 15 mins. They realise we really dont need the choice of 25 different mouth washes or 5 brands of bin liners. Consumer prefer less choice and better value. I struggle to go into Tesco and be out within an hour. Plus car parks in Lidl are so small(but never full), that its not the usual trek through a car park like Tesco. Items like Avocados which were a luxury in Dunnes/Tesco, are cheap in Lidl. The fruit and veg in Lidl/ Aldi is always super fresh. I have yet to buy fruit/veg that was rotten within a few days, like some other supermarkets. The most shocking thing for me, was when I was in the fruit market in Dublin. I asked for a box of blood oranges and was told they were out of season for 6 weeks. But Tesco was still selling them.

Germans will tell you they shop in Lidl/Aldi, so they can save money, to buy things like a better car or foreign holidays.

Aceandstuff

It seems to me like Lidl and Aldi have set a trend among Irish supermarkets for selling more foreign foods, eg, different fruit and vegetables, mustards, salami and other sausages, etc. Other supermarkets have introduced more diverse ranges of food products since the spread of these "discounters," even if they're not at the same price. People seem to buy and enjoy the specialty foods in Lidl and Aldi, which I still don't find in other places.

Personally, my family and I were flat broke before the bust, so we always used Lidl and Aldi anyway. The quality there is good, and has only improved over the past few years. Prices are evening out between the supermarkets now, but I'm sticking with "discounters" for the quality more than anything else. Brands are a ripoff, and there are really good alternatives in the form of Lidl and Aldi own brands.

That being said, when it comes to actual discounts, nothing beats Friday nights in Tesco! The 30% off labels on Lidl goods often get ignored at the till, and prices come up wrong on receipts, leading to quibbles over about half of my purchases.

Still, not changing away from them unless something crazy happens, and I don't see why anyone would be ashamed to shop there. Plenty of the locals where I used to live were ashamed, but I have not seen the same reaction elsewhere. These supermarkets seem busier than ever.

tayto lover

It's all about smart shopping.
Subscribe to the websites of all the stores and pick and choose what you need in each store in advance of your shopping day.
You can save a lot of dosh in this way.
Lidl and Aldi are here to stay.

Pat Mustard

One other thing about Lidl and Aldi.

The quick and convenient shopping experience.

You drive in. There is always loads of parking, without having to drive around to find one. You park, and you are always fairly close to the door, whether or not it is raining.

You go in. All of the shops are laid out the same way, so you can find whatever you want easily.

The queues at the checkout always move quickly. When it's busy, they open more checkouts, to keep things moving.

You can be in and out in ten minutes.

It all takes longer at Tesco and Dunnes.

If I was a millionaire tomorrow morning, I'd still shop at Aldi or Lidl.

quadrifoglio verde

I absolutely live them for the basics. Fruit veg, cereal, pasta, meat and fish. You can't go wrong. Then head to m and s for the real treats, and the bill still works out the same if not cheaper over tesco.
Tesco are like boots in my opinion. They give off this impression of being cheap, but rarely are (my local pharmacy sells Colgate all the time for 1.50 for example, not the 3 for 2 bull**** that ends up costing more).

While they don't carry as many lines as tesco, there isn't really a need for it. I don't need an aisle full of yogurts and butter. It does my head in when people say they'd never buy their meat in aldi, but when asked where they buy their meat, they say tesco :eek:

NIMAN

Have to say that I have nothing against Aldi/Lidl, and as I said at the offset, I use them regularly.

But before I ever started shopping in them, I always heard how great their fruit and veg were. To be honest, I am disappointed by them. My main criticism is that they rarely have any sell-by/use by date on their fruit and veg, so you are not sure if the tomatoes or apples you are about to buy have been on the shelf since this morning or 4 days ago. All other supermarkets have dates on everything.

As for the quality of it, I find that its ok, nothing special. On a par with Tesco and the like. I tend to try to get to M&S for my fruit, theirs is on a different level imho. OK so it might be more expensive, but it tastes so much nicer.

Also, some seem to say that M&S are very expensive. This isn't always true. Their Dine in for Two deals are excellent value for money. They have a value range (can't remember its name) so you can get better quality items than you'd get elsewhere for good money.

I do find certain products in Aldi/Lidl that are very nice and which i always buy. However, equally some of their stuff I'd never touch again, like their Fallons tea and some of their toiletries.

GoTheDistance

Each week we seem to do a little more shopping in Lidl and Aldi in favour of Dunnes or Tescos. It looks to me as if both of my local Lidl and Aldi stores are busier than ever - it does bug me the amount of plastic crap they have for sale in the 'middle isles' - gardening equipment, tradesmans' tools etc seem to be there all summer.

Geuze

Having grown to over 9,000 stores worldwide, with over 100 shops in Ireland, I don't think Aldi's existence will be threatened by a return to normal economic growth rates.

EmilyHoward

I really like shopping in aldi / lidl now , their fresh fruit and vegetable sections are much better than the rivals but there is just 2 things which would convert me for life
1) self service checkouts for <10 - 15 items or less, I hate queuing for ages with 1 - 2 items behind someone with a trolley full of 100+ items.
2) more space in the areas behind the checkout for your groceries, at times it can feel like they are practically throwing the shopping at you.

Fred Swanson

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BuffyBot

They were here before the recession, they'll be here long after any recession.

They've survived and thrived through many economic cycles elsewhere..why would Ireland be any different?

Hollister11

A few things I don't get in lidl - milk IMO it will do but it isn't as nice as avonmore.
Dog food - the quality is terrible and my dogs refuser to eat it now - the treats are good.
Some cereal - the own brand cornflakes and coco pops arnt great compared to other own brands in supervalue

Into The Blue

I'll shop at aldi if only for the fast till times..
Fecking hate shopping at dunes or tesco, slowly losing the will to live as yer wan takes aaagggeesss to scan

gladrags

As a recovering cardiac out patient,the quality takes precedence over cost.

A&l have introduced a wider range of healthier choice.

Fruit,veg and poultry ,fish and meats appear fresh,and there is a bigger emphasis on Irish equals fresh.

The same applies to dairy produce.

Overall, all outlets are guilty of over relying on processed and toxic food.

Given the serious health issues related to salt,sugar and fats.

It is a pity Aldi or Lidl has not taken the lead,and banned one of the above

Don't hold your banana.

SpaceTime

Aldi and Lidl are doing serious damage to Tesco and Asda in the UK too. It's not just post Celtic Tiger Ireland.

Tesco isn't high end and it's not cheap

M&S, Waitrose and Super Valu offer something a bit different in terms of very high end products and a nice experience.

Tesco charges you a lot for mediocre products and often big-box ugly stores these days.

Ideal combination is Aldi or Lidl for the basics, M&S (and the English market gourmet stuff down here) and SuperValu / ex superquinn for the branded and local artisan stuff.

Tesco and Dunne's aren't really in my mix anymore.

Fred Swanson

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foggy_lad

Before the crash many people shopped in Aldi/Lidl once a month for things like toilet paper and larder items, pasta freezer fillers etc and did their main shopping in the main supermarkets.

Now the same people do their weekly shopping in Aldi/Lidl and go to the others once a month for the few branded items they or the kids will not do without.

Aldi and Lidl are definitely here to stay and because of their policy of staying in or near town centres where possible they will have a much better position than the others who sold their prime locations in town centres to move miles out in the countryside where only those with cars or who pay for taxis can shop.


Also the reason the other supermarkets carry so many different brands of the same items is not for customer choice but to confuse the bejaysus out of the shoppers who are trying to compare prices and pack/unit sizes etc because all these different brands of the same product have different prices and different pack sizes and with many the pack sizes changes every few weeks as their famous fake offers are announced.

EunanMac

I started doing all my weekly shopping in Lidl, just after the first few opened, when nearly no one did, and when you got funny looks for saying you did. The shops were practically empty of any Irish people then, and they were comparatively, much much cheaper than they are now. Comparatively, as they became busier, there was less and less big savings to be had, and Lidl and Aldi have realised they only have to be just slightly cheaper than the existing cartels in Ireland and they will clean up, and continue to do so.

bnagrrl

misterdeeds wrote: »

.. give you no chance to put your few things in your bag just scan your stuff and almost throw it at you

You're supposed to just fire your stuff back into your trolley and move over to the counter by the window to pack it up properly at your leisure

Love Aldi/Lidl. Shopped there before the recession and will continue to do so regardless. The fruit and veg are superb IMO, love the smoked salmon, Parma ham and the new pulled pork and the quinoa salads. Yogurts too are great. I would say I do 90% of my grocery shopping there and only get a few special items in my local Supervalu or tesco if I needed something very particular for a recipe.

foggy_lad

EmilyHoward wrote: »

I really like shopping in aldi / lidl now , their fresh fruit and vegetable sections are much better than the rivals but there is just 2 things which would convert me for life
1) self service checkouts for <10 - 15 items or less, I hate queuing for ages with 1 - 2 items behind someone with a trolley full of 100+ items.
2) more space in the areas behind the checkout for your groceries, at times it can feel like they are practically throwing the shopping at you.

Whenever I am at the till loading my items from my small trolly onto the belt and someone arrives behind me with a few(<10) items they get passed ahead of me as I feel it is only fair they should get to pay while i might still be loading my shopping onto the belt.

As for the small areas at the till, you should have your trolley or basket to quickly throw stuff into then pack it away from the till at the shelf provided for this purpose. Aldi/Lidl are not the first to work this way in Ireland, Many Crazy prices stores as well as all the Gubay's stores and several other small independent supermarket chains most now long gone had the same system at the tills to make the shopping experience as fast as possible and get as many as possible through the tills.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Got milk in Aldi the other day and it had 12 days lifespan! the best I ever got from Tesco or SuperQuinn/Valu was 7 days. and like others have stated the quality is just the best available.

Aglomerado

marienbad wrote: »

I have never met anyone that was embarrassed at shopping in Aldi or Lidl.

A former snobby friend of mine used to use the "They have good plants for the garden" as a pretext for going there.

I shopped in Aldi / Lidl right through the boom, then the recession, and will continue to do so. Their value for money is unparalleled in my opinion.

leeroybrown

ALDI and LIDL have the biggest profit margins in the Irish supermarket sector. There's absolutely no chance of them hitting any trouble. Even when they were unfashionable and more focussed on the lower end of the market when they first opened they were doing very well. If the average Irish person starts spending more on weekly shopping they'll just increase the quality of some of their offerings and run better weekly specials to keep their customers.

former legend

I have always been a big fan of Aldi but the quality of their fruit and veg is gone down IMO, doesn't keep nearly as long as it should. Also wrecks my head that so much of their fruit comes from the other side of the world, fair enough for bananas or pineapples but do apples really need to come from Chile and pears from South Africa?

It's also annoying that you can go into Aldi and buy what they have, whereas you can go to Dunnes or Supervalu and buy what you want. So I go to Aldi pretty much every week but I always need to follow it up with a trip to another supermarket to get what Aldi don't stock.

Han534

I think its been good for Ireland as it has motivated others to drive down prices

L1011

Aglomerado wrote: »

A former snobby friend of mine used to use the "They have good plants for the garden" as a pretext for going there.

CEO in work used "its the closest supermarket to the holiday house..." as her excuse, now shops there weekly despite there being a Tesco and Supervalu much closer to her actual house.

The snobbery seems to be gone in Ireland - in the UK though its still very obviously there, hence the really bad jokes made on British comedy shows etc.

MugMugs

We all grew up in Society of "St Bernards finest" when it came to clothes.

My folks couldn't afford to dress us in Nike and Addidas.

So we went out and got small jobs like paper drops and earned the money to buy our designer brands.

The retail snobbery has always existed. It just seems to have promoted the likes of Dunnes with the inception of Aldi and Lidl,

Shelflife

First up let me declare my hand that im a small retailer, I rarely if ever shop elsewhere, but will check out the bigger supermarkets on occasion.

They are far from doomed, they have done an excellent job in their advertising and you really have to admire their advertising campaigns.They have gone from being the dour secretive uber effecient Germans to the wonderful open and virtually Irish companies.

Their Ads are really making their point, ramming home the fact that Aldi and Lidl are really cheap and that you would be mad to be shopping elsewhere,this in turn is backed up my an amount of free publicity they get in the print and in particular on the radio (ironic as they dont even play the radio on their stores).

On closer inspection some of their offers arent all that they seem, their pack sizes are different to the norm, 750g of carrots v 1kg in my shop look the same but the perception is that they are cheaper, 5kg bags of potatoes v 10kg in my shop actually works out cheaper with us, 2kg washed potatoes v 2.5kg with us again giving the perception of better value when its the same. indeed with potatoes I have seen them sell "whites" a variety that we have never sold as the quality is so poor.

Many of our offers are very competitive with the supermarkets, but because they have the advertising spend its hard for us to get the message out there, the perception is there that the local shop is dear and the supermarkets are cheap.

Their claims of saving €80 per week on a 4 family shop could well be true if the family are switching from lobster and caviar washed down with a nice Moet to what most people eat, how they get away with those claims is beyond me.

Dont get me wrong, they have value without a doubt, but IMO and from what little experience I have had with their products I feel that you are sacrificing quality for quantity. For eg my kids got 2 Lidl easter eggs this year only one was eaten the other was thrown out, in a house where there is many an agruement over who ate whos chocolate this was a suprise.Some of their sauces left a lot to be desired but I appreciate that its down to personal taste.

They pay well,but employ very few,many of their employees are on much lower guaranteed hours than the small shops, despite all their advertising they still import an awful alot of their core range and repatriate their profits out of the country. Much less of every euro you spend in Aldi/Lidl compared with a euro you spend in a local shop will stay in the community you live in.

Im not a fan of Aldi/Lidl shops, i find them dreary and soulless places, I personally (if i didnt have a shop) wouldnt shop there but again thats a personal preference.

On a professional level,there is alot to admire about Lidl and Aldi, they are clearly well run, clean and efficient,their marketing campaigns are second to none and id say that they will be here for a long time to come.

former legend

Shelflife wrote: »

Their claims of saving €80 per week on a 4 family shop could well be true if the family are switching from lobster and caviar washed down with a nice Moet to what most people eat, how they get away with those claims is beyond me.

Yeah, this in particular is bullsh*t, and you're right that they get a free ride and masses of free publicity from the media, Conor Pope and 'Pricewatch' in the Irish Times being the main culprit.

fleet_admiral

I have only recently started using Lidl (Aldi is too far) for the vast majoriy of my shopping. Yesterday I did a 90% full shop for me, the wife and son and it came to just over €50. As far as I am concerned I wouldnt get that in one of the symbol groups. I find the quality of their own brand items is far superior to the like of Tesco value, daily basics etc..
The remaining 10% goes to Supervalu for the items I cant get in Lidl. Ill be sticking with them

hoodwinked

Sunhill wrote: »

There's no going back.
Noticed Tesco Mahon Point, Cork, has FIVE checkout lanes closed semi-permanently, replaced by stock displays.
The start of a slippery slope for the old regime?

that is possibly the worst example to use, Tesco Mahon point is really a giant "pop in" shop, not somewhere people go to do their shopping for many reasons,

traffic is so bad in the area people tend to go to Tesco Douglas or Tesco Wilton rather than mahon point,

their main target shoppers are workers in mahon point popping in for a quick post work shop or people going to the cinema (hence their large drinks/crisp/sweet aisles near the main center door)

as for myself i shop where ever the bargains are, i pass both a supervalu and tesco everyday so we have adapted an "offer shop" kind of process, we tried shopping in lidl and aldi but nether stock the majority of the foods we eat,

if you like non spicy sauces or pasta dishes these stores do nothing for you with very basic selections, they are great for fruit and veg though i tend to shop in local smaller shops for those, and our local butchers is un-rivaled for prices and quality/quantity of meat,

we found ourselves spending €20 in aldi and another €20 in tesco/supervalu/dunnes replacing items they didn't have, not to mention the extra petrol used by having to shop in two stores, as opposed to a shop in supervalu or tesco (which have a local butchers/greengrocers in the same center) that would usually cost us roughly €20/€30 per week, we buy in bulk when things are on offer like toilet paper, a huge box of fairy washing powder we bought for €20 last december just ran out in july, nescafe gold blend coffee when they are reduced or have 100% extra free...etc

when tesco misprice something as they often do (like recently they did sure deodorants for 86cent) i buy loads making most of what i buy brand names that are cheaper than the cheapest aldi equivalent,

my grandmother used do it for us when we were younger with clothes (buying next years summer clothes in the end of summer sales) and i applied the same principles with long lasting brand items leaving only perishables to buy during the weeks,

L1011

Sunhill wrote: »

There's no going back.
Noticed Tesco Mahon Point, Cork, has FIVE checkout lanes closed semi-permanently, replaced by stock displays.
The start of a slippery slope for the old regime?

This has been the case in a lot of Extra shops for some time. They may be open again at Christmas.