What about moving the Dublin Footballers to Ulster

DoctaDee

I haven't seen the latest figures but at the start of the 2011-17 strategic plan we fielded 1359 juvenile and 494 adult teams combined in both hurling & football. We had 7,500 kids in club nurseries and 56,000 members (player, family, associate etc).

gaffer91

Flukey wrote: »

Your post is full of contradictions. You are saying Dublin have an advantage but it is of no advantage to them. You can't have it both ways. No one is going to stand up and say Dublin does not have a bigger population. Of course it does. You then go on to say it is an advantage, yet can show no evidence that it is and basically even admit that it isn't. To say there is an advantage would usually be backed up by some evidence of how that advantage manifests itself. If Dublin aren't getting success out of the their bigger population then they don't have an advantage. Success levels do matter if you are trying to make a case of there being an advantage. If Dublin are getting less success than counties of considerably smaller populations, then having a larger population is clearly no advantage. The great irony of splitting Dublin in two being better for Leinster is that we could end up with many Dublin North v Dublin South Leinster finals, so the end result would be to exclude the other Leinster counties even more. They may get hammered next Sunday, but by there being only one Dublin team in Leinster, Westmeath have been able to get to the final. With only one Dublin team we are always guaranteed a non-Dublin team in it.

Even if we go with your thesis that Dublin do have an unfair advantage (which they clearly don't), if they are not making the most of it then what is the problem? You started by saying there was a lot of nonsense posted here. Stating that Dublin have an advantage that has proved to be of no advantage is one of the best examples of that, as is saying that they should not be allowed to have an advantage that is of no advantage to them.

See my analogy about the premier league team. Just because they don't win every year does this mean they don't have an unjustified leg-up? I would say no.

It's the same with Dublin, just because they don't win every year doesn't mean they don't have an unfair advantage. All-Ireland's are not the only barometer by which to measure success. I would suggest that Dublin could be doing much worse if this unfair advantage was taken away from them- e.g less All-Irelands, less provincial titles, neither of the Dublin teams would advance as far every year in the All-Ireland series etc. They might still win provincial and All-Ireland titles some years but I doubt they'd be as successful if they were split.

For instance, you say that because Dublin have less success than Kerry they don't have an unfair advantage- I would suggest to you that they would have even less success again if the playing field was levelled and their unfair advantage was taken away from them.

Dublin South and North wouldn't be the only way to split the county i'm sure. Even if it was the Leinster championship could be set up in such a way that they could meet each other before the final so there would still be a chance for a non-Dublin team to get to the final.

Honestly, I don't care what county you're from, you should be behind splitting Dublin in two. There are a lot of benefits and hardly any negatives.

Flukey

Gaffer91, you keep on going on about this unfair advantage but can't explain how it manifests itself. If population is an issue then it should affect all counties proportionately, so the populations of Kerry and Kilkenny are relevant. Like most of the anti-Dublin stuff we see in this forum, this unfair advantage is a figment of the imagination. Having a large population is not a figment of your imagination, but that it gives Dublin an advantage is, and that is proven by hard facts. All this suggesting that Dublin would not do as well if this mythical advantage was removed is irrelevant. We can only deal with facts, not mights and maybes. Are you going to give credence to the fact that a few old men that were alive in 1951 are still alive as being the reason why Mayo have not won an All-Ireland since then? You could argue that had they all been dead 20 years ago that Mayo would have won several more All-Irelands. We have no proof of that, and we have no proof that Dublin's population aids them. We have plenty of proof that it doesn't though. Maybe if we get some engineers to do a massive job and divert the Nore so that it doesn't flow through Kilkenny any more, the amount of All-Irelands they win will drop. Total nonsense of course. Just like your Dublin population notion so.

jethro081

Flukey wrote: »

Gaffer91, you keep on going on about this unfair advantage but can't explain how it manifests itself. If population is an issue then it should affect all counties proportionately, so the populations of Kerry and Kilkenny are relevant. Like most of the anti-Dublin stuff we see in this forum, this unfair advantage is a figment of the imagination. Having a large population is not a figment of your imagination, but that it gives Dublin an advantage is, and that is proven by hard facts. All this suggesting that Dublin would not do as well if this mythical advantage was removed is irrelevant. We can only deal with facts, not mights and maybes. Are you going to give credence to the fact that a few old men that were alive in 1951 are still alive as being the reason why Mayo have not won an All-Ireland since then? You could argue that had they all been dead 20 years ago that Mayo would have won several more All-Irelands. We have no proof of that, and we have no proof that Dublin's population aids them. We have plenty of proof that it doesn't though. Maybe if we get some engineers to do a massive job and divert the Nore so that it doesn't flow through Kilkenny any more, the amount of All-Irelands they win will drop. Total nonsense of course. Just like your Dublin population notion so.

the top six counties in ireland at the minute, in no particular order, are kerry, donegal, dublin, mayo, cork, monaghan.
in terms of population those counties rank, 14th, 12th, 1st 17th, 4th and 29th respectively.

if the population argument held true, then surely they would rank one to six in terms of population. even if they were all top ten that'd support the argument, but they are not. Even if you exclude some of the six counties which would have significant unionist populations who do not necessarily buy into the GAA, teams like Kildare, Galway, Limerick and Meath should be absolutely hammering the likes of mayo, monaghan and kerry.

The simple fact is ,that population doesn't mean success. It didn't mean success when we all got a good laugh out of dublin losing a semi final every year in the noughties. it didn't mean success when monaghan beat kildare in the qualifiers last year, despite kildare having a population 3 and a half times the size.

football dominance is largely cyclical. the dubs are up now, and it's especially apparent because everyone else in leinster is down. that won't last forever. the dubs will have some fallow years, and meath or kildare will actually sort their sh1t out and put out a strong team again.

Also dublin have won three all irelands with this team. Tyrone won that many in the 2000s and kerry won more. Mayo have been in more finals than dublin. Donegal have been in two of the last three finals, winning one. Dublin have made it to one final in that time, and won it. It's not like they are steamrolling the all ireland series which is the impression you get from a lot of people.

People need to stop talking about Dublin as champions elect since they didn't even win the bloody thing last year.

gaffer91

Flukey wrote: »

Gaffer91, you keep on going on about this unfair advantage but can't explain how it manifests itself.

I have explained it but will do so again: Dublin win more games than they would if they were split in two. While population is not the only thing determining success in Gaelic Football, Dublin's population so much larger than average (6 x the average county population) that it should be deemed an unfair advantage.

Flukey wrote: »

Having a large population is not a figment of your imagination, but that it gives Dublin an advantage is, and that is proven by hard facts. All this suggesting that Dublin would not do as well if this mythical advantage was removed is irrelevant. We can only deal with facts, not mights and maybes.

It's not proven by any hard facts. The only way to tell for sure if it gives Dublin an unfair advantage would be to split them in two. So therefore the suggestion is not irrelevant, it's the essence of what I've been explaining to you these last few posts.

The fact you're getting so worked up about this sensible and workable proposal tells me I've struck a nerve. I think deep down you know that Dublin wouldn't be as successful if they were split and that's why you will defend their unfair advantage to the death.

Most of the rest of the post rambles on about Mayo players from 1951 or if the Nore was diverted and I can't really make head nor tail of it.

jethro081 wrote: »

if the population argument held true, then surely they would rank one to six in terms of population. even if they were all top ten that'd support the argument, but they are not. Even if you exclude some of the six counties which would have significant unionist populations who do not necessarily buy into the GAA, teams like Kildare, Galway, Limerick and Meath should be absolutely hammering the likes of mayo, monaghan and kerry.

The simple fact is ,that population doesn't mean success. .

Population isn't the only thing determining success but it is very important. And I'm sure it reaches critical mass when your population is 6 times the average as opposed to a few tens of thousands either way.

It mightn't mean success every year but it would mean an unfair advantage.

Say a team like Cork was allowed to take a player of their choice from another county every year. Would they win the All-Ireland every year? No. Would they have an unfair advantage over the rest of the counties? Yes. That's what I mean when I say Dublin have an unfair advantage- they mightn't win every year but the advantage still exists. How do we remedy this? Simple, split them into two teams.

ardmacha

Flukey wrote: »

Gaffer91, you keep on going on about this unfair advantage but can't explain how it manifests itself. If population is an issue then it should affect all counties proportionately, so the populations of Kerry and Kilkenny are relevant. Like most of the anti-Dublin stuff we see in this forum, this unfair advantage is a figment of the imagination. .

This is simplistic. Like the old adage about a good big man beating a good small man, a well organised big county will generally have an advantage of a well organised small county. In the above list Monaghan will probably not win the All Ireland and the limited depth of their panel will contribute to this, although they are well organised and managed. If Dublin is to remain its present size then any sort of equal competition will only arise if it is not well organised, and nobody wants that.

That said Kildare and Meath have populations that should mean that one or other of them is in contention at any point and they should look to their own organisation, as should Louth where hurling is not played much.

Flukey

gaffer91 wrote: »

I have explained it but will do so again: Dublin win more games than they would if they were split in two.

That's an opinion or an assumption, not a fact. So no, you have not explained it. In fact, splitting Dublin would give us an advantage, as we'd have two teams while all others would only have one.

gaffer91 wrote: »

It's not proven by any hard facts. The only way to tell for sure if it gives Dublin an unfair advantage would be to split them in two.

Even you acknowledge yourself that it is not proven by hard facts. We can prove the opposite though by comparing the populations of counties and their rates of success. So there is no need to split Dublin or any other county as we can already clearly see that it is not an issue. There is no correlation. You could equally argue that all counties should be split in two to see if all counties have their success proportionately reduced. Dublin may have the largest population, but that does not make it a special case above the 31 other counties. If you are going to split counties then it would be done to more than just Dublin. Others with large populations and ones with a high level of success should all be split at the same time.

gaffer91 wrote: »

The fact you're getting so worked up about this sensible and workable proposal tells me I've struck a nerve. I think deep down you know that Dublin wouldn't be as successful if they were split and that's why you will defend their unfair advantage to the death.

First it is not a sensible proposal. Secondly I can't and have not defended the unfair advantage, as there isn't one. I am typing posts, not getting worked up. If I am getting worked up, then so must you. Deep down or right up at the surface it is the same for me. In your case you are actually closer to me, in that you acknowledge there is no proven advantage. So whatever about deep down with me, we can say that at or extremely close to the surface, you know there is no advantage.

gaffer91 wrote: »

Most of the rest of the post rambles on about Mayo players from 1951 or if the Nore was diverted and I can't really make head nor tail of it.

Now you understand how others feel about your equally nonsensical thesis and idea to address this non-existent issue.


Dublin are successful at present because they have good players. The larger population is not why that happens. Exceptional players can come from any county and any size of population. All of Ireland's counties, from Dublin down through the population sizes can find 30 or 40 good players to build a squad out of. Every county has the players that we talk of as being good enough to play for any county, but can't get on their own first team. So even the smallest counties are capable of finding enough good players to build a squad and have some left over. Dublin may have a larger pick, but that does not mean their best players are going to better than those of any other counties. As we've seen, some of the greatest players of all time have come from counties with considerably smaller populations.

Having a larger pick also doesn't mean Dublin can add any more to their squads. So having a larger amount of quality players doesn't help us. About 30 or 40 are on the squad and the rest are left looking on, exactly the same as all other counties. Dublin just have more looking on. The players that don't play are not an advantage. Their level of ability has nothing to do with how many people are living in their county and the population doesn't make it easier for them to get in the squad. Outside of people's imaginations, Dublin's population has no advantage to them.

Flukey

Gaffer91, we do understand what you are saying. To put it in simple terms you could say Dublin has 1000 top quality players and county X only has 100, so that is clearly an advantage. It isn't though. Dublin and county X can only field the exact same amount of players and there is no reason why the best of Dublin's 1000 would be better than the best of county X's 100. What would give Dublin an advantage would be to split Dublin into more teams, so that Dublin could use more of those players. Now that would be unfair. We should, as we are, be restricted to having the same amount of teams so that we can't take advantage of our larger population. Split Dublin in two if you want, but that would only give Dublin an unfair advantage. Nobody wants that.

salmocab

Im happy to concede as Ive said before that Dublin has a population advantage but its not unfair and keeping repeating the phrase unfair population advantage doesn't make it so but that said if Dublin was split in two and lets just say North and south as thats the easiest and most obvious way then what? Based on current players and relative strengths of other counties (for now most are weak but to be fair its unlikely that Meath and Kildare won't be able to get their houses in order at some stage soon) its likely that DN would still win Leinster in football as most of the current team are northsiders probably beating DS in the semis as your not only happy to disadvantage Dublin by splitting the county but seem to think it would be okay to further disadvantage them by putting both on the same side of the draw. Then DN progress to 1/4 stage and probably win that before coming up against one of Mayo Kerry or Donegal one of whom may have beaten DS in the 1/4 final because they got a decent draw in the qualifiers. How did that make either Leinster or the AI better? Then we have hurling where again based on where the current team come from we have one stronger team this time DS. DS get beaten as soon as they come up against Galway or KK then its qualifier time for them where they join DN in the qualifier series. Hurling certainly doesn't do well out of this either in Leinster or the AI series. All thats happened really is interest has been lost in both codes and people from Dublin have been denied the chance to represent their county. On top of that no one else in Leinster has got any better because Dublin aren't the reason everyone else is currently playing bad.

Stephen15

Or another idea would be to split up up Dublin into Dun Laoghaire Rathdown, South Dublin, Dublin City and Fingal

gaiscioch

sammy37 wrote: »

Also if kerry and cork were moved to connaught with leitrim and sligo moving to munster along with antrim going to leinster. Down could go down to munster and meath back over to connaught. That should even up all the provinces and we would then have a proper provincial championship.

hehe.

gaiscioch

thelad95 wrote: »

Sure why not move Roscommon footballers to Leinster and Cork hurlers to Leinster. Am I doing this right..?

Even if the hypothetical situation did arrive, Dublin would still end up playing all their games in Croker...

No, they wouldn't because residents will object to Croker, it will close down and be sold off bit-by-bit as mementos and all All-Irelands will be played in Athlone forever more (near the soon-to-be-built Chinese city).