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Daughter forced to believe in God

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    #62
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,022 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Aineoil wrote: »
    Interesting thread.

    The bottom line is that if you want your child to attend a school with whatever religious persuasion and you don't really believe in that persuasion there are going to be consequences.

    Talking to the class teacher or principal in a Catholic school about not believing in god maybe not the best way forward but then again you never know.....

    The bottom line is that parents want their child to attend A school. They are legally obliged to ensure their children are educated, or else they can be sent to jail.

    The local school comes with a load of religious guff added in, like 96% of primary schools in Ireland. But I suppose it's the parents' fault for not living in an area where they can apply at conception to get their child into one of the 4% schools??

    Are you suggesting that there could be repercussions on the child's education because of the (lack of) religion of their parent - that is in no way acceptable.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #63
    AshOB
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭AshOB


    Apologies if this has already been posted but I don't have time to read through the whole thread. OP should find useful information at teach don't preach.ie


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    #64
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    AshOB wrote: »
    Apologies if this has already been posted but I don't have time to read through the whole thread. OP should find useful information at teach don't preach.ie


    Hasnt already been posted and it is useful.


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    #65
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    The way I see it is, which do you place higher: your principals or your children.

    I know of a few people who put their foot down and said, we are not baptising the kids just to get them into the local school, and it then causes all sorts of headaches for both them and the children.


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    #66
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    The way I see it is, which do you place higher: your principals or your children.

    I know of a few people who put their foot down and said, we are not baptising the kids just to get them into the local school, and it then causes all sorts of headaches for both them and the children.

    Yet the same people who claim "Oh its best for the child education wise to get them into the school" would have a massive issue making their child a Muslim if it would benefit them (the child),

    Keep in mind that they would have to partake in Muslim practices in school and even outside of school time as part of this so it won't be just in name,

    This isn't about principals, this is about the child. Allowing any child to be indoctrinated into any faith does them a disservice,.

    Nobody wouldn't think it ok for a Jewish family to indoctrinated their child into the catholic faith just for a school place (cause you know you want the best for your child), so why would anyone think its ok for a atheist?


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    #67
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    The way I see it is, which do you place higher: your principals or your children.

    I know of a few people who put their foot down and said, we are not baptising the kids just to get them into the local school, and it then causes all sorts of headaches for both them and the children.

    Abandoning your principles is not something to be done trivially. The OP is trying to do the the best thing for their child by securing for them the best possible education - one free of (in their view and mine) harmful religious indoctrination.

    Fighting to defend their principles (and constitutional entitlements) to benefit their children is to be admired, not criticized.


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    #68
    Rega
    Registered Users Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Rega


    Hey OP, I'm a primary school teacher in a small country school. Had lots of kids of different faiths in my class over the years.

    Just go in and say to the teacher that you don't want your child participating in the RE programme. It's not a big deal. The teacher will give her work to do during RE time or allow her read a library book.

    Hope it works out well for you and your daughter and she enjoys her new school.


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    #69
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    swampgas wrote: »
    Abandoning your principles is not something to be done trivially. The OP is trying to do the the best thing for their child by securing for them the best possible education - one free of (in their view and mine) harmful religious indoctrination.

    Fighting to defend their principles (and constitutional entitlements) to benefit their children is to be admired, not criticized.

    Absolutely, I completely agree with you.

    However I am not sure why you are arguing against a point that I never made.

    My criticism is where people place their principals above the welfare of their children, and where their children are disadvantaged as a result. I made this point very clearly.


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    #70
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Yet the same people who claim "Oh its best for the child education wise to get them into the school" would have a massive issue making their child a Muslim if it would benefit them (the child),

    Keep in mind that they would have to partake in Muslim practices in school and even outside of school time as part of this so it won't be just in name,

    This isn't about principals, this is about the child. Allowing any child to be indoctrinated into any faith does them a disservice,.

    Nobody wouldn't think it ok for a Jewish family to indoctrinated their child into the catholic faith just for a school place (cause you know you want the best for your child), so why would anyone think its ok for a atheist?


    Thats completely hypothetical, and the nub of the issue here is people trying to deal with the realities of the here and now in Ireland.


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    #71
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Thats completely hypothetical, and the nub of the issue here is people trying to deal with the realities of the here and now in Ireland.

    So the here in now in Ireland is what exactly?, its ok for an atheist to put their childs best interests to the side and indoctrinate them into a religion for the best "education"?

    Your argument seem to be that its fine in a situation where the child might be disadvantaged otherwise, is this your thinking?,


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    #72
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    My criticism is where people place their principals above the welfare of their children, and where their children are disadvantaged as a result. I made this point very clearly.

    If kids are disadvantaged for not being Catholic surely we should be making an equal playing field for all children rather than expecting people to baptise their kids under duress.


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    #73
    skydish79
    Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭skydish79


    I'd double check that the teacher and principal actually said that before you go in guns blazing


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    #74
    TheQuietFella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭TheQuietFella


    sheesh wrote: »
    come on they defended it against a small child.

    it is rather an awkward situation that the op is in he needs to tell the school that he is a lapsed catholic and has never given his daughter any religious instruction ask that she be exempted from it, that puts the ball in their court

    Take the child out of the school ffs!
    The parent is sending the child to a school & he wants to call the shots!!!
    Doesn't or shouldn't work this way!


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    #75
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Absolutely, I completely agree with you.

    However I am not sure why you are arguing against a point that I never made.

    My criticism is where people place their principals above the welfare of their children, and where their children are disadvantaged as a result. I made this point very clearly.

    Fair enough, I see what you're trying to say. However in this specific case I think it's clear that the child will benefit from being accommodated as a non-Catholic, and this will be better for the child than trying to get the child to convert to Catholicism, or getting the child to play along by pretending to be Catholic.

    Unfortunately there are some issues which must be faced when they arise. Playing along with a flawed system "for the sake of the children" is just kicking the can down the road for the next generation. It also risks sending a message to children that "the system" is more powerful than you are, and that standing up for your constitutional rights is a waste of time. That's quite a defeatist view, IMO.

    .


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    #76
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,141 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    bajer101 wrote: »
    My seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an Educate Together school for logistical reasons. I'm a single Dad and am an atheist. I have always told my daughter that she can believe whatever she wants but that it would be better to wait until she is older to make her mind up as it is a very complicated subject.

    I knew that moving her to a Catholic school would involve some religious teaching, but I thought that in this day and age it would be minimal. The trouble started on the first day when the class were colouring in a picture of Jesus and my daughter announced that she didn't believe in God. Her teacher told her that if said that again that she would be sent back to her old school! The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this. Over the next few days the subject came up again and she was sent to the principal's office and the principal told her that she had to believe in God!

    My daughter is very upset over this and has feigned sickness to avoid going to school and last night she even disabled the alarm on my phone so that I wouldn't wake up in time (her plan worked!).

    I am not sure what to do about this. The way I see it I have a few options.
    1. Take her out of the school straight away as it is obviously very religiously oriented and there will be no good outcome if she is left there.
    2. Get my daughter to play along and go with the flow.
    3. Talk to the teacher and principal and try to come up with a reasonable solution.
    4. Go all out nuclear and kick up a huge fuss and demand that my daughter be allowed opt out of all religious activity.

    Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

    Take option 1- problem sorted.
    BTW are you certain that the principal told her that 'she had to believe in God' ?
    Even 50 years ago that was unhard of.


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    #77
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    wrt40 wrote: »
    He signed the child up as a catholic. Some may not call that lying but I would.

    How is it lying exactly? I look forward to your explanation,

    Just because Catholic schools are state funded does not mean they have to make exceptions to their ethos. Their ethos is to teach Catholic children the bible.

    I think you'll find the OP has every right to opt their child out of religion in a state funded school:
    Article 44 Bunreacht na hEireann
    4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.


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    #78
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Take option 1- problem sorted.
    BTW are you certain that the principal told her that 'she had to believe in God' ?
    Even 50 years ago that was unhard of.

    Thats odd, its something I've heard more then once during my time in primary school.

    Sometimes some very narrow minded people can't get their heads around the fact that a child (or adult) just doesn't believe in a god. These people can often be very well educated people, but that doesn't change their narrow viewpoint.


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    #79
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    TheQuietFella wrote: »
    Take the child out of the school ffs!
    A lot of places only have Catholic schools available so this isn't really much use in the majority of cases.
    The parent is sending the child to a school & he wants to call the shots!!!
    I don't think it's unreasonable for a parent to say that bullying carried out by teachers or principals is unacceptable.
    Doesn't or shouldn't work this way!
    It would be much better to have a secular pubic school system so as to avoid this sort of unprofessionalism from staff in the future.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #80
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    OP you gave them a baptismal cert. They assumed the child was Catholic. You could have told them she was baptised but that you are no longer part of the church or declined to give them the certificate in the first place.

    Put them right in a polite way.

    As the child was effectively registered with the school as a Catholic (by ommission) the school think they are acting in the parents beliefs.

    Nearly every school in Ireland will have kids in the class who have different religions or none at all. There are methods of facilitating them with regards to religious education.

    But you basically lead them to believe your child is being raised as a Catholic. You need to correct them and THEN see how they deal with the matter.


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    #81
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ash23 wrote: »
    As the child was effectively registered with the school as a Catholic (by ommission) the school think they are acting in the parents beliefs.

    Even if this was the case and what the op said actually happened the schools handling of it leaves alot to be desired and it was over the top.

    Sending a child to the principals office was over the top, the teacher would have been better off having a quick word with the op when the child was being collected.

    Having a baptism cert doesn't make somebody catholic,

    Hell I have one and I'm not catholic and the church won't change their records to reflect this so as far as the catholic church is concerned I'm still a member of the church. The reality of the situation is I haven't seen myself as a member of the catholic church since around the age of 7.


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    #82
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,141 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Thats odd, its something I've heard more then once during my time in primary school.

    .


    I could go into a debate with you but the bottom line is I just do not believe you.


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    #83
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    I could go into a debate with you but the bottom line is I just do not believe you.

    Thats fair enough, your entitled to not believe something that actually happened to me. You can continue to believe that nobody would be so closed minded, but reality dictates otherwise of course....I certainly wish it wasn't the case,

    At the end of the day as somebody who has always been very clear on their non-belief of god while in school i can tell you that many teachers and priests don't take such a claim very well.

    I've experienced a lecturing from a priest, being thrown out of religion class just for asking questions more then once, being told that other religions/faith are only made up and wrong and heard numerous different versions of "you must believe in something", "sure god exists you must believe in him" etc etc.

    You'd expect well educated people to be open minded to such things, but the fact that primary teacher training takes places in a catholic ethos organizations really kills off such open mindedness when it comes to religion in so so many teachers....though not all.


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    #84
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Even if this was the case and what the op said actually happened the schools handling of it leaves alot to be desired and it was over the top.

    The OP registered the child with a Catholic school and provided a baptismal certificate indicating that the child was part of the Catholic church. The OP should have indicated the most up to date information about the child which is that the child is not a part of the church any longer. If a parent fails to provide the school with information that is accurate and up to date, they cannot then take offence when the school act on the information they have to hand.
    Sending a child to the principals office was over the top, the teacher would have been better off having a quick word with the op when the child was being collected.

    I agree but we weren't in the class and are only hearing one side of this. That's why I suggest OP talks to the school. Perhaps the child was sent to the principal to clarify what was in the child's records in case there had been instruction from the parent that had been overlooked? Perhaps the child was being very disruptive about the matter?

    We don't know and the OP doesn't know the full scenario. Again that would be why talking to the school would be a good idea.

    Having a baptism cert doesn't make somebody catholic,

    Hell I have one and I'm not catholic and the church won't change their records to reflect this so as far as the catholic church is concerned I'm still a member of the church. The reality of the situation is I haven't seen myself as a member of the catholic church since around the age of 7.

    Giving a baptismal certificate to a Catholic school when you are enrolling a child would strongly suggest that your child is Catholic and unless the school are given information to counteract what has been indicated, how are they to know the child is to be excluded from religious instruction and preparation for Catholic Sacraments along with the rest of their class?

    If you hand someone a document which is evidence of your joining a certain religion, unless you correct them that it is no longer valid, how are they to know that you are no longer a member of that religion?

    Op should have either advised the child had been baptised but they were not to be part of religion in school as they are no longer practicing Catholics or the OP should have never given the certificate and just said the child is an atheist.


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    #85
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    eviltwin wrote: »
    If kids are disadvantaged for not being Catholic surely we should be making an equal playing field for all children rather than expecting people to baptise their kids under duress.


    Absolutely we should. So whens it going to happen?


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    #86
    dr strangelove
    Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭dr strangelove


    Option 5 - Ask your daughter what she wants to do.


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    #87
    Cymini Sectores
    Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭Cymini Sectores


    OP, this goes without saying, take her out at once; the poor girl. Leave religion/God out of it for a moment... she obviously is not happy there.


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    #88
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Cymini Sectores wrote: »
    OP, this goes without saying, take her out at once; the poor girl. Leave religion/God out of it for a moment... she obviously is not happy there.

    and in the mean time she shouldn't receive a education?


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    #89
    NewCorkLad
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭NewCorkLad


    dr strangelove wrote: »
    Option 5 - Ask your daughter what she wants to do.

    She is seven, she wants to sit at home and watch tv.
    Cymini Sectores wrote: »
    OP, this goes without saying, take her out at once; the poor girl. Leave religion/God out of it for a moment... she obviously is not happy there.

    She has only been there a week, of course she is gonna find it hard at first, she is the new girl with no friends. Pulling her out of the school at this stage would be just stupid and he will just have the same thing again at a new school. She needs time to get to know people and hopefully will get comfortable there.

    OP just needs to speak to the teacher and principal to let them know his beliefs and wishes(as he is going to do) and see what they do from there.


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    #90
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,141 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    dr strangelove wrote: »
    Option 5 - Ask your daughter what she wants to do.

    She's 7 ! You think she's going to weigh up her options, look at the pro's & cons, come to an informed decision?


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    #91
    Cymini Sectores
    Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭Cymini Sectores


    Cabaal wrote: »
    and in the mean time she shouldn't receive a education?

    She can receive her education in another school.


This discussion has been closed.
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