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Daughter forced to believe in God

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    #32
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    wrt40 wrote: »
    OK, not lie but just don't go around announcing your an atheist. Let the dust settle and just play along from now on. It's a Catholic school and if you lied to get in then what else do you expect?

    Some understanding and acceptance from a religious order would be a nice start.
    I don't think it sets a good example to a child to "play along".

    The OP has said he will not stop his child following a faith so is doing the right thing by putting the kid into a school where he/she can get exposure to the belief system. The school should follow the same morals


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    #33
    JohnBee
    Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭JohnBee


    Im trying to remember the source and exact words but a famous US politican quote comes to mind which essential was "atheists shouldnt be allowed to vote".

    The attitude of the school illustrates the commonly held perception that atheists are somehow evil. Ironically, despite the fact that a muslim or jew or hindhu would follow a faith that is not permitted and considered false by catholics, they no doubt would not have had this reception for 2 reasons. Number one is fear on the part of the school that they would be chastised for discrimintation. Number two that despite having a different religion, catholics would still "respect" them.

    Atheists can be discriminated against without fear. Perhaps an option is to highlight your true noodly leanings and state that as a Pastafarian your child could not take part in catholic religious classes.

    Fundamentally though it sickens me. In no way would they say to a muslim that they cant believe in Allah and that they have to start following catholicism. It might be worthwhile for the OP to find out if any other faiths are in attendance at the school and find out what reception they received.


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    #34
    wrt40
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭wrt40


    You can't seriously expect the op to use his 7 year old daughter as a tool to fight the corrupt system. I think you're all seriously deluded in thinking the catholic school has any obligated to make exceptions to their ethos. On the subject of other religions being accepted, I've only ever seen that from wealthy families. Make of that what you will but I've no doubt a generous donation for the school roof fund would see a drastic change in their attitude.


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    #35
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    OP there isn't nearly enough information in your post to be able to say anything conclusively one way or the other, but before you get yourself worked up into a frenzy, I would suggest that you follow proper procedure to resolve the situation -


    Talk with your daughter's teacher first. If the outcome of those talks are unsatisfactory, schedule an appointment to meet with the principal.

    If you're still unsatisfied with the outcome, you should consider engaging the services of a solicitor who will be able to advise you on drafting a letter to the Board of Management of the school, and whether you should make an official complaint to Gardaí regarding your daughter being harassed by the other pupils and the staff in the school. A Garda liaison officer will take a complaint of harassment seriously.

    At that point, you may not need to write a letter to the Dept. of Education and Skills, but your solicitor may be able to advise you on this. I personally would hope that the matter could be resolved long before you need to escalate it to that level, merely for your daughters sake, as the procedure can take time, and in the meantime this can be quite stressful on both you and your daughter.

    No child should have to put up with that level of harassment, simple as that.


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    #36
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    wrt40 wrote: »
    You can't seriously expect the op to use his 7 year old daughter as a tool to fight the corrupt system. I think you're all seriously deluded in thinking the catholic school has any obligated to make exceptions to their ethos. .

    So if for example a Jewish person lives in an area that only has Catholics ethos schools you think that the Jewish family should shut up and allow their child to be thought the Catholic faith as the true faith while in school? ..

    You think they are unreasonable to expect their kid should not be told their faith is the wrong faith?

    They shouldn't have the option to opt their child out of Catholic religion in a tax payer funded school?


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    #37
    wrt40
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭wrt40


    Cabaal wrote: »
    So if for example a Jewish person lives in an area that only has Catholics ethos schools you think that the Jewish family should shut up and allow their child to be thought the Catholic faith as the true faith while in school? ..

    You think they are unreasonable to expect their kid should not be told their faith is the wrong faith?

    They shouldn't have the option to opt their child out of Catholic religion in a tax payer funded school?
    It all depends on whether he lied to get into the school and the extent of the lie, I.e did he go as far as getting the child baptized.

    Should educate together make exceptions to their ethos and begin enforcing Muslim values?


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    #38
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    wrt40 wrote: »
    It all depends on whether he lied to get into the school and the extent of the lie, I.e did he go as far as getting the child baptized.

    Maybe I'm missing something, where did the op say they claimed they were Catholic on entry?

    Also what about people who change faiths? Do you not enable them any rights? Do you think they should be force fed the Catholic religion and told their faith is a lie?
    Should educate together make exceptions to their ethos and begin enforcing Muslim values?

    What are you even on about?

    Nobody is looking for the ops school to instill other values in anybody else, the op is merely looking for their child to opt out of a faith they don't believe in, a reasonable request in a tax payer funded school.

    Do a think a Muslim, Jewish etc person should be able to opt out of the Catholic faith teaching in a tax payer funded school that they as tax payers pay for. You're damn right I do.


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    #39
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    Hi all, OP here. Thank you for all the replies and apologies for not replying sooner - I'm not long in from work. To add a bit more information, my daughter was baptised. Her mother (who no longer lives in Ireland) wanted it done. i never lied to the school in any way. They asked for a baptismal cert, but they never asked anything about my beliefs or my daughter's beliefs. The school is associated with an order of Nuns, but I have never seen a Nun there. I changed school as we were supposed to move house during the summer, but that all fell through. There is also a child care facility beside the new school which do morning drop offs and afternoon collections, which suits me better for work. The school is also on my way to work, so even though the house move fell through, it's still a better option logistically. There probably isn't even a place in her old school now as there was already a waiting list.

    My daughter never expressed much of an opinion about religion one way or the other until this. Someone suggested that she may be exaggerating, but I don't think that she is - certainly not about the teacher telling her that she would be sent back to her old school as that is not something that she could make up. She may have picked up what the principal said incorrectly, as she did also mention that the principal said that she had to belief in God to make her Communion. It could be that the school aren't aware of my position and assumed that I would want them to enforce their ethos, but they knew she was in an Educate Together school previously and they should have contacted me if they were unsure.

    I don't really want to go in all guns blazing demanding justice - I just want to find the best outcome without compromising mine or her morals. She said to me herself that if she pretended to believe in God that would be a lie and would be wrong. I'm quite proud of her over all this and I need to make sure that I don't let her down, but at the same time finding a reasonable solution. I am not sure what the situation is in these schools regarding "opting out". If that is an option, it may be the best, but there is also the problem of her being isolated and that may make the issue with the other kids worse.

    I've decided to keep her out of school tomorrow as I am having a procedure in hospital tomorrow and she is having a sleepover in her Nana's. I'll take time over the next few days to work out how best to proceed. I reckon I'll have to talk to the teacher first and see what the reaction is when I tell her that I'm an atheist and that I want Emily to decided for herself. If I get the vibe that they are going to try and force their beliefs on her, I will have to move her and take it further.


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    #40
    wrt40
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭wrt40


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Maybe I'm missing something, where did the op say they claimed they were Catholic on entry?

    Also what about people who change faiths? Do you not enable them any rights? Do you think they should be force fed the Catholic religion and told their faith is a lie?



    What are you even on about?

    Nobody is looking for the ops school to instill other values in anybody else, the op is merely looking for their child to opt out of a faith they don't believe in, a reasonable request in a tax payer funded school.

    Do a think a Muslim, Jewish etc person should be able to opt out of the Catholic faith teaching in a tax payer funded school that they as tax payers pay for. You're damn right I do.
    He didn't, that's why I said it depends. And what you think or feel doesn't change the fact that it's not how things work.


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    #41
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    wrt40 wrote: »
    Assuming you lied and told them your daughter is catholic in order to get her into the school and possibly even went as far as getting your child baptised in order to get a place in a catholic school, then I would suggest you keep up that lie and get your daughter to play along and pretend to be a good catholic. It's easily done, we've all had to do it. Mumble when you are saying your prayers etc. It's the price you pay for enrolling in a Catholic school. I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm just stating the facts. I'd imagine they're feeling a bit pissed off and cheated. There's no use lying to get in and then turning around once you're through the doors and saying ha ha I lied I'm not really a Catholic and I think you're all brain washed nutters.

    Problem is you've already been exposed, so some extra lying may be needed such as saying your daughter had doubts but you've spoken to her and all is fine now.
    What would lead you to think that the OP lied about anything.

    This is why religion should be taught in personal time if the parents believe in a god then they should teach that superstition in their own time not with the tax money that should be used teaching them something useful.

    OP I would talk to the teacher and the principle,explain your position and see how it goes from there.


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    If you are a child who says that you believe in god, that has been forced upon you. If you are a child who says you dont believe in God that has also been forced upon them.

    You sir have forced that upon the child and then sent her to a Catholic school.


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    #43
    EunanMac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭EunanMac


    bajer101 wrote: »
    It could be that the school aren't aware of my position and assumed that I would want them to enforce their ethos, but they knew she was in an Educate Together school previously and they should have contacted me if they were unsure.

    How on earth would they be aware if you didn't tell them ?
    Quite a few Catholic schools have non Catholics in attendance, and they make alternative arrangements for them, but you're going to have to let them know. They are not mind readers.


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    #44
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,019 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If you are a child who says that you believe in god, that has been forced upon you.

    True.
    If you are a child who says you dont believe in God that has also been forced upon them.

    How on earth do you figure that out? Your previous sentence entirely contradicts it.
    It's also entirely irrelevant for the purposes of this thread what the OP chooses to say or not say to his daughter about religion. He doesn't want his daughter to receive religious instruction, end of.

    The child has a constitutional right to an education, and to attend a state-funded school without receiving religious instruction.

    You sir have forced that upon the child and then sent her to a Catholic school.

    90+% of primary schools are catholic. Many areas have NO non-religious school option at all, I live in one :mad:

    So you reckon that the OP should just shut up and let the school indoctrinate his child against his wishes, is that it? Why? Would you say the same thing to a muslim, jew, hindu etc? or is it just atheists who should have no rights?

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #45
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,019 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    EunanMac wrote: »
    How on earth would they be aware if you didn't tell them ?

    It sounds ridiculously ignorant and bullying behaviour, whether they knew or not about the OP's views they should never have treated a child in this way.

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #46
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    wrt40 wrote: »
    He didn't, that's why I said it depends. And what you think or feel doesn't change the fact that it's not how things work.

    Really?
    That's not how it works, so schools don't allow opt outs?

    Damn, loads of people I know and also here on boards must be all lieing in that case.


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    #47
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If you are a child who says that you believe in god, that has been forced upon you. If you are a child who says you dont believe in God that has also been forced upon them.

    You sir have forced that upon the child and then sent her to a Catholic school.

    That's nonsense. She can believe whatever she wants to and will make her own mind up. She doesn't believe in unicorns either - did I force that on her?


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    #48
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,205 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    OP sounds like there's a bit of communication lacking, so I'd echo other peoples advice and go for a chat with the teacher and principal, hopefully they'll be reasonable about this. They very well could have thought they were carrying out your wishes in enforcing Catholic ethos (though their behaviour sounds fairly appalling in doing so)

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #49
    TheQuietFella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭TheQuietFella


    You're an atheist sending their child to a catholic school & you have an issue with a staff member defending their sacred beliefs? Get a f**king grip.
    You shouldn't have sent her there in the first place!


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    #50
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    TheQuietFella wrote: »
    You're an atheist sending their child to a catholic school & you have an issue with a staff member defending their sacred beliefs? Get a f**king grip.
    You shouldn't have sent her there in the first place!

    Your point would be ok if the school was funded exclusively by the church, teachers salaries paid by the church then they could set the rules. But scholes are funded by the GOVT so your point doesn't make any sense


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    #51
    TheQuietFella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭TheQuietFella


    To me it doesn't matter who pays the salary.
    This person defended their faith regardless of the offender & this guy
    wants her punished for it? What is this country coming to?


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    #52
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    TheQuietFella wrote: »
    To me it doesn't matter who pays the salary.
    This person defended their faith regardless of the offender & this guy
    wants her punished for it? What is this country coming to?

    Not been funny but I don't follow you

    who is:
    this person
    offender
    this guy
    her


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    #53
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    TheQuietFella wrote: »
    To me it doesn't matter who pays the salary.
    This person defended their faith regardless of the offender & this guy
    wants her punished for it? What is this country coming to?

    It seems to me that the child is getting punished for not sharing the faith.


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    #54
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    TheQuietFella wrote: »
    To me it doesn't matter who pays the salary.
    This person defended their faith regardless of the offender & this guy
    wants her punished for it? What is this country coming to?

    Ah, so indoctrination of children is defending the faith? How dare people not believe in god. I'm offended.


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    #55
    TheQuietFella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭TheQuietFella


    Gerry T wrote: »
    Not been funny but I don't follow you

    who is:
    this person (Teacher)
    offender (Child)
    this guy (Parent)
    her (Teacher)

    Apologies Gerry! I'm losing the plot a little.
    I'm sure it was meant as a gentle chastisement of the child.
    They were not put against the wall to be stoned.


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    #56
    letsseehere14
    Registered Users Posts: 438 ✭✭letsseehere14


    I don't fully believe this OP. It just doesnt fit. Adults acting in such a way, a young girl in primary school whos actions can only be described as so unchildlike. If it is true, the solution of talking to the teacher, then the principal is the obvious and only option. But it had been brought here, with what I would describe as an unbelievable story.
    Adults, especially teachers these days are trained in how to communicate with children. I cannot for the life of me, knowing teachers in catholic and non catholic schools, see this situation, as described ever happening. Leaving them selves so obviously open of challenge, legally or otherwise.
    I also know from experience that children do not usually open up about bullying from fellow students so readily and so quickly. If students were "ganging up" on her, the teacher or principal have not reacted, to me that is a bigger issue than what is being described here.


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    #57
    Aineoil
    Registered Users Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    Interesting thread.

    The bottom line is that if you want your child to attend a school with whatever religious persuasion and you don't really believe in that persuasion there are going to be consequences.

    Talking to the class teacher or principal in a Catholic school about not believing in god maybe not the best way forward but then again you never know.....


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    #58
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    TheQuietFella wrote: »
    Apologies Gerry! I'm losing the plot a little.
    I'm sure it was meant as a gentle chastisement of the child.
    They were not put against the wall to be stoned.

    Thanks, now I get it :) I could understand a priest having that attitude, but a teacher and principal is different. I would have thought a teacher would want children to see there are two sides to everything and neither might be right or wrong. Just different perspectives and ways of thinking. But then religion and education don't really get on that well.
    A gentle chastisement could be ignored, but the OP did say his child didn't want to goto school, so for the child its not such a small thing


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    #59
    sheesh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭sheesh


    TheQuietFella wrote: »
    To me it doesn't matter who pays the salary.
    This person defended their faith regardless of the offender & this guy
    wants her punished for it? What is this country coming to?

    come on they defended it against a small child.

    it is rather an awkward situation that the op is in he needs to tell the school that he is a lapsed catholic and has never given his daughter any religious instruction ask that she be exempted from it, that puts the ball in their court


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    #60
    letsseehere14
    Registered Users Posts: 438 ✭✭letsseehere14


    I'm just trying to add perspective and think out of the box here. Remember he has not spoken to the school and if I have missed it, they have not contacted him.
    So this entire story is being based off what a seven year old girl, who has just started a new school, knowing noone there, has told her father. No input here from the schools side. Perhaps she isnt settling in and is looking for excuses not to go or to be swapped back to her old school. Perhaps the teachers "threat" to send her back is really a request by her to ger father to go back.
    It is rare a child gets sent to the principal. certainly rare for it to happen in the first two weeks of school returning. That kind of action is usually reserved for much more serious situations such as violence. , stealing, bullying and so in and I would imagine usually is accompanied with the parent being contacted.


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    #61
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    It shouldn't be an issue opting out of once the school know your position. If it wasn't made clear perhaps they assumed you were rc and your daughter was trying it on with them.
    Threatening a child is wrong and should however be addressed.
    II'm non denominational Christian and have my son starting in the local r c school next year.
    Some of my family had their kids in convents and they just studied during religious classes.


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