Daughter forced to believe in God

GreeBo

bajer101 wrote: »

And again I will repeat what actually happened. My daughter simply stated that she did not believe in God. The other kids were not forced to hear that God doesn't exist. They simply heard a child voice a dissenting opinion. The only person who was coerced was my daughter who was told by the teacher and then the other children that there is a God. You seem to need to have facts explained to you several times before you accept them, so I'll just copy what I have just typed so that I can paste it to your next few replies.

We are not debating what actually happened, we are debating what the teacher should have done.
You are missing the delicate fact that we are no longer discussing what happened, instead we are discussing what SHOULD have happened, so you can cut and paste your misplaced condescension wherever you want, thanks.

The option proposed above was that the teacher should have decided to start a class level discussion on whether or not God exists. Im merely pointing out that that would be exactly the scenario you have an issue, albeit from the other side.

PopePalpatine

Pwindedd wrote: »

Ok I'll bite - isn't that the crux of the issue, we are coming this from the standpoint of our convictions. Some people are religious and enjoy religion and it's benefits. Pro-religion. Others are not religious and don't enjoy religion and feel it doesn't benefit them. Anti-religion. (I could take umbrage to use of the word anti, but as this isn't the thread for it I'll roll with it...Alti-religion anyone?)

In the A&A forum though this is probably to be expected. Whilst all are welcome the majority of posters might tend to lean towards the non-believing persuasion and come here to discuss topics with like minded individuals.

Why do you feel Anti religion is more of an agenda in this particular discussion than the Catholic position of majority rules, please don't rock the boat?

Given what some have said in this thread, I'd say it's more like "GET TO THE BACK OF THE BUS, HEATHEN!"

Mary63

I have teenagers living in my house and they are the ones causing me mental health difficulties,not the other way around.
Now can we have the research that shows that telling children to consider others beliefs before speaking out results in mental health difficulties.
Its the encouraging of children to express every tedious little thought at length,and convoluted explanations of why they should do as they are told is what is causing huge discipline problems in the classroom and leading to teachers ending up on anti depression medication and long term sick leave.
I know a family of athiest children and they are obnoxious know alls,their parents think the sun shines out of their rear ends but unfortuneatly no one else especially their poor teachers agree.They take over every conversation bragging about their speech and drama exams etc,etc and they whine non stop.I really want to tell them to get lost but I know their parents would think i was disrespecting them.

Pwindedd

GreeBo wrote: »

You as a parent of the child should, or the teacher should prepare them?

The numbers are irrelevant, its a Catholic school with a cross on the wall, until thats removed the default will be to teach Catholocism.

Well that would depend on the situation, to answer your question I would say both
In this particular instance the situation arose in class and instead of accepting all views on belief, the teacher mistakenly and effectively endorsed the bullying, from other class members, by their response to the child's statement. You are dead right, 7 year olds are impressionable, and it's the job of teachers (and parents alike) to guide them in acceptance and tolerance. A very bad example was set in this case. But that's just my opinion.

Agreed it's a Catholic school, and Catholicism was indeed being taught at the time, unfortunately tolerance and grace...mmmn not so much.

Gerry T

GreeBo wrote: »

What about the Catholic parents who have specifically chosen to send their children to a Catholic school to learn about Catholicism?
They dont want their child being forced to hear that God doesnt exist any more than you would want your child to be taught creationism.

Also, bear in mind that these are highly impressionable 7 year olds, if it was a class of 16 year olds a frank, open discussion would be more appropriate.

If over 90% of schools are catholic church run, and by church accounts only 30% of Irish are practising Catholics that's the problem. What you say doe have merit though. But to get it to work the church would have to hand back say 60% of the schools so people would have a choice of church run with catholic RE lessons or state run with either no RE or a general RE lesson.

My percentages may be off but the principal would be needed

Roquentin

Mary63 wrote: »

I have teenagers living in my house and they are the ones causing me mental health difficulties,not the other way around.
Now can we have the research that shows that telling children to consider others beliefs before speaking out results in mental health difficulties.
Its the encouraging of children to express every tedious little thought at length,and convoluted explanations of why they should do as they are told is what is causing huge discipline problems in the classroom and leading to teachers ending up on anti depression medication and long term sick leave.
I know a family of athiest children and they are obnoxious know alls,their parents think the sun shines out of their rear ends but unfortuneatly no one else especially their poor teachers agree.They take over every conversation bragging about their speech and drama exams etc,etc and they whine non stop.I really want to tell them to get lost but I know their parents would think i was disrespecting them.

that is more on the parents rather than atheism.........

people spring this argument(not you) that because hitler and stalin were atheists, they did what they did. Not true. Hitler was narcissist in approach (NPD). Stalin was paranoid PD. it was psychology the reason for their decisions not lack of religion

Turtwig

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Given what the majoritarian gombeens have said in this thread, I'd say it's more like "GET TO THE BACK OF THE BUS, HEATHEN!"

Mod: Ack! That's a lot of posters you're insulting there. Please retract that statement.

amkin25

Most of the people posting atheist stuff here are teenagers just winding people up imo,i aint religious myself but the militant atheist stuff on boards is crazy its not at all reflective of reality of people in this country,the ops story is silly too,his daughter couldn't colour in a picture of Jesus because she doesn't believe in God,totally made up story i guarantee it.

Turtwig

amkin25 wrote: »

Most of the people posting atheist stuff here are teenagers just winding people up imo,i aint religious myself but the militant atheist stuff on boards is crazy its not at all reflective of reality of people in this country,the ops story is silly too,his daughter couldn't colour in a picture of Jesus because she doesn't believe in God,totally made up story i guarantee it.

Just to be clear: are you being sarcastic?

eviltwin

amkin25 wrote: »

Most of the people posting atheist stuff here are teenagers just winding people up imo,i aint religious myself but the militant atheist stuff on boards is crazy its not at all reflective of reality of people in this country,the ops story is silly too,his daughter couldn't colour in a picture of Jesus because she doesn't believe in God,totally made up story i guarantee it.

What kind of people would you expect to find on the Atheist/Agnostic forum?

GreeBo

Pwindedd wrote: »

Well that would depend on the situation, to answer your question I would say both
In this particular instance the situation arose in class and instead of accepting all views on belief, the teacher mistakenly and effectively endorsed the bullying, from other class members, by their response to the child's statement. You are dead right, 7 year olds are impressionable, and it's the job of teachers (and parents alike) to guide them in acceptance and tolerance. A very bad example was set in this case. But that's just my opinion.

Agreed it's a Catholic school, and Catholicism was indeed being taught at the time, unfortunately tolerance and grace...mmmn not so much.

The parent should have let the school know that the child themselves would be deciding on their religion, and that they didnt want the to be taught Catholicism if the child decided they didnt believe in God.
In that case the teacher would have been aware that this might come up.
For any other child that has been brought to the school as a Catholic, the teacher is right to tell them that they have to believe in God, as thats the parents wish.

Deranged96

She was only told keep her opinion to herself, not that she had to believe in God.
And you did send her into a catholic school, so......

You should indeed talk to the principal and opt her out of religious time, but really you should hsve had to foresight to bring this up when you enrolled her- you obviously have strong views and knew the ethos of the school

What are you going to do at communion and confirmation time?

Also I didn't read the 51 odd pages, so I apologise if I'm out of the loop badly enough to render my 2c void.

GreeBo

Gerry T wrote: »

If over 90% of schools are catholic church run, and by church accounts only 30% of Irish are practising Catholics that's the problem. What you say doe have merit though. But to get it to work the church would have to hand back say 60% of the schools so people would have a choice of church run with catholic RE lessons or state run with either no RE or a general RE lesson.

My percentages may be off but the principal would be needed

Its the reality, it doesnt suddenly make the school non Catholic though.
It means we need more/some non denominational schools, but we dont have them now. Thats not the schools fault.

amkin25

Turtwig wrote: »

Just to be clear: are you being sarcastic?

Am not really being sarcastic i'm just pointing out this story is not true,as i said i am not religious myself but i am not as militant as most people here,if he sent her to Catholic school anyway what does he expect to get.

vibe666

amkin25 wrote: »

Most of the people posting atheist stuff here are teenagers just winding people up imo,i aint religious myself but the militant atheist stuff on boards is crazy its not at all reflective of reality of people in this country,the ops story is silly too,his daughter couldn't colour in a picture of Jesus because she doesn't believe in God,totally made up story i guarantee it.

I'll bet you €10,000 right now that you are wrong.

PopePalpatine

Mod Edit: Attack the posts; not the poster. Or in this case posters. You can't call anyone a gombeen, simples.

Take it to PM if you disagree.

Turtwig

GreeBo wrote: »

The parent should have let the school know that the child themselves would be deciding on their religion, and that they didnt want the to be taught Catholicism if the child decided they didnt believe in God.
In that case the teacher would have been aware that this might come up.
For any other child that has been brought to the school as a Catholic, the teacher is right to tell them that they have to believe in God, as thats the parents wish.

At the time the parent was happy for the child to be taught religion and the parent was under the impression his daughter believed in God. She turned heel all by herself, it seems.

amkin25

vibe666 wrote: »

I'll bet you €10,000 right now that you are wrong.

I do know i am right so i'll take that bet where do you want to meet,can the Mods arrange these bets?

Turtwig

Just er send me on the cash and your bank details. I'll pass along the winnings to the winner of the bet!

I swearz!

GreeBo

Turtwig wrote: »

At the time the parent was happy for the child to be taught religion and the parent was under the impression his daughter believed in God. She turned heel all by herself, it seems.

My reading of it is that the parent all along was happy for the child to decide for herself.
Unfortunately no one told the school this rather important fact.

Pherekydes

I was under the impression that there were almost NO teenagers amongst the A&A regulars.

bajer101

GreeBo wrote: »

We are not debating what actually happened, we are debating what the teacher should have done.
You are missing the delicate fact that we are no longer discussing what happened, instead we are discussing what SHOULD have happened, so you can cut and paste your misplaced condescension wherever you want, thanks.

The option proposed above was that the teacher should have decided to start a class level discussion on whether or not God exists. Im merely pointing out that that would be exactly the scenario you have an issue, albeit from the other side.

Yes we are debating what actually happened, because you stated that my daughter tried to tell the other kids that God didn't exist, and that is not what happened. She stated that she did not believe in god and it was the teacher and other kids who insisted that God does exist that caused the problem. And just to recap - she was then told that if she voiced that opinion again, she would be sent back to her old school.

I really shouldn't have to keep repeating myself about the facts of what happened, but when people insist on ignoring what I have previously said and post statements that imply that either I or my daughter or lying, I have no option but to defend both of us.

Pwindedd

GreeBo wrote: »

The parent should have let the school know that the child themselves would be deciding on their religion, and that they didnt want the to be taught Catholicism if the child decided they didnt believe in God.
In that case the teacher would have been aware that this might come up.
For any other child that has been brought to the school as a Catholic, the teacher is right to tell them that they have to believe in God, as thats the parents wish.

Have we not, several times, established that until this time the OP was not aware of his daughters opinion. It could have been handled much better by the teacher. Something along the lines of "really child, well thats a surprise, lots of us in this class believe in him but it's ok if you don't want to" followed by a quick word with the parent "OP your daughter announced in class today that she does not believe in God, which surprised us a little, what are your feelings on the matter, do you want us to continue to instruct your child in Catholicism - by all means discuss this together and let us know how you feel"

Hindsight is a wonderful thing though, everyone knows what to do after the fact.

shruikan2553

Pherekydes wrote: »

I was under the impression that there were almost NO teenagers amongst the A&A regulars.

We're all actually just a bunch of teenagers in our parents basements going through a rebellious phase supposedly.

Gerry T

Pwindedd wrote: »

Hindsight is a wonderful thing though, everyone knows what to do after the fact.

I have an idea, lets send teachers to a place where they can learn how to teach, lets call it teacher training school, where they can learn the nitty gritty stuff, like don't threaten 7 yr olds

vibe666

GreeBo wrote: »

The option proposed above was that the teacher should have decided to start a class level discussion on whether or not God exists. Im merely pointing out that that would be exactly the scenario you have an issue, albeit from the other side.

No, it was suggested that it should have opened a discussion with the class that not everyone believes in god and that under the Irish constitution, everyone is just as entitled to hold those beliefs and have them be respected as everyone else is to theirs.

That would have been a very good lesson for everyone to learn.

GreeBo wrote: »

Sure they will hear about it, but not in the environment that they were specifically sent to to be taught things.

You have totally missed the point, its the religious belief of all the other kids.

Actually Im not religious at all, so your point scoring is totally wasted on me.

I meant "your" in the 3rd person, you have already mentioned you aren't religious. I should probably have said "their" to be totally clear.

in this particular case, the teacher has demonstrated very little to the children other than that the way to deal with a small child who has suddenly decided she doesn't believe in god is to bully them into submission and threaten them with expulsion.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but have you responded at all regarding the constitutionally protected Irish and EU rights of the child to her (non)beliefs and that your suggestions violate those rights?

Do you believe that your opinion holds more weight than the Irish constitution and EU human rights legislation out are you just ignoring an inconvenient truth?

vibe666

Deranged96 wrote: »

Also I didn't read the 51 odd pages, so I apologise if I'm out of the loop badly enough to render my 2c void.

Would you be at all surprised if I told you that that every single thing you've said except the bit I've quoted is either incorrect or void?

Cabaal

Pherekydes wrote: »

I was under the impression that there were almost NO teenagers amongst the A&A regulars.

Gota say with the exception of one or two threads stated as coming from teenagers it's evident from most posts on this forum that there's a very big range of posters here.... And they seem to come mainly from people aged 25/30 upwards, some posts suggest 50 year old and older.

GreeBo

bajer101 wrote: »

Yes we are debating what actually happened, because you stated that my daughter tried to tell the other kids that God didn't exist, and that is not what happened. She stated that she did not believe in god and it was the teacher and other kids who insisted that God does exist that caused the problem. And just to recap - she was then told that if she voiced that opinion again, she would be sent back to her old school.

I really shouldn't have to keep repeating myself about the facts of what happened, but when people insist on ignoring what I have previously said and post statements that imply that either I or my daughter or lying, I have no option but to defend both of us.

What you should do is go re-read my post.
"They dont want their child being forced to hear that God doesnt exist any more than you would want your child to be taught creationism."

I didnt state any such thing, I said that the other parents might not way to have their kids forced to hear that God doesnt exist.
Nowhere did I say that your child was telling other kids anything.
I specifically said that parents wouldnt want their impressionable kids being exposed to a class discussion on God existing or not.
Where was the lying implied, by anyone?

Pwindedd wrote: »

Have we not, several times, established that until this time the OP was not aware of his daughters opinion. It could have been handled much better by the teacher. Something along the lines of "really child, well thats a surprise, lots of us in this class believe in him but it's ok if you don't want to" followed by a quick word with the parent "OP your daughter announced in class today that she does not believe in God, which surprised us a little, what are your feelings on the matter, do you want us to continue to instruct your child in Catholicism - by all means discuss this together and let us know how you feel"

Hindsight is a wonderful thing though, everyone knows what to do after the fact.

Yes we did establish that, however we also established that the OP, all along, was happy for his child to decide their own religious faith. What we also established is that the parent furnished said childs baptismal certificate when the school asked, and that said parent kept schtum on the facts regarding their childs religious beliefs, being that they were free to make their own choices.

Hindsight is indeed wonderful, but I still maintain that arming the school with all the info available can only help to avoid these situations.
The teacher, naturally, assumed that the OP wanted their child to be taught as a Catholic child.
A Catholic child isnt encouraged by their acting parents to deny the existence of thrir cosen deity.

GreeBo

vibe666 wrote: »

No, it was suggested that it should have opened a discussion with the class that not everyone believes in god and that under the Irish constitution, everyone is just as entitled to hold those beliefs and have them be respected as everyone else is to theirs.

That would have been a very good lesson for everyone to learn.

That would have been an excellent approach in a non denominational or multi faith school, not in a catholic school with a child that has been delivered to the school as a catholic.

I'm not going to entertain your constitutional "point", its irrelevant to this discussion.
In school the teacher is legally acting as the chlids parent, the child has been delivered to the school as a catholic, ergo they are treated as a catholic.
I fully respect the parents right to deliver the child as any religion or none to the school.