Daughter forced to believe in God

Mary63

Its where she said it,she should have been warned she was moving to a catholic school and to keep her thoughts to herself,she is only seven anyway,catholic parents would have been accused of brainwashing their seven year old by teaching her to pray,is it not equally brainwashing to talk to a seven year old about whether God exists or not.If you want religion kept out of school that means you want athiests non beliefs kept private too.
It would be like me enrolling my seven year old in a rugby club and then him announcing to the coach that rugby is a stupid waste of time.he would be correct but so would the coach telling him to go join the local GAA club.

lukesmom

PopePalpatine wrote: »

That's the EXACT situation OP's in!

I live in Trim in Co. Meath. It's in Dublin's commuter belt, and yet, the nearest ET school is 15km away. It's not some backwater in a Gaeltacht.

Naaaavan I presume? There is a new multi denominational school in Navan called Ard Ri Community school.

bajer101

Mary63 wrote: »

What has this thought the child,that speaking out inappropriately gets you into trouble.There is a time and a place for everything and enrolling in a catholic schools means you respect what others believe.What about the other children in the class,maybe they were upset at being told there was no such thing as god.

Alright, the dinner is on and I have a bit of time, so I have to call you on this. This has taught my daughter when I told her that she could make her own mind up about Religion, I meant it. And it has taught her that I will support her. She didn't tell the other kids that there was no god - she said that she didn't believe in God. It was the other kids and the teacher who upset her by telling her that there was a God and who tried to force their belief on her.

Where did i say parents dont care about the upbringing of their children,why do you assume that parents who choose a catholic school for convenience dont care about their children,some of the parents in fact probably quite a lot could be devout catholics,dont forget most have been educated through this ethos,have turned out fine so will choose the same for their children.

I was beat with a leather strap by Christian Brothers, and I seem to have turned out fine - but it wasn't because I was subjected to corporal punishment. I certainly wouldn't choose corporal punishment for my kids. If something is wrong, it needs to be changed.

The vast majority of parents are happy with the status quo,also at least half of the children in ET schools will make their holy communion and confirmation outside school.Maybe places should be reserved for Athiest children,those parents who take up places in educate together but still go along with catholism for the sake of social conformity should have the school place withdrawn.

Maybe Religion should just be removed from schools and left at home where it belongs. My story is just one small story that happen everyday, but lots of these small stories cause real change. There will be a point in time in the future when Religion is removed from schools in Ireland - it's just a question of when exactly that will happen. The more people who "suck it up" as you advocated will delay that date. The more people who strike a tiny blow will bring it forward.

RustyNut

Mary63 wrote: »

What has this thought the child

That if she feels that she is being treated unfairly she can talk to her dad about it and he will support her to find a reasonable solution to the problem with the minimum of fuss.

RainyDay

eviltwin wrote: »

I can remember a time special needs kids were told to go to special schools because integration with other children was too much trouble for the schools. Thankfully we've changed and schools are all the better for it.

Unfortunately, many schools will still 'recommend' that students with disabilities go to the 'other school down the road' because that school is so much better able to accommodate them.

BTW, they're not 'special needs kids'. Their disability does not define them.

brianon

Mary63 wrote: »

It would be like me enrolling my seven year old in a rugby club and then him announcing to the coach that rugby is a stupid waste of time.he would be correct but so would the coach telling him to go join the local GAA club.

Seriously now. Are you just trolling ? That is just nonsense.

It is a catholic school yes. But it's not their way or the highway. Kids of parents who don't want there kids to participate in RE are perfectly within their rights. And as best as I can see (going on my own experience with my daughter as well as others), it does seem to be the case that these kids are treated fairly and do not have religion forced on their kids.

vibe666

Mary63 wrote: »

Its where she said it,she should have been warned she was moving to a catholic school and to keep her thoughts to herself,she is only seven

Perhaps she should have been warned what Catholics can be like, but she has certainly learned a lot over the last few days.

It's exactly like the second episode of the walking dead where they learn that by smearing guts all over themselves and shuffling along pretending to be brain dead zombies they can make their way through the mindless herd without being harmed as long as they keep quiet and don't look out of place.

GreeBo

RainyDay wrote: »

BTW, they're not 'special needs kids'. Their disability does not define them.

Ehh what?
Kids with special needs ARE special needs kids.
thats by no means all they are but the say that they are not "special needs kids" is just PC gone crazy.

Are tall kids really just "kids with tallness"?

Mary63

Bajer,you are missing the point entirely,there is no huge demand for religion to be removed from school in ireland,there really isnt.The demands are for smaller classes,SNA teachers for children who need them,more technology resources,more PE classes,redevelopment of school buildings etc.
Parents cant even be persuaded to join the PTA,they dont turn up in any great numbers at the AGMs,they arent interested in greater involvement in school so the ET model which encourages parental involvement wont appeal to them.What concerns them is that their child is happy in school and is learning,after that they simply dont care so unless change in imposed without going through a consensus agreement we will still be talking about this in twenty years.

ardle1

vibe666 wrote: »

strange that you say this, yet the more people understand about the universe, the less likely they are to believe in god(s) of any kind, to the point where only a tiny percentage of the most intelligent scientific minds in the world believe in god(s) of any kind.

also, the bible (Genesis 2:7) says that man was created from dust, so I'm not sure who you're laughing at, unless it's yourself?

Stop telling that dust story,every time I laugh my head hurts...... Unless God created us from dust?! Ahhhhh now that would make sense..... Sorry for laughing I never really thought about it much before now;)

GreeBo

brianon wrote: »

Seriously now. Are you just trolling ? That is just nonsense.

It is a catholic school yes. But it's not their way or the highway. Kids of parents who don't want there kids to participate in RE are perfectly within their rights. And as best as I can see (going on my own experience with my daughter as well as others), it does seem to be the case that these kids are treated fairly and do not have religion forced on their kids.

sure they are within their rights, but shouldnt they tell the teacher/school this?

The issue arose here because out of nowhere a child that had been baptised (and the school specifically asked about this) who was therefore deemed to be a christian came out with "I dont believe in God" in the middle of a lesson.

Understandably the teacher may have panicked somewhat (they were hardly supposed to hold a lesson on Does God Exist) and also the child may have misinterpreted what exactly the teacher/principal said.
To me the latter part seems very likely, given the subsequent attitude/response of the school

Turtwig

brianon wrote: »

Seriously now. Are you just trolling ? That is just nonsense.

Mod: If you believe someone to be trolling please keep the accusation or pondering out of the thread and take it to PM or report the posts.

Thanks,

Turtwig

Mod: I'm also going to add a second warning. If you believe the poster hasn't read or comprehended the thread - people do miss stuff- please don't post telling them to read the thread. There's almost 500 posts! Quote the relevant piece of material that they've clearly missed/understood and explain to to them why they're wrong.

Top of the pyramid folks, stay above contradictions if possible.



Ta!

Orion

Mary63 wrote: »

Its where she said it,she should have been warned she was moving to a catholic school and to keep her thoughts to herself

I was actually going to ignore your posts because I'd rather think you were a troll undeserving of a response than that you actually believe what you're saying.

But this I can't let go. Children shoudl never be told to keep their thoughts to themselves. Ever. They should be encouraged to express their feelings and thoughts on anything that interests or concerns them. It's attitudes like this one that are a contributing factor to the worryingly high levels of mental health issues in teenagers today.

Orion

Turtwig wrote: »

Mod: If you believe someone to be trolling please keep the accusation or pondering out of the thread and take it to PM or report the posts.

Thanks,

Apologies - I posted my comment before seeing this. The rest of my post is ok though.

Pwindedd

Orion wrote: »

I was actually going to ignore your posts because I'd rather think you were a troll undeserving of a response than that you actually believe what you're saying.

But this I can't let go. Children shoudl never be told to keep their thoughts to themselves. Ever. They should be encouraged to express their feelings and thoughts on anything that interests or concerns them. It's attitudes like this one that are a contributing factor to the worryingly high levels of mental health issues in teenagers today.

I would add it would have been the perfect opportunity for the teacher to address the very realistic situation that not everyone believes in a god. To open up dialogue in the class on the subject. Some of the best lessons can evolve from frank and open discussion- you don't always have to adhere religiously to the lesson plan - Pun fully intended.

Chimichangas

bajer101 wrote: »

Alright, the dinner is on and I have a bit of time, so I have to call you on this. This has taught my daughter when I told her that she could make her own mind up about Religion, I meant it. And it has taught her that I will support her. She didn't tell the other kids that there was no god - she said that she didn't believe in God. It was the other kids and the teacher who upset her by telling her that there was a God and who tried to force their belief on her.

Maybe Religion should just be removed from schools and left at home where it belongs. My story is just one small story that happen everyday, but lots of these small stories cause real change. There will be a point in time in the future when Religion is removed from schools in Ireland - it's just a question of when exactly that will happen. The more people who "suck it up" as you advocated will delay that date. The more people who strike a tiny blow will bring it forward.

Its starting to sound like you are driving your own agenda now... though hardly can be blamed with the amount of anti religion posts here.
The fervour and conviction of some of those posters reminds me of bible bashers, but coming from the opposite direction.
(Cue probable chorus of denial )

And I dont agree that religion is something that can be, or should be left at home, if one has a bellief in their religion, they try and live it I think. But thats just me. You and others are entitled to their own opinion.

I hope your daughter is alright now, I cant wade through the 30+ pages i missed to see what happened, or if anything has happened yet.
Hopefully this regretful episode wont have any lasting negative effect on her or others.

bajer101

Chimichangas wrote: »

Its starting to sound like you are driving your own agenda now... though hardly can be blamed with the amount of anti religion posts here.
The fervour and conviction of some of those posters reminds me of bible bashers, but coming from the opposite direction.
(Cue probable chorus of denial )

And I dont agree that religion is something that can be, or should be left at home, if one has a bellief in their religion, they try and live it I think. But thats just me. You and others are entitled to their own opinion.

I hope your daughter is alright now, I cant wade through the 30+ pages i missed to see what happened, or if anything has happened yet.
Hopefully this regretful episode wont have any lasting negative effect on her or others.

I'm just voicing my opinion and am no more pushing an agenda than you are with your opinion.

My daughter is fine since this has been resolved (by the school agreeing that she doesn't have to be taught religion). I can't see how this event will have any negative effect on any of the parties involved. If I stood back and looked at the situation from a completely neutral standpoint, I'd say that it has been positive for everyone.

RainyDay

GreeBo wrote: »

Ehh what?
Kids with special needs ARE special needs kids.
thats by no means all they are but the say that they are not "special needs kids" is just PC gone crazy.

Are tall kids really just "kids with tallness"?

Do tall children often get told that they would be better off in another school? Or that they can/should skip PE because they wouldn't be up to it? Do tall kids find themselves isolated from their peers because they've had an SNA hovering over them for their entire time in school?
http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/yourview/disabled-teens-nervous-about-the-real-world-285592.html

The comparison doesn't really hold water. Go talk to some students with disabilities and their families. Most will tell you how they hate the whole 'special' terminology in the first place, and how that terminology and the attitude behind it isolates the students and segregates them from others. Go talk to anyone who has worked in the disability sector about 'people first' language, and how getting away from labelling people contributes to equality for people with disabilities.

It's not really hard to understand. It's also not really hard to do.

If you want to dig your heels in and be part of the problem, that is your choice. You might think differently when you find yourself dealing with disability within your own family.

Chimichangas

bajer101 wrote: »

I'm just voicing my opinion and am no more pushing an agenda than you are with your opinion.

**Here is you pushing an agenda:

[/QUOTE]Maybe Religion should just be removed from schools and left at home where it belongs. My story is just one small story that happen everyday, but lots of these small stories cause real change. There will be a point in time in the future when Religion is removed from schools in Ireland - it's just a question of when exactly that will happen. The more people who "suck it up" as you advocated will delay that date. The more people who strike a tiny blow will bring it forward.[/QUOTE]
I didnt think I had an agenda, just an opinion.

[/QUOTE] If I stood back and looked at the situation from a completely neutral standpoint, I'd say that it has been positive for everyone.[/QUOTE]

You're hardly neutral are you?

Gumbi

Chimichangas wrote: »

**Here is you pushing an agenda:

Maybe Religion should just be removed from schools and left at home where it belongs. My story is just one small story that happen everyday, but lots of these small stories cause real change. There will be a point in time in the future when Religion is removed from schools in Ireland - it's just a question of when exactly that will happen. The more people who "suck it up" as you advocated will delay that date. The more people who strike a tiny blow will bring it forward.[/QUOTE]
I didnt think I had an agenda, just an opinion.

[/QUOTE] If I stood back and looked at the situation from a completely neutral standpoint, I'd say that it has been positive for everyone.[/QUOTE]

You're hardly neutral are you?[/QUOTE]
Keeping religion out of school (or after school) is the fairest solution because it caters *to everyone*.

Pwindedd

Chimichangas wrote: »

Its starting to sound like you are driving your own agenda now... though hardly can be blamed with the amount of anti religion posts here.
The fervour and conviction of some of those posters reminds me of bible bashers, but coming from the opposite direction.
(Cue probable chorus of denial )

Ok I'll bite - isn't that the crux of the issue, we are coming this from the standpoint of our convictions. Some people are religious and enjoy religion and it's benefits. Pro-religion. Others are not religious and don't enjoy religion and feel it doesn't benefit them. Anti-religion. (I could take umbrage to use of the word anti, but as this isn't the thread for it I'll roll with it...Alti-religion anyone?)

In the A&A forum though this is probably to be expected. Whilst all are welcome the majority of posters might tend to lean towards the non-believing persuasion and come here to discuss topics with like minded individuals.

Why do you feel Anti religion is more of an agenda in this particular discussion than the Catholic position of majority rules, please don't rock the boat? Surely both sides of this have equal cause for discourse. No-one is suggesting we ban religion, removing religious "instruction" from the education system is not banning it. We're merely suggesting it be removed to a more suitable arena.

The only counter arguments to this suggestion seem to be that - no-one wants this and sure it's the way we've always done things. We're only talking about alternatives and our experiences in this area. 2.5 hours a week on a foreign language and your child could be fluent by the time they attend secondary education. They offered French classes as an extra curricular class at my daughters primary school. after school lessons for the princely sum of €150 - and the poor wee thing with not even communion money to buy them.

GreeBo

Pwindedd wrote: »

I would add it would have been the perfect opportunity for the teacher to address the very realistic situation that not everyone believes in a god. To open up dialogue in the class on the subject. Some of the best lessons can evolve from frank and open discussion- you don't always have to adhere religiously to the lesson plan - Pun fully intended.

What about the Catholic parents who have specifically chosen to send their children to a Catholic school to learn about Catholicism?
They dont want their child being forced to hear that God doesnt exist any more than you would want your child to be taught creationism.

Also, bear in mind that these are highly impressionable 7 year olds, if it was a class of 16 year olds a frank, open discussion would be more appropriate.

vibe666

Mary63 wrote: »

Bajer,you are missing the point entirely,there is no huge demand for religion to be removed from school in ireland,there really isnt.The demands are for smaller classes,SNA teachers for children who need them,more technology resources,more PE classes,redevelopment of school buildings etc.
Parents cant even be persuaded to join the PTA,they dont turn up in any great numbers at the AGMs,they arent interested in greater involvement in school so the ET model which encourages parental involvement wont appeal to them.What concerns them is that their child is happy in school and is learning,after that they simply dont care so unless change in imposed without going through a consensus agreement we will still be talking about this in twenty years.

would you care to back that up with any evidence at all?

because the reality of it is very different to how you imagine it is.

There was an article in the irish times last year about the experiences of a single mother with an unbaptised child in Dublin.

The original article has been archived now, but it is re-posted here: http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/en/news/media/for-children-with-no-baptismal-certificate-the-school-gates-seem-to-be-closed/

There most certainly is a demand and things are in the process of changing and pretty soon there will be no choice but to remove the religious ethos from state sponsored schools and the playing field will be level for all children in the state to be treated equally.

if people still feel strongly about religious indoctrination then there are several thousand buildings with big pointy roofs specifically designed for that purpose in every parish in the country that they can take their children to, but a school is for education, not indoctrination.

unfortunately, the church is all to aware that once the inevitable happens and they lose access to indoctrinate the majority of the population from a young age, that it will be the beginning of the end of them, since as you've already said, when it comes down to it, most people really can't be bothered.

church pews all over the country have less and less arses on them every year and the church itself is in crisis mode as the existing clergy are dying faster than they can manage to spit out new priests, since even mostly empty churches still need someone to stand in the pulpit.

yet, in 2014 where religious belief in ireland is falling faster than almost anywhere else in the world, non-religious people all over the country are STILL being forced into a situation where they are baptising their kids specifically so that they don't have to worry about where they are going to send them to school, as statistically speaking, due to the current situation with 96% of state funded schools having a catholic "ethos" and as a consequence of that, a baptismal cert getting you preferential treatment, they will have a much greater chance of getting their kids into the local school they want if the child is baptised than if they are not.

Hopefully, with exception 37 being removed and thanks in a large part to the Louise O'Keefe case as a side effect of the landmark decision there giving the state specific responsibilities over the health and wellbeing of every child in every state sponsored school in the country, things *should* be changing soon in Ireland (although not quick enough) as the EU has already made repeated requests to the Irish government to provide many more non-denominational schools for the rapidly growing people who would like their children to have the option of a secular education.

I am sure that this isn't *always* the case and non-religious (or of a different denomination) children are still admitted to religious ethos schools in limited numbers, but when parents all over ireland are sitting down and talking about ensuring the best chance for a place where they can get a decent education for their children, a lot of people don't want to take the chance and will still choose the easier option rather than rock the boat and risk having their child lose out.

And that IS the reality of it for non-religious parents and children all over the country. either toe the line and fake your way in the door or risk getting left out and potentially pay the price with your child's education.

so what's best for your child's future? do you stand by your principles and potentially (in some cases drastically) reduce the chances of your child getting into 96% of the available schools in the country by staying honest, or follow the herd and get them baptised to open all the right doors for educational options?

Mark Tapley

Chimichangas wrote: »

Its starting to sound like you are driving your own agenda now... though hardly can be blamed with the amount of anti religion posts here.
The fervour and conviction of some of those posters reminds me of bible bashers, but coming from the opposite direction.
(Cue probable chorus of denial )

And I dont agree that religion is something that can be, or should be left at home, if one has a bellief in their religion, they try and live it I think. But thats just me. You and others are entitled to their own opinion.

I hope your daughter is alright now, I cant wade through the 30+ pages i missed to see what happened, or if anything has happened yet.
Hopefully this regretful episode wont have any lasting negative effect on her or others.

I don't see this as a " regretful episode ". The child made her feelings known and an amicable solution was found. I think independent thinking should be encouraged. The teacher obviously should have handled it better.

vibe666

GreeBo wrote: »

What about the Catholic parents who have specifically chosen to send their children to a Catholic school to learn about Catholicism?

unless they are going to put them into a soundproof bubble and roll them around everywhere completely isolated from the rest of the world, not allow them to read any non-catholic books, ban them from watching tv or playing video games, or from socalising with anyone outside of their own classroom they ARE going to hear about people who don't believe in god pretty much anywhere they go. if their religious instruction isn't able to handle any scrutiny at all, it isn't setting a very good example for them at all and the time would be much better spent teaching them something useful.

is your religious belief so delicate and fragile that it can't stand up to the scrutiny of a curious 7 year old girl?

Pwindedd

GreeBo wrote: »

What about the Catholic parents who have specifically chosen to send their children to a Catholic school to learn about Catholicism?
They dont want their child being forced to hear that God doesnt exist any more than you would want your child to be taught creationism.

Also, bear in mind that these are highly impressionable 7 year olds, if it was a class of 16 year olds a frank, open discussion would be more appropriate.

I'm in no way saying that we should tell the children of Catholic parents that God does not exist. I'm saying we should prepare them for the fact that not everyone believes in a God. And many others believe in different or many Gods. I would also be very happy for my child to be taught that some people believe in creationism but others don't.

I also think that the amount of people who have chosen the school specifically for it's Catholic teachings, are also in a relative minority.

bajer101

GreeBo wrote: »

What about the Catholic parents who have specifically chosen to send their children to a Catholic school to learn about Catholicism?
They dont want their child being forced to hear that God doesnt exist any more than you would want your child to be taught creationism.

Also, bear in mind that these are highly impressionable 7 year olds, if it was a class of 16 year olds a frank, open discussion would be more appropriate.

And again I will repeat what actually happened. My daughter simply stated that she did not believe in God. The other kids were not forced to hear that God doesn't exist. They simply heard a child voice a dissenting opinion. The only person who was coerced was my daughter who was told by the teacher and then the other children that there is a God. You seem to need to have facts explained to you several times before you accept them, so I'll just copy what I have just typed so that I can paste it to your next few replies.

GreeBo

vibe666 wrote: »

unless they are going to put them into a soundproof bubble and roll them around everywhere completely isolated from the rest of the world, not allow them to read any non-catholic books, ban them from watching tv or playing video games, or from socalising with anyone outside of their own classroom they ARE going to hear about people who don't believe in god pretty much anywhere they go. if their religious instruction isn't able to handle any scrutiny at all, it isn't setting a very good example for them at all and the time would be much better spent teaching them something useful.

is your religious belief so delicate and fragile that it can't stand up to the scrutiny of a curious 7 year old girl?

Sure they will hear about it, but not in the environment that they were specifically sent to to be taught things.

You have totally missed the point, its the religious belief of all the other kids.

Actually Im not religious at all, so your point scoring is totally wasted on me.

GreeBo

Pwindedd wrote: »

I'm in no way saying that we should tell the children of Catholic parents that God does not exist. I'm saying we should prepare them for the fact that not everyone believes in a God. And many others believe in different or many Gods. I would also be very happy for my child to be taught that some people believe in creationism but others don't.

I also think that the amount of people who have chosen the school specifically for it's Catholic teachings, are also in a relative minority.

You as a parent of the child should, or the teacher should prepare them?

The numbers are irrelevant, its a Catholic school with a cross on the wall, until thats removed the default will be to teach Catholocism.