Anyone following the Ashya King story - link to his brothers latest youtube post

Gongoozler

bubblypop wrote: »

Well that's not entirely true, you can be sure if it happened here that the HSE would have to go to the courts first.
I think something like this has happened here before.
I'm all for the welfare of children, I just think this was done amazingly quickly.

You're saying it's not true but following it with something that doesn't have any bearing on whether it is true or not. And, not that we're talking about the same legal system, but yeah I'm pretty sure that I've seen very fast moving court cases come up on behalf of the HSE. Will Google tomorrow

Gongoozler

Gongoozler wrote: »

You're saying it's not true but following it with something that doesn't have any bearing on whether it is true or not. And, not that we're talking about the same legal system, but yeah I'm pretty sure that I've seen very fast moving court cases come up on behalf of the HSE. Will Google tomorrow

Yes, the court cases are fast, but I've never heard of a European arrest warrant being issued so quick, and I haven't heard of any court cases in England regarding this case.

Yes its different legal systems but we are all bound to the same European system, are we not?
Could England issue a European arrest warrant for someone in this country? If so why didn't they do it for the many suspects of terrorist activity in England living here?
Could we issue one as quick for someone in England? I don't think so.

Yes, a European alert maybe, on the grounds of child welfare, but I think its a stretch too far to issue an arrest warrant.
Just seems to make a very hard and upsetting situation worse for the family.
How does arresting the parents sort anything out? The child is now in hospital in Spain. What will they do now? Demand he be returned to England?

Karl Stein

EuskalHerria wrote: »

Can it not be assumed the father is naturally emotional and possibly distressed?

That would be an assumption. Nothing more. His Wife and Son were also with him - are they too distressed and emotional?

In the video the father mentioned 'searching the internet' and 'looking at discussion forums'.

Again we have no real idea of what level of knowledge the Father had developed on the issue or that he might have been consulting with other experts.

In this case, I imagine, had the child not been presented to the hospital there would have been limited actions available to the authorities. Due to the fact the child was removed from the hospital, the hospital has a duty if care to the child.

At present it appears the authorities over-reacted.

If he went to a foreign country where it was advised he should have the treatment he sought do you think he should be prevented from going there with his son?

iguana

My name is URL wrote: »

It's a pity the authorities and media didn't take a 'calm' approach, instead of instantly deeming him to be a scumbag kidnapper intent on ending the life of his kid.

What really struck me about a lot of the reports I read yesterday is the amount of time it was mentioned that the family were Jehovah's Witnesses. So many reports went something like, 'It's not believed that the King's have taken their son from the hospital because they are JW. Members of the religious movement of JW object to blood transfusions. But that's probably not the issue here. Though they are JW. We know they are JW because the brother is on a JW forum on the internet and the family attend JW meetings. Did we mention that they are JW? It's probably not importnat but we've only mentioned it 8 times so far so should really go for an even 10. JW, JW.'

I really felt there was an attempt to paint the family as religious fundamentalists who would rather their child die than avail of medical treatment, without actually saying that. If the public were worried about that, it would definitely make people more likely to give information to the police. Ironic as it turns out that rather than crazy luddites, the Kings wanted to change their son's medical care team in order to avail of scientific advancements not yet available in the UK.

My name is URL

iguana wrote: »

What really struck me about a lot of the reports I read yesterday is the amount of time it was mentioned that the family were Jehovah's Witnesses. So many reports went something like, 'It's not believed that the King's have taken their son from the hospital because they are JW. Members of the religious movement of JW object to blood transfusions. But that's probably not the issue here. Though they are JW. We know they are JW because the brother is on a JW forum on the internet and the family attend JW meetings. Did we mention that they are JW? It's probably not importnat but we've only mentioned it 8 times so far so should really go for an even 10. JW, JW.'

I really felt there was an attempt to paint the family as religious fundamentalists who would rather their child die than avail of medical treatment, without actually saying that. If the public were worried about that, it would definitely make people more likely to give information to the police. Ironic as it turns out that rather than crazy luddites, the Kings wanted to change their son's medical care team in order to avail of scientific advancements not yet available in the UK.

It's ****ed up whichever way you look at it. Yet another attempt from British authorities to use social concerns as means of overriding personal liberty.

I know I'll be called either a pinko liberal or mental right-winger for that and I don't even care anymore. People argued in favor of UK authorities when they forced a woman to have a c-section and then took her child away, so they'll support them when stuff like this happens too.

EuskalHerria

My name is URL wrote: »

It's a pity the authorities and media didn't take a 'calm' approach, instead of instantly deeming him to be a scumbag kidnapper intent on ending the life of his kid.

I won't be an apologist for the media and I refuse to believe the authorities used those labels.

However the medias labels don't act as justification for removing the child from a hospital and denying him the care he requires.

EuskalHerria

Karl Stein wrote: »

That would be an assumption. Nothing more. His Wife and Son were also with him - are they too distressed and emotional?

Given what is currently going on with their son/sibling's condition and what is happening in the media. That they are not entirely focused and it's safe to assume they are emotional? Not all assumptions are subjective. If they care enough to do something as drastic as this, then surely that care can turn to concern as quickly which would cause emotional issues?

Again we have no real idea of what level of knowledge the Father had developed on the issue or that he might have been consulting with other experts.

Again, had the father any qualifications to justify removing his son from the care of trained and qualified professionals. He would have volunteered this information. Unless he is saving the best til last it clear this man is not qualified to decide what is best for his son.

You see, Parenthood does not magically qualify someone in fields of expertise that are relevant to a certain situation.

At present it appears the authorities over-reacted.

If he went to a foreign country where it was advised he should have the treatment he sought do you think he should be prevented from going there with his son?

No I don't think he should be prevented from going abroad and getting alternative treatment. However I think the correct provisions should be put in place to ensure such a move is done correctly. Clearly removing a child from a medical institution to a house is not ensuring the welfare of the child between treatments.

Neyite

Similar issues with medical experts overriding the wishes of the patient happen here too, and are upheld in court.

Here, a judge reckons that a midwife has the necessary medical knowledge to do whatever they like without consent of the patient.

A lot of the time, these kind of maternity cases are dismissed as some hysterical woman moaning that she didn't get the hippy-dippy birth she wanted. But this ruling may have repercussions to medical care outside of maternity services before long.

Ashya's older brother being interviewed on Ch4 right now. Ashya has had no immediate family around him at all since parents were arrested. Older brother looking after younger siblings and due to media, cannot leave their house. Family and friends bring them groceries.

The parents haven't even been charged with anything. Yet they are not allowed to be with their seriously ill son.

The whole thing has been managed so badly by the authorities. Lets just hope that all this media attention helps in getting Ashya the treatment they were looking for.

My name is URL

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

The parents haven't even been charged with anything. Yet they are not allowed to be with their seriously ill son.

The parents are in jail for at least 3 days because the case was adjourned until then and they were refused bail. The siblings cannot visit the kid because the kid is in hospital under armed guard.

It's an insane situation. British police should be ashamed of themselves for continuing to seek an extradition order. And the NHS for creating a sensationalised shitstorm by claiming that the kid would be dead within 24 hours if it wasn't returned to the hospital.

Fiolina

My name is URL wrote: »

The parents are in jail for at least 3 days because the case was adjourned until then and they were refused bail. The siblings cannot visit the kid because the kid is in hospital under armed guard.

It's an insane situation. British police should be ashamed of themselves for continuing to seek an extradition order. And the NHS for creating a sensationalised shitstorm by claiming that the kid would be dead within 24 hours if it wasn't returned to the hospital.

I haven't read all the posts here but I think it is absolutely heartbreaking that a little five year old boy has been left totally alone. Why the hell can't the brothers or sister visit? I can't even begin to imagine the agony the family are going through. It's inhumane imo

JP Liz V1

Poor little Ashya King, hope he fully recovers it is so sad to think of him all alone in hospital at that age

volchitsa

Another thing that really bothers me with the media coverage is a couple of articles basically mud slinging about the family not being friendly to neighbours and the kids making noise at the swimming pool - I mean WTF???

I think it was the Irish Independent that had those, if it had been in a UK paper I'd have suspected they were flogging the official line, but why an Irish paper? What line are they trying to sell us and why?

Horrible, really horrible. Here's one, but there was another earlier, iirc.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/the-irish-writer-who-lived-next-door-to-the-family-of-ashya-king-30551166.html

The One Doctor

Interesting. I recently read an IT article about this issue that explains the whole problem very well:

Hopes for sick children who go abroad may be ‘unrealistic’

riffmongous

volchitsa wrote: »

Another thing that really bothers me with the media coverage is a couple of articles basically mud slinging about the family not being friendly to neighbours and the kids making noise at the swimming pool - I mean WTF???

I think it was the Irish Independent that had those, if it had been in a UK paper I'd have suspected they were flogging the official line, but why an Irish paper? What line are they trying to sell us and why?

Horrible, really horrible. Here's one, but there was another earlier, iirc.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/the-irish-writer-who-lived-next-door-to-the-family-of-ashya-king-30551166.html

Wow! How does crap like that get published?

So that journalist said they didn't intergrate but were only on passing acquaintance with the neighbours (including her) but she then goes on to say they were in Haiti and the Dominican Republic for a year.

How the fook would she know if they never said more than hello to her???

I get what others mean now, when they talk about crappy journalism skills at the indo.

iguana

The One Doctor wrote: »

Interesting. I recently read an IT article about this issue that explains the whole problem very well:

Hopes for sick children who go abroad may be ‘unrealistic’

Absolutely there is a lot of false hope when it comes to foreign treatments. But it's only natural for the parents of a dying child to clutch at a treatment that gives their child an infinitesimal chance of surviving, because an infinitesimal chance is better than no chance. About a month ago facebook newsfeeds, a huge amount of radio airplay and numerous adshell posters all over the place were all about the My Boy Gavin campaign to help finance American treatment for an Irish boy suffering from what is very likely to be terminal cancer. I don't recall the police being sent after that family.

volchitsa

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I get what others mean now, when they talk about crappy journalism skills at the indo.

That's exactly what I thought too - I'd always tended to think there was maybe a bit of snobbery in that sort of comment (that it really meant sort of "not the Irish Times" or "not a UK newspaper") but the level of "journalism" in that left me gobsmacked. It's not about the vocabulary or grammar, it's that it's a pure gossip sheet.

Back on-topic, I do think there seems to have been a complete breakdown in dialogue with the parents which is hard to explain. The reports when they were looking for him said his feeding
-system batteries were about to run out, but the video the father out up online showed the system plugged into the mains. So the hospital were not being entirely truthful to the public (and presumably the police). What else are they lying about?

laserlad2010

iguana wrote: »

Absolutely there is a lot of false hope when it comes to foreign treatments. But it's only natural for the parents of a dying child to clutch at a treatment that gives their child an infinitesimal chance of surviving, because an infinitesimal chance is better than no chance. About a month ago facebook newsfeeds, a huge amount of radio airplay and numerous adshell posters all over the place were all about the My Boy Gavin campaign to help finance American treatment for an Irish boy suffering from what is very likely to be terminal cancer. I don't recall the police being sent after that family.

Gavin Glynne (?correct spelling) went over there against the wishes of the treating oncologist. That treatment was ABSOLUTELY not proven on a global scale, it was being done by one doctor in one hospital in America.

In contrast, Ireland and the UK are part of a global network of hundreds of top paediatric oncology centres who ALL use the same protocols. The paediatric oncology treatment here is world class. The HSE have never refused funding for a treatment THAT HAS BEEN RECOMMENDED by the treating oncologist. GGs treatment was NOT recommended, therefore the HSE rightly refused to pay for it.

Similarly, in Asha Kings case you need to consider THE FACTS. The official statement from the centre referred to "experience" showing that proton beam therapy "can be effective". No mention of research, peer review, international evidence etc. The NHS would never refuse to pay for a treatment that has been shown to work.

These parents took their sick child who had just had brain surgery out of the hospital to an apartment in Spain. If they had taken him after he had been discharged, fine. Their decision. But to take a child from a hospital bed? No nursing or medical care? Negligent.

Yes these parent have their childrens' best interests at heart, but children die from cancer, not all can be saved, and sometimes the best decision is to allow a child to die with dignity and not full of tubes in a foreign hospital.

Dislike away, its the reality of paediatric oncology.

volchitsa

Yes, I think no-one would deny that the family are quite likely to be fooling themselves that this treatment will save their child, and of course it must be remembered that the hospital can't release medical details which might (possibly) prove their case.

The problem I have though is with how communication between the hospital and the family got to this stage, and with the fact that the international arrest warrant of the parents appears to have been obtained using dubious arguments. At best.
That makes me think the hospital, or someone on the team at least, may not have been as interested in maintaining communication with the family as with proving themselves right.

AudreyHepburn

Disgraceful how these parents are being treated. It's not like they took him out to deny him medical treatment, quite the opposite if I'm taking the story up correctly.

They are not negligent and their religion has nothing to do with it. They are, to my mind, just two loving parents willing to do anything to save their little boy....find me any parent who says they wouldn't do the same and I show you a liar.

iguana

laserlad2010 wrote: »

Gavin Glynne (?correct spelling) went over there against the wishes of the treating oncologist. That treatment was ABSOLUTELY not proven on a global scale, it was being done by one doctor in one hospital in America.

That's exactly my point. The Glynns are doing something very similar as is their prerogative.

These parents took their sick child who had just had brain surgery out of the hospital to an apartment in Spain. If they had taken him after he had been discharged, fine. Their decision.

Actually it was still their decision. A patient is not in the custody of the hospital until the discharge. The right to leave the hospital is still the decision of the patient or the patient's guardian unless there was a court order in place.

Pumpkinseeds

The way the child's family have been treated is disgraceful. All they've done is try to get the best treatment that they believe will help their child. They seemed to have hit an impass with the consultants in the UK, which believe me is very easy to do. They've been treated like criminals and charging them with child neglect is just laughable.

How on earth is jailing the parents, forbidding them from seeing their child and sending the child to a hospital hundreds of miles away, helping anyone at all. It's a mess and it needs sorting out. The family only ever had the best interests of the child at heart and now the legal system has removed a child from his family and cut off access to his parents and siblings.

laserlad2010

iguana wrote: »

That's exactly my point. The Glynns are doing something very similar as is their prerogative.


Actually it was still their decision. A patient is not in the custody of the hospital until the discharge. The right to leave the hospital is still the decision of the patient or the patient's guardian unless there was a court order in place.

Those are two EXTREMELY different situations. GG was not an inpatient recovering from brain surgery. That is the issue here. The issue is not about second opinions or experimental treatments.

I refuse to accept that the full details are out there, and am just drawing from international standard practice in paediatrics. Social media has distorted the general public's understanding of the evidence and success behind the experimental treatments offered to desperate parents. The harsh reality is that these children, in the vast majority of cases, do not get better.

Fiolina

I've just read on the Ashya King FB page that the parents are to be released an appear in court tomorrow re extradition order. can't find any info on it.

ArmaniJeanss

Looks like the UK authorities are going to withdraw the arrest warrant, presumably the parents will then be released very quickly from the Spanish jail.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ashya-king-parents-spend-another-night-in-spanish-custody-as-91000-people-call-for-their-release-9705467.html

Calina

Hospital statement:

http://www.uhs.nhs.uk/AboutTheTrust/Newsandpublications/Latestnews/2014/Latest-statement-in-relation-to-Ashya-King,-2-September-2014.aspx

Fiolina

Apparently the father is at the hospital in Malaga now but they won't let him see Ashya because he's a ward of court. WTF

gctest50

laserlad2010 wrote: »

...........

I refuse to accept that the full details are out there, and am just drawing from international standard practice in paediatrics. Social media has distorted the general public's understanding of the evidence and success behind the experimental treatments offered to desperate parents. The harsh reality is that these children, in the vast majority of cases, do not get better.

maybe they have

"tired, burnt-out surgeons and ABSOLUTE d**ks"

over there too, and the family needed to get him out of there asap



Since you reckon Tullamore has "tired, burnt-out surgeons and ABSOLUTE d**ks" , chance they might be elsewhere too ? :

laserlad2010 wrote: »

Only spotted your post there now. Soon-to-be ex-UCD Student, spent a few weeks there during my clinical years. How can I present this to you fairly?

Tullamore is a beautiful new hospital. Lovely wards etc. etc. Crippled by HSE cutbacks (80 out of 320 beds shut)

Surgery - A load of b****x. I'm not going to name names but there you will meet tired, burnt-out surgeons and ABSOLUTE d**ks. Plus, all they do there are gallbladders, appendices and some minor bowel resections. Nothing exciting. I hate to portray it like that, but im not going to pull any punches.

Medicine - I have less experience here. From friends feedback, some consultants were nice, Emergency Medicine was good I think.

Staff - I know that the Mater send interns to Tullamore, so they'd be more than happy to help you during their elective. Otherwise I have seen some shocking excuses for doctors in that hospital. As you know yourself, the training posts will have decent docs but there are quite a few non-training posts there.

Students - None that I know of during the summer. You may come across Limerick students who through sheer idiocy have established themselves as "sub-interns" rather than students, and as such are abused by staff in terms of errands. They will probably have deluded themselves into thinking that they are superior to normal med students, but a few events occurred when I was there to convince me that they were no better, in fact perhaps worse considering they had insisted on, and been allowed to, take on inappropriate responsibility.

All in all, you won't win any prizes for having this on your CV. Then again I had no interest in point-scoring either. To be honest, having looked back on it all as a final year, my advice on electives is this:

1. Do something you think you would like to do later.
2. Find someone who can inspire you/has a reputation for being top notch (not necessarily has to be in James/Tallaght)
3. Don't pick something hard. You'll start to hate it 3 days in, cos you should be off on holidays.

Sorry for this rant but as UCD students we were treated like **** in Tullamore because UL were trying to force UCD out in education terms. With the right consultant it could be good but i don't recommend surgery at all.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77666929&postcount=2

laserlad2010

gctest50 wrote: »

maybe they have



over there too, and the family needed to get him out of there asap



Since you reckon Tullamore has "tired, burnt-out surgeons and ABSOLUTE d**ks" , chance they might be elsewhere too ? :





http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77666929&postcount=2

This... I don't even.... What are you even trying to say? Are you trying to compare a tertiary paediatric oncology centre in the UK with a small secondary unit in Tullamore?

And dredging up a post from years ago... Well done. Just.... well done.

I gave a guy a bit of advice over on the Motors forum today, fancy finding that and using it in this situation?