New Supervision and Substitution Circular

aratsarse101 · 30-08-2014 2:30pm #1

Are any of you having difficulty with the implementation of the latest method of imposing S&S?

TheDriver · 30-08-2014 3:12pm

That's a very vague one. Difficulty with the pain of having to do them or difficulty in the way they are being assigned or the way the circular works?

aratsarse101 · 30-08-2014 8:13pm

I guess I was throwing it out there to see how it was going in general, but more specifically I was wondering did anyone have problems in how it was being assigned.

jamie124 · 20-11-2014 7:42pm

Can i just ask one thing?
Why is it in my school that some teachers don't bother doing their supervision?
Various areas in my school are supervised like the cafeteria, The Corridoors, The yard etc etc, But again, Some days in the corridoors there is no teacher supervising and it is only on certain days...... Just curious because it is a little annoying.......

spurious · 20-11-2014 8:56pm

jamie124 wrote: »

Can i just ask one thing?
Why is it in my school that some teachers don't bother doing their supervision?
Various areas in my school are supervised like the cafeteria, The Corridoors, The yard etc etc, But again, Some days in the corridoors there is no teacher supervising and it is only on certain days...... Just curious because it is a little annoying.......

Can happen for a number of reasons.

In no particular order:

Not enough teachers assigned to supervision to cover all areas of the building every day
Teacher is not in - sub teacher has not been told to do it
Teacher is in but got delayed dealing with something from their previous class
Teacher is in but got delayed dealing with something from a neighbouring teacher's class
Teacher is in but also a Year Head and is dealing with something to do with that
Teacher is in but also a class tutor and is dealing with something to do with that
Teacher is in but forgot it was their day for doing it
Teacher is in but parent has showed up unannounced and wants to see them
Teacher is in but just doesn't couldn't be bothered doing it
Teacher is unwell and has not yet told the person who deals with subs

vamos! · 20-11-2014 9:32pm

spurious wrote: »

Can happen for a number of reasons.

In no particular order:
Not enough teachers assigned to supervision to cover all areas of the building every day

Teacher is not in - sub teacher has not been told to do it

Teacher is in but got delayed dealing with something from their previous class

Teacher is in but got delayed dealing with something from a neighbouring teacher's class

Teacher is in but also a Year Head and is dealing with something to do with that

Teacher is in but also a class tutor and is dealing with something to do with that

Teacher is in but forgot it was their day for doing it

Teacher is in but parent has showed up unannounced and wants to see them

Teacher is in but just doesn't couldn't be bothered doing it

Teacher is unwell and has not yet told the person who deals with subs

Add: Teacher has been given a bonus free class when Transition Years are away/ Seniors go to Higher Options and heads out for a rare lunch with colleagues. While deciding whether or not to have a coffee after lunch teacher realises their supervision started 10 mins ago and they are never going to make it. Teacher runs towards school muttering decades of the rosary and praying that their will be no 'incidents' for them to be held responsible for.

pinkbear · 20-11-2014 10:14pm

OP - There doesn't appear to be any problems with its implementation in my school

ethical · 20-11-2014 11:13pm

The same old failings are there as before....teachers do not check to see if they are 'caught'or not or so they say!!
Have noted in some schools that the Principal and Deputy Principal do not DO ANY SUBSTITUTION OR SUPERVISION!!!.Thought there might be an onus on them to at least do some lunch/break supervision!!!!!!!

paddybarry · 21-11-2014 9:49am

ethical wrote: »

The same old failings are there as before....teachers do not check to see if they are 'caught'or not or so they say!!
Have noted in some schools that the Principal and Deputy Principal do not DO ANY SUBSTITUTION OR SUPERVISION!!!.Thought there might be an onus on them to at least do some lunch/break supervision!!!!!!!

Ethical,
Why do you not raise these concerns at staff meetings under AOB?

ethical · 21-11-2014 6:31pm

I do!! but you must understand 'corruption' and 'collusion'....rampant in the profession!

seavill · 21-11-2014 9:08pm

In reality, in any school I have been in big and small, Principals and deputy principals are out on the corridor/yard/front door, more than any other teacher whether timetabled or not. It may be mornings before school when the school is open before any other teachers arrive, mornings as the kids are arriving, after school etc. aside from ususal break times and lunch times. In my current school, and past schools, the principal and DP often fill in when there isn't enough people available to cover on an occasion or if a teacher gets called away at short notice etc.
Just my experience of P and DPs in probably 7 or 8 schools I've been in. Have never looked to see are they officially on the rota for S&S but constantly seen around either way

spurious · 21-11-2014 9:24pm

That would be my experience too, that the Principals and Deputies do way more than the rest of the staff.They were on our rota, but often did extra.

jamie124 · 22-11-2014 12:23am

spurious wrote: »

Can happen for a number of reasons.

In no particular order:
Not enough teachers assigned to supervision to cover all areas of the building every day

Teacher is not in - sub teacher has not been told to do it

Teacher is in but got delayed dealing with something from their previous class

Teacher is in but got delayed dealing with something from a neighbouring teacher's class

Teacher is in but also a Year Head and is dealing with something to do with that

Teacher is in but also a class tutor and is dealing with something to do with that

Teacher is in but forgot it was their day for doing it

Teacher is in but parent has showed up unannounced and wants to see them

Teacher is in but just doesn't couldn't be bothered doing it

Teacher is unwell and has not yet told the person who deals with subs

-- The one you say when the teacher can't be bothered....-- SOME Teachers need to get a grip and just do the bloody SUPERVISION!! Thanks anyways :-)

spurious · 22-11-2014 10:54am

jamie124 wrote: »

-- The one you say when the teacher can't be bothered....-- SOME Teachers need to get a grip and just do the bloody SUPERVISION!! Thanks anyways :-)

Probably, much like some students need to do their work and some parents need to cop on and be parents.
There are slackers in every field of life. No more or no less in teaching.

ustazjoseph · 24-11-2014 8:30pm

We find the timetabling of part time teachers for substitution difficult, Generally when they are in they are working. When they're not working for us they're working for someone else somewhere else.

jamie124 · 26-11-2014 9:10pm

spurious wrote: »

Probably, much like some students need to do their work and some parents need to cop on and be parents.
There are slackers in every field of life. No more or no less in teaching.

Yes, You are right, But the part I do not get is that there are always a lot of "incidents" by the Students during breaks and lunches in the corridoors when a teacher isn't present supervising when they should be.
I have reported it....... I am hoping it will be resolved....
I think the problem is that:
1. The Supervision timetable for the corridoors is not allocated properly.
2. The teacher that is meant to be supervising just can't be bothered or keeps "forgetting" .
3. They just don't care about the safety.....

Last year wasn't a problem at all, Every teacher that was meant to be supervising supervised.....
This year, Not so lucky......

evolving_doors · 27-11-2014 8:48pm

Bring it up at the next staff meeting. Or if you don't want to stick your head above the parapet then email the principal and outline some of the incidents that have happened and mention that the school might be held liable if a teacher is not present!

Also you could raise it in terms of "Should we be locking the classrooms during lunch... should there be students hanging around in certain areas of the corridors during lunch... why are students eating their lunches in undesignated areas (In the lunch-hall!)".
It sounds like a bit of a free for all in your school with students wandering all over the gaffe.. hence they've been cut some slack so they're taking the proverbial by acting out. Ask some of the younger students yourself do they feel safe in the school at lunchtime, I'll bet if there are unsupervised 'dark areas' then more than likely it is a safe spot for bullying to take place!.

I've assumed you are a teacher! if not then it might be one for a students council if ye have a functioning one. They might raise the issue by writing a letter to the Board of Management ..as far as I'm aware, any letter addressed to the BOM has to be read into the minutes (I could be wrong though if anyone would like to set me straight on that! )

jamie124 · 29-11-2014 1:28am

Armelodie wrote: »

Bring it up at the next staff meeting. Or if you don't want to stick your head above the parapet then email the principal and outline some of the incidents that have happened and mention that the school might be held liable if a teacher is not present!

Also you could raise it in terms of "Should we be locking the classrooms during lunch... should there be students hanging around in certain areas of the corridors during lunch... why are students eating their lunches in undesignated areas (In the lunch-hall!)".
It sounds like a bit of a free for all in your school with students wandering all over the gaffe.. hence they've been cut some slack so they're taking the proverbial by acting out. Ask some of the younger students yourself do they feel safe in the school at lunchtime, I'll bet if there are unsupervised 'dark areas' then more than likely it is a safe spot for bullying to take place!.

I've assumed you are a teacher! if not then it might be one for a students council if ye have a functioning one. They might raise the issue by writing a letter to the Board of Management ..as far as I'm aware, any letter addressed to the BOM has to be read into the minutes (I could be wrong though if anyone would like to set me straight on that! )

Yes , The Students wander ALL OVER THE PLACE in my school the yard, the canteen, the main building, and of course THE CORRIDOORS (A HOTSPOT FOR BULLYING AND MESSING) yep, well I am actually a student would you believe and i am highly concerned because there are lockers in the corridoors (where my one is) and it puts me at risk of either getting called names, pushed, caught up in a fight that is taking place etc etc.... There are always STUPID FIGHTS during the lunches in the hallways - NO TEACHER OF COURSE HALF THE TIME.... Like I really don't get the problem here......

IF THERE ARE ANY OTHER STUDENTS/TEACHERS ON THIS THREAD HERE:
What areas in your school are supervised during breaks and lunches?
Is there ever any hassle with a teacher that is meant to be on duty?
any stories as regarding Supervision (whether or not you are a teacher)
Thanks.

evolving_doors · 29-11-2014 8:50am

ok well fair play to you for sussing out the lay of the land. Definitely a potential problem here in terms of negligence.

Our school students are continuously thrown off corridors and directed back to lunchhall if they are hanging around (the layout of the school means that the corridors can't be out of bounds). Classrooms are out of bounds though.

Is your students council any good? Maybe raise the issue anonymously (some student reps would love to have a cause to annoy the establishment... and rightly so).

Or, go the anonymous route... take note of
1. where incidents are taking place.
2. Feelings amongst other students about bullying being let happen without teacher intervention.
3. When incidents take place (exact day/time)
Sum up that it is essentially due to negligence because teachers failing to turn up to do the agreed times for supervision.
Also mention that you will be forwarding your concerns to the parents association and Board of Management in a few weeks if things don't change.
Copy the letter, post it to.
1. The Union Representative...school address
2. The principal + school address
3. The vice principal + school address

I wouldn't sign my name to it though!

Maybe thats a bit extreme though ! What do other teachers on here think?

jamie124 · 29-11-2014 11:13pm

Thank you, That is very helpful, I have told my vice-principal (who is my year head also) - which is an advantage, But 2 weeks later still NO CHANGE :-( I'm not happy About this at all and I don't feel safe in my school anymore :-( I don't think:
1. It's not fair on the Students - Puts ALL Normal Students at risk who are minding their own business.
2. Teachers/Principal etc need to carry out the supervision that is required that is physically and clearly IN WRITING to be carried out.

The Student Council on the other hand, well, They're a different story altogether, The Student Council in my school is not really Physically Active and kind of unheard of recently for some weird reason plus, I have not a clue who is on it.....

I have taken all of the appropriate steps like:
1. I went to my Vice-Principal
2. I told my career guidance counselor about it. (He let the Vice-Principal know.)
3. The Vice-Principal , I assume checked it out.

The Situation is still the same..... What do I do?
I Could:
1. Ignore it and not let it get to me.
2. TAKE PROPER ACTION.- eg- Write a letter of complaint to the PRINCIPAL , The Parents Association , The Board Of Management.

Do I have the authority to do that as a school Student?

And no, I'm not a freak.

evolving_doors · 30-11-2014 12:52pm

spurious wrote: »

Probably, much like some students need to do their work and some parents need to cop on and be parents.
There are slackers in every field of life. No more or no less in teaching.

Just as a follow up to Jamie124 's concern; There are indeed slackers in every field... but, I would argue that the liability could fall on the school/teacher if an incident occurs and it was shown that teachers had not been present when they were required to be. Would it not be the same if I brought students to a play and headed out to meet a friend while they were supposed to be watching the play... suppose a student wanders off and gets hit by a car! Isn't the teacher at fault for not fulfilling their duty of care (to the best of their abilities).

So taking the analogy and applying it to within the school, I'm sure that an allowance would be made if, on a few rare occasions, extenuating circumstances arose (teacher had a heart attack or something!) and nobody was there to supervise when an incident occurred. In this case I don;t think the school/teacher could be held liable.

However, if on a consistent basis:

1. No supervision took place, for no justifiable reason other than "forgetting to show up".
2. It was brought to the attention of whoever organises it / or runs the school.
3. Nothing was done.

Like you can be a teacher and be late to your class the odd time, but if you have been late regularly and your principal was made aware, but you still were late then I would assume you/school are liable if an incident occurred!

evolving_doors · 30-11-2014 1:06pm

jamie124 wrote: »

Thank you, That is very helpful, I have told my vice-principal (who is my year head also) - which is an advantage, But 2 weeks later still NO CHANGE :-( I'm not happy About this at all and I don't feel safe in my school anymore :-( I don't think:
1. It's not fair on the Students - Puts ALL Normal Students at risk who are minding their own business.
2. Teachers/Principal etc need to carry out the supervision that is required that is physically and clearly IN WRITING to be carried out.

The Student Council on the other hand, well, They're a different story altogether, The Student Council in my school is not really Physically Active and kind of unheard of recently for some weird reason plus, I have not a clue who is on it.....

I have taken all of the appropriate steps like:
1. I went to my Vice-Principal
2. I told my career guidance counselor about it. (He let the Vice-Principal know.)
3. The Vice-Principal , I assume checked it out.

The Situation is still the same..... What do I do?
I Could:
1. Ignore it and not let it get to me.
2. TAKE PROPER ACTION.- eg- Write a letter of complaint to the PRINCIPAL , The Parents Association , The Board Of Management.

Do I have the authority to do that as a school Student?

And no, I'm not a freak.

jamie124 wrote: »

Do I have the authority to do that as a school Student?
.

It's a free country so nothing wrong with outlining your concerns. So, you don't need any authority to raise concerns about not feeling safe in the school.

So the long and short of it I would say is to put it in writing, keep it very brief. Write the same letter to both the Vice and Principal to outline your concerns (give dates/times/locations etc). Also send the same contents in an email. Perhaps the BOM and Parents Association might be a bit too far (although the usual procedure is to go the Principal route first!). I don't really know the extent of the situation though but the usual thing for a school to do is to err on the side of caution and check things out.

Maybe at this stage the best thing to do would be to hand the matter over to your parents. Be careful about attributing everything to "the lack of supervision" or naming teachers, that would be just the opinion of one student and could be viewed by some as a "typical teacher blame game by an annoyed student". Just stick to what you have observed (time/day/location/nature of incident) and let the others draw their own conclusions.

spurious · 01-12-2014 5:11pm

Be careful what you ask for.

If there are not enough staff to cover the multiple places where bullying and dossing could occur, you will find doors and corridors locked and possibly a crowded sitaution at lunch and small breaks.

evolving_doors · 01-12-2014 6:49pm

spurious wrote: »

Be careful what you ask for.

If there are not enough staff to cover the multiple places where bullying and dossing could occur, you will find doors and corridors locked and possibly a crowded sitaution at lunch and small breaks.

This indeed is true, since we started patrolling, the main objective is to shoo all the little groups eating back to the lunch hall... now its jammers.

Although in saying that pupils are allowed walk around once they aren't eating. I wonder though for Jamie124 's situation are the 'trouble spots' supposed to be out of bounds at huiduring break

jamie124 · 01-12-2014 11:58pm

Armelodie wrote: »

This indeed is true, since we started patrolling, the main objective is to shoo all the little groups eating back to the lunch hall... now its jammers.

Although in saying that pupils are allowed walk around once they aren't eating. I wonder though for Jamie124 's situation are the 'trouble spots' supposed to be out of bounds at huiduring break

Hi There Armelodie,
No, The corridoors are not "out of bounds" , Students can come and go as they please and they are allowed to hang out there too, But a lot of the time there is no teacher supervising and other days there is, Again, Its only on certain days so obviously the teacher supposed to be on duty cant be bothered to bloody show up and do their job, Anyways, That is just my opinion, I am a Student in the school.

The Vice Principal is investigating what the problem is and he actually does the supervision when there is no teacher present so i don't know....

My point is.... It is NOT SAFE when there is no teacher supervising the corridoors and by the way, there is NO WAY they are just going to cramp us all in the canteen because they are just not like that and that's why the teachers are given "hallway duty" for a reason, So that they wont have to.

seavill · 02-12-2014 9:42am

It could be a case that they don't have enough people to do s&s going on what you just said.

If the DP is doing the supervision in the area where there is no teacher on experience I would suggest they have no one to do it. If someone was timetabled to do it he would go after them and get them to do it rather than constantly step in himself.
Each school would be different on the number of teachers available for supervision at breaks.
The issue may not actually be people are just not turning up

r93kaey5p2izun · 02-12-2014 9:50am

I agree with seavill. That sounds Iike the most likely problem here.

evolving_doors · 02-12-2014 11:10am

I wonder though if this is a new phenomenum Jamie124 ? Is it just recently that things have changed?
School misbehaviour can avalanche quite rapidly though if students spot a 'gap in the fence'.
Before this term Jamie124 was there always fulltime supervision done by teachers ?

I would echo the point that a lot of teachers may have paid to opt out of the supervision in your school.

mirrorwall14 · 02-12-2014 1:57pm

I have to say our school could have a student posting something similar here as students are permitted all over the building, there simply isn't enough of is to cover all the ground. Kids sit all over the school including the floor of the corridors for lunch. We've brought it up multiple times at staff meetings but with no canteen and a massive student population it's a tough one to solve

jamie124 · 02-12-2014 9:18pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I have to say our school could have a student posting something similar here as students are permitted all over the building, there simply isn't enough of is to cover all the ground. Kids sit all over the school including the floor of the corridors for lunch. We've brought it up multiple times at staff meetings but with no canteen and a massive student population it's a tough one to solve

Not being rude but there has to be at least ONE teacher supervising the hallways.

mirrorwall14 · 02-12-2014 9:19pm

jamie124 wrote: »

Not being rude but there has to be at least ONE teacher supervising the hallways.

Oh there is three on the hallways but they aren't simply straight lines and you simply cannot see the whole section you are responsible for at all times

jamie124 · 02-12-2014 9:31pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Oh there is three on the hallways but they aren't simply straight lines and you simply cannot see the whole section you are responsible for at all times

Sounds bad, but at least they actually turn up in your school to supervise, In my school the teachers ( when they are bothered enough to turn up) can see both corners of the corridor it's hard to explain...

r93kaey5p2izun · 02-12-2014 9:39pm

jamie124 wrote: »

Sounds bad, but at least they actually turn up in your school to supervise, In my school the teachers ( when they are bothered enough to turn up) can see both corners of the corridor it's hard to explain...

How do you know they aren't bothered though? It is equally likely that there is just not enough people to have someone rostered every day. As Seavill said, the fact the DP is regularly covering supervision himself now you have complained makes that seem the most likely scenario. This is a consequence of the changes made to supervision and substitution arrangements by the government.

The situation is not satisfactory and you are right to make management aware of your concerns, but I don't think your assumptions are going to help your case.

spurious · 02-12-2014 9:40pm

If a school has 15 possible points that need to be watched and 8 teachers who have not paid to get out of supervision and substitution, then they have 8 people, plus possibly the Principal and DP that can cover all 15 points.

All available people could be on and still places left unsupervised.

I'm tempted to say fair play to your teachers if many of them signed to get out of the S&S. I would have joined them.

seavill · 02-12-2014 10:50pm

jamie124 wrote: »

Sounds bad, but at least they actually turn up in your school to supervise, In my school the teachers ( when they are bothered enough to turn up) can see both corners of the corridor it's hard to explain...

As I said it may not be that they are not turning up, maybe I didn't explain it properly.

In my school there are 60 teachers but 30 of them have signed up to get out of it, so that only leaves 30 people.
Those 30 people have to do 2 slots a week each. There is before school, break time, lunch time (x2). So each day there are 4 teachers that are needed for each place. In my school there would be 8 places that need supervising at each slot. Thats 32 teachers on every day.

Now take 5 days a week thats a total of 160 slots that need to be filled. However 30 teachers doing 2 slots a week each gives 60 slots filled.

That just doesn't work, that leaves 90 slots a week left to be covered, so instead of 8 places to be supervised each time that needs to be reduced to 6 places. In reality the 2 remaining places need to be locked and out of bounds. I know for one of my slots I am supervising (during the nice weather) approx. 500 students outside on my own for 20 minutes, how much of that outside area do you think I can cover on my own over 20 minutes. Its crazy.

Now the figures I have earlier are slightly exaggerated just to make the point but it could be what is happening in your school rather than people just not turning up. (the bit about my lunchtime is actaully true belive it or not)

New Supervision and Substitution Circular

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