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If you're not academic, are you f***ed?

whirlpool

If you're not academic, and therefore feel unable to partake in or to complete or do well in a degree or a masters (and so on), are you essentially screwed? Are you destined to live out your days simply existing, cheque to cheque, on an average wage?

Thoughts?

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smash

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Ireland is a cest pit of educated idiots.

Spurred on by American corporations like Google who don't hire people without degrees, unless it's a very low skilled job. They disregard experience in favor of a bit of paper from a college.

Grayson

fatknacker wrote: »

I used to live by the idea that I could get by on my smarts and wit alone. Then I went back to get a degree in my late 20's.

It depends on what area you want to work in. Good luck finding work as a doctor without a medical degree.

Computers are similar. The same for most desk jobs. They are skill specific and need training.
There's no way you'd get a job for any large company at any position higher than call centre without a degree. And progressing within the company would be hard as most promotions would specify that the applicant needs a degree.

having said that, it's not hard to get a degree. You can do a degree in just about anything. I did maths and found it was a lot of work but doable. The thing is I enjoyed maths. I would have failed any exam in english literature. Likewise if people do a mix of subjects they like, they will get a degree.
This goes for vocational training too. Do something you can do and you'll do well.

As for business men that are successful. well, one fifth of all new business fold within a year. It's something like 50% fold within 5 years. The main reasons were a lack of planning. Stuff happened and the company wasn't adequately prepared. The businesses that survive are lucky or had prepared. If they'd prepared it was either because the owner was canny enough to notice or because of education.

Education isn't everything, but it can be invaluabe in whatever field you decide to enter.

smash

Grayson wrote: »

There's no way you'd get a job for any large company at any position higher than call centre without a degree. And progressing within the company would be hard as most promotions would specify that the applicant needs a degree.

Well done on providing the most untrue post I've read this year. What a load of utter shíte.

kneemos

smash wrote: »

Well done on providing the most untrue post I've read this year. What a load of utter shíte.

Loads of people come up from the shop floor I would have thought as well.

smash

kneemos wrote: »

Loads of people come up from the shop floor I would have thought as well.

Exactly. In my first post I mentioned that a lot of American companies like Google wont hire without a degree, but there's a lot of other companies who will. I know people with nothing after their leaving cert who now have very well respected positions.

moycullen14

The most important attributes for success in any area are the a) ability and drive to get things done b) the ability to get other people to do things for you and c) the ability to get your own way.

Education and qualifications won't determine success but they will determine what you are successful at.

All things being equal, the more qualification you have, the better you will do. All things are never equal, however.

Holsten

RoboRat wrote: »

I have a friend who is a painter who is pulling in over €1500 a week
I have another friend who is a taxi driver who is pulling in over €1000 a week.
I have a masters and I am nowhere near that.

So no, you are not screwed. You just need to be excellent at what you do and think outside the box.

Please expand on this painter making more than twice the average wage.

fryup

get an apprenticeship,

Plumber, Mechanic, Electrician, Fitter, Carpenter, Welder etc etc

[Deleted User]

fryup wrote: »

get an apprenticeship,

Plumber, Mechanic, Electrician, Fitter, Carpenter, Welder etc etc

True but dose not explain how two people can come out of an apprentice and one ends up owning a company and making a lot of money and become well off, and the other ends up just making a living.

topper75

Lapin wrote: »

The world will always need ditch diggers.

Who has the heart to tell Lapin about the JCB?

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Ireland is a cest pit of educated idiots.

Cest la vie.

My memories of the college thing (I went and did it) are not good. The lecturers live in ivory towers and bleat on about meaningless abstractions. They insist that everything you write be referenced to something someone else already wrote, and this reference must go in a list at the end according to a certain pointless format. To hell with academia and academics. They have little or nothing to do with wealth creation capabilities or helping you to help your fellow man/women. Nothing I do in work on a day-to-day basis relates to my time in college. Employers ought to wake up to this.

fryup

mariaalice wrote: »

True but dose not explain how two people can come out of an apprentice and one ends up owning a company and making a lot of money and become well off, and the other ends up just making a living.

well at least neither are on the dole,

which at the end of the day is the main thing

I Heart Internet

I'd say far from it OP!

A decent vocational training, a good trade or just a good attitude might be of more value than a. n. other random degree.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Where do you think current economic theory originated from? A lot of the medicines you take? Computer systems to make your life easier? The GP you went to for your cold? A lot of these things and more are born in academic/university environments. I think that the need to have a degree to get a look in at some companies is ridiculous, but it is equally ridiculous to say that colleges/universites have nothing to do with wealth creation or helping humanity.

[Deleted User]

fryup wrote: »

well at least neither are on the dole,

which at the end of the day is the main thing

But the thread is about do you need an Education to have a chance of being well off, my point is you don't always, however you do need something else and thats the ability to plan for the future, to be disciplined, to be driven and to know what you want.

topper75

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Where do you think current economic theory originated from? A lot of the medicines you take? Computer systems to make your life easier? The GP you went to for your cold? A lot of these things and more are born in academic/university environments. I think that the need to have a degree to get a look in at some companies is ridiculous, but it is equally ridiculous to say that colleges/universites have nothing to do with wealth creation or helping humanity.

There's a current economic theory? I thought the twats were still scratching their heads wondering what went wrong in 2008.
Medicines are not developed by colleges, rather profiit-motivated pharma companies.
Computer systems are studied in colleges, yes, not invented by them (everyone else is at it though - military/corporations/teens in bedrooms)
The seven years that a GP spent in college has little to do with them handing out an anti-biotic to some punter with a cold.

Hotfail.com

xLisaBx wrote: »

You're forgetting the big difference that exists between intelligence and education.
Some of the smartest and most successful people in the world left school at 12 or 13 years old.
Some masters graduates are unemployed living off benefits.

Who?

Bill Gates got himself into Harvard but dropped out to pursue his business interests, likewise with Mark Zuckerberg, and Gabe Newell left Harvard to work for Microsoft as a one of their most important producers. Steve Jobs is documented to have had the academic ability of a 16 year old when he was 9. In any case, all of these "college dropout billionaires" seem to have had a great entrepreneurial flair and had been extremely academically gifted before they left school, which doesn't really say anything to prove that the OP's worrying about nothing. Those people are anomalies, nothing more.

Anyhow, it's fairly pointless bandying about the names (I know you didn't, but the people I mentioned above are what people always think of when they hear about "college dropout billionaires", or similar terms) of a few of the most successful people in the world who just happened not to complete college when comparing it to your average Joe who only wants to live comfortably, it's like saying you'll be living on the dole if you don't get a degree because there are so many people in that situation at the moment.

In general I imagine you'd be better off entering the workforce whilst in possession of some sort of qualification, but to say it's the be-all and end-all is nonsense in my opinion, as long as you've the right drive and attitude then you've every chance of being successful.. I know a few people who aren't academic who have decent jobs in places like EMC, although I'm fairly sure nepotism was a factor in some cases...

zl1whqvjs75cdy

topper75 wrote: »

There's a current economic theory? I thought the twats were still scratching their heads wondering what went wrong in 2008.
Medicines are not developed by colleges, rather profiit-motivated pharma companies.
Computer systems are studied in colleges, yes, not invented by them (everyone else is at it though - military/corporations/teens in bedrooms)
The seven years that a GP spent in college has little to do with them handing out an anti-biotic to some punter with a cold.

I don't even know where to start with that so I'll assume you're trolling or else have a serious chip on your shoulder.

miss no stars

MultiUmm wrote: »

Some people are practical and excel at 'doing', our education system at present is very much so geared towards those who are academically minded and it is a bit unfair.

Eh yeah, that's the point, to provide an academic education. Parents are kinda supposed to look after the rest. What do you see the point of school as being, if not to provide tuition in academic subjects?

Everyone needs a grounding in reading, writing, maths, science, geography, history and business to be able to go about their life as an adult in an informed manner. Try taking out a loan if you don't understand interest rates. Try working out which offer is better value in the supermarket if you aren't at least comfortable with arithmetic. Try getting a non-manual job with a CV littered with spelling and grammar mistakes. School gives people the academic skills needed to function as a somewhat alert person. People used to leave school after primary when their education was deemed good enough to go farming or labouring, some left after the inter-cert because they were deemed to know enough to function as an adult. Dumbing down of courses means you fairly much only reach that standard at leaving cert now. If people want to go on, or feel pressure to go on to third level, that's their choice. But schools are doing their job. After that it's up to the individual to make appropriate choices for themselves.

Grayson wrote: »

There's no way you'd get a job for any large company at any position higher than call centre without a degree. And progressing within the company would be hard as most promotions would specify that the applicant needs a degree.

That is both true and untrue. My brother has a good job in a big company (not even remotely call-centre, a professional level job) based on the experience he racked up elsewhere. However... in order to progress beyond 1 steps up from where he is he needs a degree. So the company are facilitating that and he's going to do one by night.

osarusan

topper75 wrote: »

My memories of the college thing (I went and did it) are not good. The lecturers live in ivory towers and bleat on about meaningless abstractions. They insist that everything you write be referenced to something someone else already wrote, and this reference must go in a list at the end according to a certain pointless format. To hell with academia and academics. They have little or nothing to do with wealth creation capabilities or helping you to help your fellow man/women. Nothing I do in work on a day-to-day basis relates to my time in college. Employers ought to wake up to this.

What's true for you must be true for everybody?

topper75 wrote: »

There's a current economic theory? I thought the twats were still scratching their heads wondering what went wrong in 2008.
Medicines are not developed by colleges, rather profiit-motivated pharma companies.
Computer systems are studied in colleges, yes, not invented by them (everyone else is at it though - military/corporations/teens in bedrooms)
The seven years that a GP spent in college has little to do with them handing out an anti-biotic to some punter with a cold.

Into The Blue

mariaalice wrote: »

True but dose not explain how two people can come out of an apprentice and one ends up owning a company and making a lot of money and become well off, and the other ends up just making a living.

Self confidence and the ability to spot opportunity.

osarusan

It's only a matter of time before we hear something about 'living in the real world.'

Jawgap

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Ireland is a cest pit of educated idiots.

:rolleyes:

A good idea, a bit of luck and hard work will get you far.

I'd say a lot of people's success is down to hard work......and being in the right place at the right time when an opportunity came up that they recognised. Bill Gates is probably the classic example - he may have dropped out of Harvard, but what if his Mam hadn't arranged the computer access they had at his school?

Anyway, if you measure success by wealth, then the most successful guy I know never went to college or uni. In fact, when we finished our leaving certs and trooped off to college he took a cleaning job - purely because it involved an afternoon start, meaning he could lie-in until lunchtime!

Long story - short......he figured out the cost base of the company he was working for, left, set up his own company and poached a load of contracts from his former employer as well as a few of the better staff. He now owns and runs a very large and successful building services business.

At one stage he had me working for him on some legal aspects of the business' operations. He has a bad leaving cert, I have a couple of advanced degrees!

Dave!

No, not really. For example in the industry I work in (Software development) it's becoming increasingly frowned upon for employers to give a sh*t about academic qualifications. Really – it's generally met with sarky remarks by experienced guys I've worked with if there's a job spec that places too much emphasis on education (see: Web Summit controversy a couple of months ago). You do however need to have some evidence of having an interest in the field, previous work to show, be able to talk about it, etc.

For example check out this from the Stripe jobs page. I tweeted it yesterday as an example of the kind of progressive recruitment principles that we love to see in the industry. They don't even mention education in their job specs, because as long as you have done anything else in your life, they don't give a sh*t about your degree.

aidoh

whirlpool wrote: »

If you're not academic, and therefore feel unable to partake in or to complete or do well in a degree or a masters (and so on), are you essentially screwed? Are you destined to live out your days simply existing, cheque to cheque, on an average wage?

Thoughts?

Before going to university I never would've considered myself 'academic' at all. Always floated by, just doing enough to pass in school and that sort of thing.

I ended up studying biology and really loved it. I came out with a first and then went on to do a masters and got a distinction in that. Starting a PhD now in October.

I'm not saying any of that to suck my own flute.

Simply saying that if I was able to do it, then absolutely anyone can.

The secret is to find a subject you deeply enjoy. If you love what you're studying, then reading up for exams and essays and stuff becomes less of a chore and more of a hobby. Still hard work of course but like I said, if you enjoy your topic you'll find real satisfaction in putting in the effort to try and master it.

Manach

@Dave!. Empirically speaking Id disagree. The S/W industry very much expects some form a higher education Diploma/Degree. This is based on a perusal of various job specs and former interviews. Founders of Co. like Gates can get away no qualifications, the rest of us not so much.

As for the main topic, thanks to the excellence of the foundations of the educational system, there had been a measure of seeking to excel in life in academia. Now with the phlotera of theories imported from US where the kid gets a pat on the back for trying, then this will hardly attract the best in to academic field

experiMental

It's not about being academic or non-academic. It's about having a skill that creates positive value - such as leadership, ability to make solid decisions quickly, spotting flaws, finding potential in things and people, insight, etc.

There is another spectrum of skills, such as making things, playing sports, coordination - and these are important too in some cases.

I mean you have innate skills and some of those which can be learned.

The key to life is to find the highest paying opportunity for both your innate skills and things that you can learn easily and quickly.

If that is not enough, sometimes you have to go the extra mile - such as set up your own company, or "game the system" ( e.g take advantage of incentives in tax, legal environment, etc )

topper75

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I don't even know where to start with that so I'll assume you're trolling or else have a serious chip on your shoulder.

The view contrasts with yours seemingly so I'm a troll or have a chip on my shoulder. :eek:
I say again - college and academia is a waste of time.
I'm talking from personal experience, so you won't be able to stick that in your list of 'references' at the back of the thread or 'peer-review' my post!

Apprenticeships and on-the job training are the only meaningful training for any career or occupation.

miss no stars

topper75 wrote: »

The view contrasts with yours seemingly so I'm a troll or have a chip on my shoulder. :eek:
I say again - college and academia is a waste of time.
I'm talking from personal experience, so you won't be able to stick that in your list of 'references' at the back of the thread or 'peer-review' my post!

Apprenticeships and on-the job training are the only meaningful training for any career or occupation.

lol

nope.

[Deleted User]

topper75 wrote: »

The view contrasts with yours seemingly so I'm a troll or have a chip on my shoulder. :eek:
I say again - college and academia is a waste of time.
I'm talking from personal experience, so you won't be able to stick that in your list of 'references' at the back of the thread or 'peer-review' my post!

Apprenticeships and on-the job training are the only meaningful training for any career or occupation.

In order to do an apprentice you do have periods of college where you will have to study and pass exams.

Grayson

miss no stars wrote: »

That is both true and untrue. My brother has a good job in a big company (not even remotely call-centre, a professional level job) based on the experience he racked up elsewhere. However... in order to progress beyond 1 steps up from where he is he needs a degree. So the company are facilitating that and he's going to do one by night.

I should point out that I'm in a large company and I'm not in the call centre. I started there but I managed to get promoted three times in the first 18 months. 4 years later and I'm still in the same position because I reached that point where I need a degree.