The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

K.O.Kiki

I find it hard to believe these media personalities received death threats or were forced to leave their homes, when they publicly announce that stuff on Twitter.
YOU DO NOT TELL A POTENTIAL ATTACKER WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

Also, Anita Sarkeesian is massively behind schedule on her videos, but noone wants to cover that.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Kind of hard to make money from a free game as well.

kunst nugget wrote: »

It'd be interesting to see how much she made from donations.

http://www.patreon.com/zoe

$3,405.22 / month (currently)

Addendum: many journalists are/were donating to her, too:

gizmo

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

I find it hard to believe these media personalities received death threats or were forced to leave their homes, when they publicly announce that stuff on Twitter.
YOU DO NOT TELL A POTENTIAL ATTACKER WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

So, given the events that have occurred you're essentially suggesting they've:

• Submitted false police reports to both local and federal authorities.
• Publicly lied via social media.
• Publicly lied on stage at events such as XOXO and TedxWomen.
• Either doctored themselves or organised the doctoring of the death threats received by and directed to both themselves and their family, not to mention the other similar communications which were sent to the USU and other venues in the past?

Really?!

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Also, Anita Sarkeesian is massively behind schedule on her videos, but noone wants to cover that.

What schedule?

Also, from what I've read, she posts regular updates to her Kickstarter backers on the progress of videos. Not that I don't find the time between each video somewhat excessive personally but I think it's the backers who would be in the best position to complain, don't you?

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

MORE INFOGRAPHICS

Yay! More of these images full of sound logic. I'm sure the senior staff at Destuctoid really let the resident Video Host/Producer dictate what content they cover on their site. Similarly, it's nice to know that talking over Twitter and backing someone on Patreon makes them "closely affiliated" by these peoples definitions. Pity it's not by the definition of the Guardian editors and legal team. And look, bringing up people she's slept with at Kotaku again despite it being shown to be demonstrably irrelevant, nevermind the lunacy of suggesting a site wide black out of information on there because one guy had a fling with her.

But yea, again, ethics...

K.O.Kiki

gizmo wrote: »

So, given the events that have occurred you're essentially suggesting they've:

• Submitted false police reports to both local and federal authorities.
• Publicly lied via social media.
• Publicly lied on stage at events such as XOXO and TedxWomen.
• Either doctored themselves or organised the doctoring of the death threats received by and directed to both themselves and their family, not to mention the other similar communications which were sent to the USU and other venues in the past?

Really?!

• 911 calls are available under Freedom-of-Information Act.
  AFAIK, no police report was ever found. I will be happy to be debunked.
• Anyone can lie on social media. It's pretty easy.
• Again, anyone can lie on stage. Especially when no one can call you out on it.
  Saw that same crap with Creationists.
• I won't go full-on conspiracy on your first point.
  I will point out that whoever sent the death threats to Utah State University was coming at her with a purely anti 3rd-wave feminism angle.

What schedule?

Also, from what I've read, she posts regular updates to her Kickstarter backers on the progress of videos. Not that I don't find the time between each video somewhat excessive personally but I think it's the backers who would be in the best position to complain, don't you?

She is taking the piss with the time between videos.
Full stop.

I'm surprised her backers aren't annoyed at the fact their money is mostly disappearing into her rent.

Yay! More of these images full of sound logic. I'm sure the senior staff at Destuctoid really let the resident Video Host/Producer dictate what content they cover on their site. Similarly, it's nice to know that talking over Twitter and backing someone on Patreon makes them "closely affiliated" by these peoples definitions. Pity it's not by the definition of the Guardian editors and legal team. And look, bringing up people she's slept with at Kotaku again despite it being shown to be demonstrably irrelevant, nevermind the lunacy of suggesting a site wide black out of information on there because one guy had a fling with her.

But yea, again, ethics...

I'm not touching this area of your post until I re-read more on this.

Links234

gizmo wrote: »

So, given the events that have occurred you're essentially suggesting they've:

• Submitted false police reports to both local and federal authorities.
• Publicly lied via social media.
• Publicly lied on stage at events such as XOXO and TedxWomen.
• Either doctored themselves or organised the doctoring of the death threats received by and directed to both themselves and their family, not to mention the other similar communications which were sent to the USU and other venues in the past?

Really?!

Tbh

https://twitter.com/daraobriain/status/523776008303181824

mewso

If you have suspicions about the veracity of these peoples' claims of abuse/threats then fine but they remain simply suspicions. If you take these suspicions to a discussion and air them with little or no evidence other than "very convenient" and "nobody does that when they get threatened" types of arguments then congratulations you've just joined the lunatic fringe of #gamerwhatever.

It's been said already but gamersgate is toxic now and it needs to go away. Until it does nobody who wants to have a sane discussion on any of these topics is going to be able to do so. Entertaining notions of loonies making up death threats citing a jpeg with red text pointing at tweets as proof is just a waste of energy that can be better put to playing games.

johnny_ultimate

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Also, Anita Sarkeesian is massively behind schedule on her videos, but noone wants to cover that.

EXPOSED: Anita Sarkeesian delivers videos slowly.

gizmo

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

• 911 calls are available under Freedom-of-Information Act.
  AFAIK, no police report was ever found. I will be happy to be debunked.
• Anyone can lie on social media. It's pretty easy.
• Again, anyone can lie on stage. Especially when no one can call you out on it.
  Saw that same crap with Creationists.
• I won't go full-on conspiracy on your first point.
  I will point out that whoever sent the death threats to Utah State University was coming at her with a purely anti 3rd-wave feminism angle.

[

Here is a piece which deals with the original articles about her interactions, or supposed lack thereof, with the SFPD, and the subsequent update from the department regarding both their involvement and that of the FBI in the investigation. Here's Milo Yiannopoulos confirming it too.

Of course everyone can lie, the point being does it really make sense that she would risk so much by doing it so publicly? If it were to transpire that she was involved in any kind of fraudulent activity it wouldn't just be the end of her career, she'd be facing some pretty serious criminal charges given the severity of the threats and the involvement of the various law enforcement agencies, both presently and in the past at events like GDC.

Note, news about the GDC bomb threat was only released last week by the organisers. Kind of throws more water on the idea that she's just publicising them for her own gain, don't you think?

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

She is taking the piss with the time between videos.
Full stop.

I'm surprised her backers aren't annoyed at the fact their money is mostly disappearing into her rent.

If I was a backer I too would have liked to see the videos come out in a more timely fashion. That being said I imagine I would be more understanding given the events which have occurred since the end of the campaign, especially if they were accompanied by reasonable updates to the backers.

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

I'm not touching this area of your post until I re-read more on this.

May I politely ask that you do a small bit of research into these info dumps before posting them in the future. Most of the information on that page has already been disproven on this very thread with appropriate links, nevermind the points that can be referenced (such as the first one above) with a quick Google. If anything, it'll help keep the debate in general more focused without the need for pointless tangents.

richymcdermott

I have no where else to post this but it seems we have a new idiot developer to take over phil fish throne by a developer of a game called paranautical activity on steam that today got his game removed from steam after going rapid on twitter and threatned to kill gabe.


Valve came out and said they have no problem with developers speaking out on frustration but they draw the line with death threats given.

http://ie.ign.com/articles/2014/10/21/valve-pulls-game-off-steam-after-dev-threatens-gabe-newell-online

kunst nugget

richymcdermott wrote: »

I have no where else to post this but it seems we have a new idiot developer to take over phil fish throne by a developer of a game called paranautical activity on steam that today got his game removed from steam after going rapid on twitter and threatned to kill gabe.


Valve came out and said they have no problem with developers speaking out on frustration but they draw the line with death threats given.

http://ie.ign.com/articles/2014/10/21/valve-pulls-game-off-steam-after-dev-threatens-gabe-newell-online

Pretty stupid move from your man but it kind of has zip to do with the gamergate stuff. Why does Phil Fish annoy you so much?

Genghiz Cohen

richymcdermott wrote: »

I have no where else to post this but it seems we have a new idiot developer to take over phil fish throne by a developer of a game called paranautical activity on steam that today got his game removed from steam after going rapid on twitter and threatned to kill gabe.


Valve came out and said they have no problem with developers speaking out on frustration but they draw the line with death threats given.

http://ie.ign.com/articles/2014/10/21/valve-pulls-game-off-steam-after-dev-threatens-gabe-newell-online

It doesn't even make sense.
GabeN is eternal.

Penn

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

I find it hard to believe these media personalities received death threats or were forced to leave their homes, when they publicly announce that stuff on Twitter.
YOU DO NOT TELL A POTENTIAL ATTACKER WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

Makes perfect sense to me. People are calling your home phone number or giving out your address publicly for the purposes of harassment, of course you'd announce it on Twitter, because it could help to deter people from doing it if they know she's not there. If you were one of the people, for example, calling her home phone, you'd stop if you knew she wasn't there. Or if threats being made against her, announce that you're not there so any potential attacker won't know where she is.

You also have to allow for elements of panic and how many people were already following what was happening (from both sides) and wanting to keep people abreast of the dangers these people were facing. I see no reason why them announcing these things on Twitter would have any bearing on whether or not they should be believed.

It's easy to say you wouldn't do the same thing in the same situation, or that most people wouldn't do it. Not as easy when faced with that actual situation, and without the benefit of hindsight.

Generic Dreadhead

Well someone has started a "Gamergate" thread in After Hours. It'll be good to get some informed opinions on the whole thing :pac:

CiDeRmAn

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

EXPOSED: Anita Sarkeesian delivers videos slowly.

I genuinely haven't a clue about this whole business.
I also lack the will to trawl through all the posts, messages, tweets, lies, truth and hyperbole to figure it out for myself, or from an opinion, or latch onto someone populars opinion.

Any chance of a 24 style recap?

Previously on Gamergate....

shruikan2553

I've done some reading on this. Is this entire situation really just about one side claiming its about journalism ethics while the other claims its just some misogyny crap?

gizmo

kunst nugget wrote: »

Pretty stupid move from your man but it kind of has zip to do with the gamergate stuff. Why does Phil Fish annoy you so much?

Well at the very least it's an interesting example of how some companies deal with death threats to employees. Another example would be Microsoft with Stephen Toulouse, the former Director of Xbox LIVE Policy and Enforcement for the company. He left back in 2012 and one of the reasons was that MS didn't know how to deal with the abuse and threats he was receiving.

On the subject of Paranautical Activity, while not a fan of the devs behaviour form the get go, I do feel sorry for the other half of the team who is not only dealing with the fallout from his partners actions professionally but is also on the receiving end of a bunch of vitriol over Twitter it seems.

kunst nugget

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I genuinely haven't a clue about this whole business.
I also lack the will to trawl through all the posts, messages, tweets, lies, truth and hyperbole to figure it out for myself, or from an opinion, or latch onto someone populars opinion.

Any chance of a 24 style recap?

Previously on Gamergate....

Previously on Gamergate… a mysterious fog descended on the internet and nobody knew who they were fighting anymore, only that they were fighting about something because they were angry. They didn't really know what they were angry about, only that it could have possibly had something to do with journalists or women or people that played games or some such. It was pretty hard to tell what the anger was about, all people knew is that because of this anger they had developed an extraordinary ability to be offended by any perceived slight and that they must document these perceived slights in long jpeg form so that others could be as angry and confused about these perceived slights as they were. Because women. Or gamers. Or something.

wes

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I've done some reading on this. Is this entire situation really just about one side claiming its about journalism ethics while the other claims its just some misogyny crap?

Pretty much, yeah.

Generic Dreadhead

kunst nugget wrote: »

Previously on Gamergate… a mysterious fog descended on the internet and nobody knew who they were fighting anymore, only that they were fighting about something because they were angry. They didn't really know what they were angry about, only that it could have possibly had something to do with journalists or women or people that played games or some such. It was pretty hard to tell what the anger was about, all people knew is that because of this anger they had developed an extraordinary ability to be offended by any perceived slight and that they must document these perceived slights in long jpeg form so that others could be as angry and confused about these perceived slights as they were. Because women. Or gamers. Or something.

I have to disagree with you :mad:
Infograph incoming shortly

kunst nugget

Cormac... wrote: »

I have to disagree with you :mad:
Infograph incoming shortly

I'll refute your infograph with a detailed breakdown of Twitter conversations between people I couldn't give two shíts about.

Generic Dreadhead

kunst nugget wrote: »

I'll refute your infograph with a detailed breakdown of Twitter conversations between people I couldn't give two shíts about.

Those tweets were tweeted BEFORE the event so it's irrational to suggest they be considered and they have since been deleted also those 2 people don't follow each other so your argument is invalid because Private Twitter Account

Also: Anonymous, 4Chan, LizardSquad and Reddit + Letters for SubReddits and People on those sites

CiDeRmAn

kunst nugget wrote: »

Previously on Gamergate… a mysterious fog descended on the internet and nobody knew who they were fighting anymore, only that they were fighting about something because they were angry. They didn't really know what they were angry about, only that it could have possibly had something to do with journalists or women or people that played games or some such. It was pretty hard to tell what the anger was about, all people knew is that because of this anger they had developed an extraordinary ability to be offended by any perceived slight and that they must document these perceived slights in long jpeg form so that others could be as angry and confused about these perceived slights as they were. Because women. Or gamers. Or something.

Well, after the PS4/XBox One thread was closed, all that built up anger had to go somewhere....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qq6dQwLh1s

Generic Dreadhead

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Well, after the PS4/XBox One thread was closed, all that built up anger had to go somewhere

True, very true.
In fact once I stopped actively contributing to this thread I found myself a lot happier off, genuinely.

Evac101

Hrm - can I request that folk post somewhat more calmly? This is not an attempt at back seat modding but simply, as I said earlier, as soon as I see people posting passionately I immediately feel a need to disengage because it's no longer a debate but polemic rhetoric being flung back and forth without actually achieving anything constructive.

Nobody posting here takes the idea of death threats, sexism or harassment lightly, accusing anyone of that just detracts from the larger conversation and I'm enjoying expanding my understanding of this whole games, games criticism and games as art conglomeration of subjects.

Once again, I have no moral or actual authority here - this is merely a request and if it's an inappropriate one that feel free to delete this Mods.

<edit And I do realise that wasn't the original 'thrust' of the thread but we seemed to wander into that for a while and it was, as they say, good />

kunst nugget

Do people really think this thread is bad or full of ill-feeling? I think it's pretty tame tbh…

shruikan2553

wes wrote: »

Pretty much, yeah.

It does explain a lot. I used to read joystiq but at this stage every few articles are just "Woman fell down the stairs in France this is similar to what people have been threatening Anita Sarkeesian with"

I suppose its in game journalisms interests to peddle the misogyny side of things.

Shiminay

I think this thread has been the most sensible discussion about the whole mess that I've seen anywhere else on the Internet Evac

Generic Dreadhead

Shiminay wrote: »

I think this thread has been the most sensible discussion about the whole mess that I've seen anywhere else on the Internet Evac

I'd have to agree

Evac101

Some of the posts regarding harassment and peoples attitude towards it were getting a little too feely for me - I may just be a delicate flower

DeVore

shruikan2553 wrote: »

It does explain a lot. I used to read joystiq but at this stage every few articles are just "Woman fell down the stairs in France this is similar to what people have been threatening Anita Sarkeesian with"

I suppose its in game journalisms interests to peddle the misogyny side of things.

This is what irks me... allowing one side to define the other is a very poor. Imagine if we allowed Israelis to define Palestinians and then said "ok, now lets have a debate about this conflict within those parameters".

Game "journalism" absolutely stinks. The agendas of "identity politics", when they are unchecked, lead to "offence culture" where people seem to LOOK for offence, and also to politically-correct censorship.

The problem is as Mewso said GG has been corrupted both by the actions of a sizeable minority of people on the GG side and the preponderance of the other side to use those actions to smear everyone involved until no one wants to get involved.

Its very much a "squid-ink" defense and something I've seen used in a lot of extreme "identity politics" arguments. In their defence, the idiots who have been trolling and threatening have made this all too easy and frankly are to blame for mixing the message (if that message was ever in fact their intention... a sizeable number of people on the GG side seem quite happy to just troll the fnck out of AS, ZQ and others).

As Dav says, this thread is probably the most sane discussion I have seen on the topic.

There is a nuanced, complex, important discussion to be had around it.... but almost no one else seems to want to have it. They'd all rather fling poo.

Penn

DeVore wrote: »

There is a nuanced, complex, important discussion to be had around it.... but almost no one else seems to want to have it. They'd all rather fling poo.

That's why the whole thing has to be abandoned imo. There is a lot of discussion to be had regarding ethics in games journalism, but it can never be done under the Gamergate label no matter how much people try to salvage it. Abandon what's come before and try to start anew with focus on the topic and vocal opposition right out of the gate to those who try to hijack the discussion for the purposes of trolling/harassment/threats.