The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

richymcdermott

http://ie.ign.com/articles/2014/08/22/fez-creator-sells-company-after-hackers-expose-his-personal-info

I have voiced my opinions of Phil Fish after I find his opinions , his ego and everything he attacks that does not suit his own as disgusting as vile

He called quits on the gaming industry and in his own words took the money his fans gave him and made his game Fez a success and ran saying fans to shut the **** up you do not deserve a sequel and now it seems group of indivisuals have hacked phil fish and leaked out his personal information and now fish is going to sell his indie studio and the right to Fez.


While I feel for once this is a step to far as to know one should face exposing there private information and do not agree with this ever , Phil kept poking and poking and eventuallly someone going to react.

Hawke

this is your audience. to every aspiring game developer out there: don’t. give up. it’s not worth it. nothing is worth this. give up on your dreams.

Better advice: Dont be a ****e.

Duggy747

I don't agree with putting out somebody's personal information like that but I just can't drum up any sympathy for him, he's a complete dickhead and has been for years.

krudler

The guy is easily the biggest dickhead in gaming history but can't say i agree with publishing his info either. He tried to claim youtube users owed him money for people putting footage of Fez on youtube, pffft, gway.

super_furry

He was hacked and had his private information just because he defended his friend against a pretty nasty harassment campaign. This is a man who has made one of the best platformers of the last decade and whatever you think of his twitter persona, it's really ****ty that he's been forced to take such a drastic step.

Turtwig

He's a talented game developer. It's a pity he quit the industry. His behavior was dickish but people with dickish behavior and beliefs like those without those problems still produce amazing sht.. He definitely didn't deserve to have his privacy breached. The whole debacle shows how patheticly petty some humans can be. It doesn't reflect greatly on developers, gamers and the industry as a whole.

cherryghost

He wasn't 'hacked', the idiot provided secretive employee information on his own website and some people exposed it. Is basically the jist of it. Apparently he could be jailed for it.

Calhoun

What's the deal with the other developer he was defending ? Sounds a bit crazy all of it .

Calhoun

Calhoun wrote: »

What's the deal with the other developer he was defending ? Sounds a bit crazy all of it .

Google "Zoe Quinn" if you really want, it's real tabloid stuff, and from what I've read I've no idea what it actually has to do with gaming other than a games developer was involved (I mean if an accountant was involved it wouldn't have been about accounting).

Status Offline

super_furry wrote: »

He was hacked and had his private information just because he defended his friend against a pretty nasty harassment campaign. This is a man who has made one of the best platformers of the last decade and whatever you think of his twitter persona, it's really ****ty that he's been forced to take such a drastic step.

Nothing wrong with defending a friend, but when he starts calling people rapists, provoking people,attacking Total Biscuit and making underhand comments about his cancer and a fistful of other ****, he's hardly the innocent white knight the SJW idiots are making him out to be. He mightn't have deserved this but if you go poking at a bear,don't act like it's not partially your fault when you get your face ripped off.
As for Quinn, she's ****ing far from being innocent in the whole matter either.Leaving her private life to one side, she has been heavily involved in trying to censor Youtubers and sites giving her and her game negative press. Look at the Steam community page for her joke of a game.Any negative comments about her game...deleted.Also her involvement in trying to destroy a game jam similar to her own has been fairly well documented over the last few days. She was quick enough to attack other people for actions she deemed immoral, now the shoes on the other foot, she's pulling the usual SJW **** and trying to twist it to make her self out to be an innocent victim.As much as Fish brought it on himself, did Quinn. hey really pissed off the wrong people and from what I can make out,this is only the beginning of it.

pablomakaveli

Brycen Slow Stockade wrote: »

Google "Zoe Quinn" if you really want, it's real tabloid stuff, and from what I've read I've no idea what it actually has to do with gaming other than a games developer was involved (I mean if an accountant was involved it wouldn't have been about accounting).

That whole thing has turned into a massive cluster****. Whats even more worrying is how that woman seems to have so much influence with the topic being censored and various sites including some of the gaming subreddits on reddit and even 4chan.

Phil Fish was defending her but in an extremely vile way and seemed to have a meltdown on twitter.

The whole thing is a farce and has shown up the gaming industry as a joke.

pablomakaveli

Status Offline wrote: »

Nothing wrong with defending a friend, but when he starts calling people rapists, provoking people,attacking Total Biscuit and making underhand comments about his cancer and a fistful of other ****, he's hardly the innocent white knight the SJW idiots are making him out to be. He mightn't have deserved this but if you go poking at a bear,don't act like it's not partially your fault when you get your face ripped off.
As for Quinn, she's ****ing far from being innocent in the whole matter either.Leaving her private life to one side, she has been heavily involved in trying to censor Youtubers and sites giving her and her game negative press. Look at the Steam community page for her joke of a game.Any negative comments about her game...deleted.Also her involvement in trying to destroy a game jam similar to her own has been fairly well documented over the last few days. She was quick enough to attack other people for actions she deemed immoral, now the shoes on the other foot, she's pulling the usual SJW **** and trying to twist it to make her self out to be an innocent victim.As much as Fish brought it on himself, did Quinn. hey really pissed off the wrong people and from what I can make out,this is only the beginning of it.

Also worth mentioning she also sabotaged a game jam set up to encourage female game developers so she could set up her own. Both her and Phil Fish aren't exactly innocent in the whole affair.

GarIT

I really feel sorry for the guy, there's a good bit about him in 'Indie Game: The Movie'. Apparently he has battled with depression and suicidal thoughts for years. His girlfriend of a few years left him while making Fez because he was always broke. Apparently he isn't a very nice guy but he has had his fair share of difficulties, he doesn't deserve this.

Kylo Ren

The guy is a grade A dick.

richymcdermott

One of the first awards phil fish won for fez he told people to suck his dick , regardless if fez is the best platformer or if any person in general if they make the best games ever , you do not act professional you are not fit in the business.

Phil picks fights and says things to wild up people , most of his haters on twitter and media forums are probably teenagers and instead of being professional and an adult and ignoring people he fights with them.

How can you take a industry seriously when you see famous people say **** you and **** you back ?

Where is the maturity ?

krudler

GarIT wrote: »

I really feel sorry for the guy, there's a good bit about him in 'Indie Game: The Movie'. Apparently he has battled with depression and suicidal thoughts for years. His girlfriend of a few years left him while making Fez because he was always broke. Apparently he isn't a very nice guy but he has had his fair share of difficulties, he doesn't deserve this.

Then he shouldn't ben engaging people on the net if he can't handle any sort of criticism or rational arguments, I dont mean idiot youtube comments but any criticism whatsoever. The gaming industry really needs to grow up when it comes to this kind of thing.

GarIT

krudler wrote: »

Then he shouldn't ben engaging people on the net if he can't handle any sort of criticism or rational arguments, I dont mean idiot youtube comments but any criticism whatsoever. The gaming industry really needs to grow up when it comes to this kind of thing.

He was clearly asking for trouble, but I know that I've lashed out and started fights on the net when I've been depressed. It's not an easy thing to deal with. He brought it on himself but I still have some sympathy.

Sand

I don't know who Phil Fish is and I've never played Fez so his threat never to make Fez 2 is...underwhelming. So I don't appreciate the "Kony 2012" rage this man seems to inspire. If Phil Fish is a giant self entitled dick, then he's just reflecting the online community for most games. People need to grow up and develop thicker skins.

Most individual game devs really don't need individual gamers as much as individual gamers believe they do. That said, it going by the OP it seems like the online community is living up to his low expectations of them.

super_furry

For me this article sums up the whole god awful mess perfectly - http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/08/22/the-truth-about-video-game-journalism/

Status Offline

Sand wrote: »

I don't know who Phil Fish is and I've never played Fez so his threat never to make Fez 2 is...underwhelming. So I don't appreciate the "Kony 2012" rage this man seems to inspire. If Phil Fish is a giant self entitled dick, then he's just reflecting the online community for most games. People need to grow up and develop thicker skins.

Most individual game devs really don't need individual gamers as much as individual gamers believe they do. That said, it going by the OP it seems like the online community is living up to his low expectations of them.

If they don't need gamers then why don't they give their game away for free? Every other industry understands that if you piss off customers, you don't get sales.Every customer/gamer is important as they are the ones paying for the devs product.it's not the customers fault that the game is cheap and that the developer runs the business so badly that they can barely make a living from it.

I'm getting sick to the ****ing bone of indie devs acting like they're hard done by.it's their choice to be developers and deal with the public.If they want to have a successful career treat every customer like their your boss.If they can't manage that,then either get a job working for a bigger game company or don't deal with the public full stop. The way some of them go on,you'd swear that they were being held at gun point to make some ****ty game no one gives a **** about and then when they make no money from it, attack the people who actually supported them. Over entitled hipster ****s

Status Offline

super_furry wrote: »

For me this article sums up the whole god awful mess perfectly - http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/08/22/the-truth-about-video-game-journalism/

It covers a very small amount of the events leading up to the mess There's far more to it than that.It started with the ex's blog but the attacks on Quinn aren't largely to do with her personal life.Any one can type Quinn into Reddit and if you read around you'll get to see the whole story. The above article only covers one small part of the mess and it doesn't appear to dig any further than that, instead hanging on to the lazy stereotype of sexist outraged gamers attacking a poor little girl.The truth is that it looks like she Doxxed herself to make it look like there was a campaign against her and when that failed the shot really kicked off. She did it before and that was how she became noticed.

Magill

What has he actually worked on ? Just fez ? Swear he was some sort of rock star game developer the amount of exposure he gets... such a tit.

the incredible pudding

This video sums up my feelings about Fish pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w

I don't really understand why people care so much about the guy and his opinions. The guy acts like a dick, big deal! It's okay to dislike people like that but I believe anyone who feels that someone deserves to be treated so badly is behaving no better, if not worse than he is. What does it matter to you? Why does it make people so angry? It's like some antithesis to a cult of personality that the internet creates around someone they decide is an enemy. You'd swear he burned babies and fired them their remains through your window or something. I find the whole thing really pathetic.

My opinion on Phil Fish is as follows,

He made a good game,
He appears to behave like an egotistical asshole.

I don't care about the second part, it means nothing to me. I personally think you really have to look at yourself and ask why someone's relatively harmless behaviour affects you so much if you feel otherwise.

Kirby

Good riddance.

richymcdermott

Its more than him given an opinion , anyone can give an opinion but when you personally insult your fanbase then I have a problem with it.

One of his first awards he got for fez he said to everyone suck my dick.

I do not know about anyone else but if you treat me like **** regardless of who you are I wont support your game.

So I have never bought fez , never played it never will , free on ps plus I refuse to even experience it out of sheer priniciple


Talented as fish may seem I wont stand the way he treats people and no matter how much he talked down on his fanbase who want to support him he ran away from his own mess he helped stirred up.


Does he deserve all blame ? Prob not as I am sure trolls , journalist played some part but there is no free passes because you makes games , music , movies you treat the people like dirt you will get burnt in the end .

johnny_ultimate

Forgetting the circumstances of this wider cluster**** for a second (certain aspects of which make me despair for the immediate future of both gaming community and writing), I am saddened we won't see the other games Phil Fish might have made. Fez was a very often delightful piece of work, full of bold ideas and great artistic promise - a clever, unique game that revealed more and more depths as you explored and considered its world and mechanics. When I was playing the game, I forgot about Phil Fish the Twitter Personality, Provocateur and Occasional Troll and admired Phil Fish the Game Developer. I was looking forward to more of that, but sadly any lingering hopes have now been near definitively dashed. I think for his own good he's making the right call getting out of the whole industry and public limelight. Maybe (but probably not) one day he'll quietly release his next effort, divorced from everything peripheral that has come to be associated with Fez. I'd like to play it.

degrassinoel

talented game dev behaves like spoilt child, throws dummy out of pram.

the only reason i care about this is for drama value.. what'll he do next?

Dev's behaving badly

the incredible pudding

richymcdermott wrote: »

Its more than him given an opinion , anyone can give an opinion but when you personally insult your fanbase then I have a problem with it.

One of his first awards he got for fez he said to everyone suck my dick.

I do not know about anyone else but if you treat me like **** regardless of who you are I wont support your game.

So I have never bought fez , never played it never will , free on ps plus I refuse to even experience it out of sheer priniciple


Talented as fish may seem I wont stand the way he treats people and no matter how much he talked down on his fanbase who want to support him he ran away from his own mess he helped stirred up.


Does he deserve all blame ? Prob not as I am sure trolls , journalist played some part but there is no free passes because you makes games , music , movies you treat the people like dirt you will get burnt in the end .

Again, i want to firstly reiterate that I don't like nor do I dislike Phil Fish but I think you've got some things wrong.
(I can't believe I'm bothering to type this) he told one person to suck his dick, not everyone. That's an important distinction as you're feeling personally insulted by his behaviour towards some other asshole. Fish never really treated anyone that badly, he's just got a really big mouth, a really big ego and a very antagonistic personality. If someone insults him online, he (very stupidly) insults them back. It's a stupid thing to do and rightly makes him out to be a dickhead but, to my mind, doesn't remotely warrant the vitriolic response it garnered.

Phil Fish is probably an asshole but a lot of good artists are (Can we please avoid a videogame=art conversation if at all possible before anyone gets any ideas). I appreciate the art of Polanski, Allen, Eastwood, Davis etc, for their work. I'd prefer that they weren't guitly the misdeeds that they've been accused of but truthfully, I don't really give a ****. Not to the extent that it affects how I enjoy their work. I certainly dont want them to get away with anything due to their status and would hope and expect them to be punished for what they've done but don't think it really have an effect on how their work is appreciated.

On the list of good artists that are assholes, Fish is pretty damn low in terms of bad things committed. Hell, in my mind, the worst thing he did to his fans was to delay updating a savegame breaking bug in Fez until (I think) Microsoft reduced the pricing for providing patches for games.

BeerWolf

All I can say is:

AHHAHAHA-HAHAHAHA-HAHAHAHAHAaaaa....

Timmyctc

No one really deserves to have their info published in the way Quinn and Fish's has been the past few days. What Quinn did with the Game Jam was 100%(EDIT: I'm reading conflicting reports about this now so I have no idea what happened there) not on but the abuse levelled at her over speculation on how her sex life affected her game reviews was disgusting. Reddit and youtube were heavily censored and rightly so. Everyone on reddit was giving off that every other comment needed to be deleted and how it was because "Big evil Zoe" was again abusing her power, yet in the same breath spewing vitriol of the most abhorrent degree about the girl.

Fish is a different case altogether. There seems to be a lot of thinking that he may have actually posted the info himself as an excuse to sell off etc. I don't quite buy into it but with Fish its hard to rule something like that out. I genuinely think, however, that Fish (while being a bit of a dick) has some serious issues with his mental health. The guy seems to need help. I dont get why people continue to get worked up over him though. You dont like him? Don't buy his game. Simple really.

Also. People saying that this is deserved and hilarious need to take a look at themselves. If being a dick merits your important personal information being made public and your livlihood attacked, then I think a lot of us would be in the same position as Fish at one stage or another in our lives.

calex71

IMO Fez was a bit of a troll , there were elements of that game deliberately designed to do so :mad:

pablomakaveli

Timmyctc wrote: »

No one really deserves to have their info published in the way Quinn and Fish's has been the past few days. What Quinn did with the Game Jam was 100% not on but the abuse levelled at her over speculation on how her sex life affected her game reviews was disgusting. Reddit and youtube were heavily censored and rightly so. Everyone on reddit was giving off that every other comment needed to be deleted and how it was because "Big evil Zoe" was again abusing her power, yet in the same breath spewing vitriol of the most abhorrent degree about the girl.

She wasn't doxxed. It was discovered she faked the whole thing. She also knows one of the mods of r/gaming on reddit who's been deleting posts about the situation.

The fact that she's been lying and manipulating people as well as having the whole thing censored has made it far worse for her and has made her undeserving of sympathy.

super_furry

pablomakaveli wrote: »

She wasn't doxxed. It was discovered she faked the whole thing. She also knows one of the mods of r/gaming on reddit who's been deleting posts about the situation.

The fact that she's been lying and manipulating people as well as having the whole thing censored has made it far worse for her and has made her undeserving of sympathy.

The evidence for that 'fake' doxxing is tenuous at best and relies on believing a sketchy anonymous tumblr post. There's no evidence that she knew any reddit mod, there's a screenshot of a twitter conversation where a twitter mod asks her to DM him, which is evidence only that the mod was taking a proactive stance to a witch hunt.

Any person who has received rape threats, death threats and had their private life spilled across the internet because of an angry and vengeful ex-partner is deserving of sympathy to my mind.

Retr0gamer

Phil Fishs only problem is responding to the nternet which seems to be full of people that take comic book films too seriously and serious delusions about what they are entitled to. When you have nerds then exposing your personal details like this you realise what type of cretins you are dealing with. theres only one victim in this and it ain't the intrawebs.

Calhoun

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Phil Fishs only problem is responding to the nternet which seems to be full of people that take comic book films too seriously and serious delusions about what they are entitled to. When you have nerds then exposing your personal details like this you realise what type of cretins you are dealing with. theres only one victim in this and it ain't the intrawebs.

True but you know how it is you love by the sword you die by it, most developers should know by now to not act the hollow or come across as treating a fans like **** it's red rag to a bull (not saying it's right).

I feel for the chap but he must have something mentally wrong with him, he's now damaged goose and I doubt any dev will touch him.

Timmyctc

pablomakaveli wrote: »

She wasn't doxxed. It was discovered she faked the whole thing. She also knows one of the mods of r/gaming on reddit who's been deleting posts about the situation.

The fact that she's been lying and manipulating people as well as having the whole thing censored has made it far worse for her and has made her undeserving of sympathy.

I love all this "It was discovered" and how "It came out that " x, y and z. What is the evidence that she's being done for. A blog post by an irate ex? A tumblr account. r/gaming regularly delete posts for personal abuse. That she knew a mod is very very likely no more than some good old reddit mob mentality conspiracy. Reddit (not unlike boards) has stringent moderation in place, in certain subreddits at least, to remove any and all personal abuse.
Which they were doing. Did you read any comments prior to their deletion? Its disgusting how the gaming 'community' (I hate that word in this context but for lack of a better word I'll leave it) act. Phil Fish flips out and cant deal with the exposure and breaks down, what does the gaming community do? Back off let him regain some cool. (Sorta unlikely it would happen ill admit) But nah. Ignore him and let him fade into obscurity? Nah. Keep poking him, bait reactions then crucify him for that? Check.

With ZQ. Yeah she's not a great person. Got plenty of issues and character flaws of her own to sort out. Her personal life, and whom she sleeps with is her own business and why a subreddit of 5 million+ feels the need to slate her or her personal life choices (on top of the game jam thing [which tbh I don't fully understand so wont comment on]) is beyond me. ZQ and Phil Fish are devs. Devs cannot thrive without people buying their ****, simple as. If everyone is so ****ing aggrieved Dont buy their ****! Simple as. But the fact these ****ing reddit and 4chan 'heroes' have to ride in on their "We r le leigon m'lady" horses and ruin someone's life in every way they can is downright pathetic. Then these same people go and complain about the state of the aforementioned 'gaming community' which they are souring more than any indie devs.

As for the doxxing herself thing. I don't know. You don't know. Frankly most people don't know. All it takes for one of these facts to purport is someone to present a popular opinion to the wolves on R/Gaming and once that gets gifted gold and a few upvotes it becomes 'fact' essentially. If she did that for sympathy, shes more pathetic. Maybe she did it out of desparation, who knows. But if people want her to go away.

Don't give her money. Its that simple.

nesf

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Phil Fishs only problem is responding to the nternet which seems to be full of people that take comic book films too seriously and serious delusions about what they are entitled to. When you have nerds then exposing your personal details like this you realise what type of cretins you are dealing with. theres only one victim in this and it ain't the intrawebs.

Phil Fish's problem is that he acts in a way that is unacceptable. This isn't the first and is almost certainly not the last time he goes on one of his crusades since the last one before this resulted in him "leaving Twitter forever" and this one isn't having him selling his rights and company merely saying he's going to do this. Why do you people give him oxygen? It really doesn't matter if he made Fez, his behaviour has been completely unacceptable far too many times and he's been unapologetic about it. Just because some bunch of idiots put his personal info out for the public doesn't absolve him of any of the crap he's been saying the past few days or in the past.


Ignoring the whole Zoe Quinn cluster**** and the impossibility of working what the hell has happened with all the noise from various crusader types on both sides, I'm really finding it hard to see why people are defending Fish here. What was done to him was wrong, definitely, but the man's public commentary simply hasn't been acceptable and it's not like he hasn't been actively trying to provoke half of bloody twitter this past week. You should be condemning both Fish and whatever muppet doxxed him.

nesf

super_furry wrote: »

The evidence for that 'fake' doxxing is tenuous at best and relies on believing a sketchy anonymous tumblr post. There's no evidence that she knew any reddit mod, there's a screenshot of a twitter conversation where a twitter mod asks her to DM him, which is evidence only that the mod was taking a proactive stance to a witch hunt.

That's hard evidence that she both was or was not doxxed by someone else, depending on what you go into it wanting to believe. Really, there's **** all hard evidence out there at the moment, just Reddit's "Find the Boston Bomber" approach applied to a social media hunt. Did she cheat on the boyfriend? Probably. Was there a large amount of hate for her already waiting for a chance to rip her to pieces? Definitely. Can we trust almost anything put up on Reddit or Twitter about this? Almost certainly no, it's being written usually by people who've already decided whether she's guilty or innocent of all that she's been accused of.

Corvo

So can anyone summarise what actually happened?

pablomakaveli

Timmyctc wrote: »

With ZQ. Yeah she's not a great person. Got plenty of issues and character flaws of her own to sort out. Her personal life, and whom she sleeps with is her own business and why a subreddit of 5 million+ feels the need to slate her or her personal life choices (on top of the game jam thing [which tbh I don't fully understand so wont comment on]) is beyond me. ZQ and Phil Fish are devs. Devs cannot thrive without people buying their ****, simple as. If everyone is so ****ing aggrieved Dont buy their ****! Simple as. But the fact these ****ing reddit and 4chan 'heroes' have to ride in on their "We r le leigon m'lady" horses and ruin someone's life in every way they can is downright pathetic. Then these same people go and complain about the state of the aforementioned 'gaming community' which they are souring more than any indie devs.

Probably worth mentioning it's not all as one sided. Her supporters have been just as bad. Look at the abuse Totalbiscuit got when he wrote an article. He didn't actually criticize her, but her use of DCMA to have stuff taken down. He ended up getting a lot of **** when he hadn't really said much about her at all.

Gummy Panda

Didn't like Phil Fish in indie game and didn't like how he talked to PC gamers on steam.

ZFG

Reekwind

Status Offline wrote: »

I'm getting sick to the ****ing bone of indie devs acting like they're hard done by.it's their choice to be developers and deal with the public.If they want to have a successful career treat every customer like their your boss.If they can't manage that,then either get a job working for a bigger game company or don't deal with the public full stop.

No. This idea that being an indie developer means that you have to prostate yourself before the public and blandly accept their brickbats is nonsense. You can be a famous author, musician, film director, etc without having to live your life entirely in the public eye. Even actors, perhaps the most exposed and visual of all the creative professions, can avoid playing that game if they really want to. So telling someone 'shut up and endure our abuse' just because they want to make computer games strikes me as mad.

Yet we feel that game developers are different. Or rather, an audience comprised primarily of self-entitled internet nerds feels that it is different. Phil Fish is not your or anybody else's bitch. He owes the customers nothing other than the game they purchase. They are not his boss. When you pay for a game then you receive a copy of a game, not some enduring loyalty of the developer or a promise that they'll acknowledge your tweets.

I don't know Phil Fish or his utterances. He might well be be an absolute prick. Fine. Does that mean that he can't be hacked off when private details are shared? Does that mean that he should hold his tongue when a friend is the subject of an internet hate campaign? Again, no. However great a dickhead that this Fish character is, I have a hard time believing that he's any worse than the baying crowd who seem to believe that he should dance to their tune.

super_furry wrote:

Any person who has received rape threats, death threats and had their private life spilled across the internet because of an angry and vengeful ex-partner is deserving of sympathy to my mind.

Sometimes it's hard to believe that sentiments like this actually need to be reiterated.

Slot Machine

Reekwind wrote: »

No. This idea that being an indie developer means that you have to prostate yourself before the public and blandly accept their brickbats is nonsense. You can be a famous author, musician, film director, etc without having to live your life entirely in the public eye. Even actors, perhaps the most exposed and visual of all the creative professions, can avoid playing that game if they really want to. So telling someone 'shut up and endure our abuse' just because they want to make computer games strikes me as mad.

It's not so much telling them to shut up and take abuse as remember the reality that due to the nature of their business (small-scale, self-employed, customer-facing), public relations can make or break it. They don't have the luxury of established--and that word must be stressed--artists in other media because once you've made your money you can afford, to a certain extent, to discount public opinion.

But indie devs by their nature are at the point in their career where they need to court public opinion. They need people to pay to get them to a point where they're in a better position. In that way, game developers aren't being treated differently than any other business where small players are trying to make a name for themselves.

If anything, indie devs are different in their colossal entitlement complexes. No one owes them anything, no one has to buy their game. They are disposable, especially so if they're not producing something niche where people will willingly lap it up.

You can be as big an asshole if you want but you can't then expect people to kiss the ground you walk on. You reap what you sow, and all that.

Timmyctc

Slot Machine wrote: »

It's not so much telling them to shut up and take abuse as remember the reality that due to the nature of their business (small-scale, self-employed, customer-facing), public relations can make or break it. They don't have the luxury of established--and that word must be stressed--artists in other media because once you've made your money you can afford, to a certain extent, to discount public opinion.

But indie devs by their nature are at the point in their career where they need to court public opinion. They need people to pay to get them to a point where they're in a better position. In that way, game developers aren't being treated differently than any other business where small players are trying to make a name for themselves.

If anything, indie devs are different in their colossal entitlement complexes. No one owes them anything, no one has to buy their game. They are disposable, especially so if they're not producing something niche where people will willingly lap it up.

You can be as big an asshole if you want but you can't then expect people to kiss the ground you walk on. You reap what you sow, and all that.

This is all true. But Fish doesn't want you or anyone else buying his **** anymore. He stopped making games. So why the hate? Why constantly bemoan his actions when he doensn't want anything from anyone? Devs can be dicks and the way to counteract that is to not buy their games. Its very basic logic. Why people feel the need to be like "WELL I WONT SUPPORT HIM ANYMORE BUT ILL ALSO SPREAD HIS PERSONAL INFORMATION EVERYWHERE BCUZ I R AN INTERNET VIGILANTE *sips doritos flavoured mountain dew*" is beyond me.

The fact that its an indie dev imo is less reason for the flame brigade to get involved. Its not a big faceless company people are attacking. Its a person. There are certainly a plethora of people on R/Gaming and 4chan and probably boards who have acted like dickheads in their lives. Done things that aren't above board to get ahead in their careers. Plotted behind people's backs, cheated on people. Should we go and name and shame them?

Would it make sense if I came into a coffee shop someone worked in and started loudly calling the barista a "****ing entitled dickweasel" and handed out copies of their personal information to the public because this person acted like a dick at times, or because they cheated on an ex or because someone on tumblr and/or reddit went into intense autistic Sherlock Holmes mode and "Solved the mystery of the indie barista" and how they have connections that got them the job in the first place so they deserved the vitriol me and thousands of others were going to level at them?

Slot Machine

Timmyctc wrote: »

This is all true. But Fish doesn't want you or anyone else buying his **** anymore. He stopped making games. So why the hate?

Presumably because he keeps thrusting himself back into the public eye only to jam his foot firmly in his mouth. There's an easy fix to this: if you don't want publicity, stay out of the limelight.

Somehow I doubt that's what he wants, though.

Why constantly bemoan his actions when he doensn't want anything from anyone? Devs can be dicks and the way to counteract that is to not buy their games. Its very basic logic. Why people feel the need to be like "WELL I WONT SUPPORT HIM ANYMORE BUT ILL ALSO SPREAD HIS PERSONAL INFORMATION EVERYWHERE BCUZ I R AN INTERNET VIGILANTE *sips doritos flavoured mountain dew*

*tips fedora*
You forgot to call them neckbeard autist ****lords.

The fact that its an indie dev imo is less reason for the flame brigade to get involved. Its not a big faceless company people are attacking. Its a person.

A person courting drama. Again, if Fish wants out he just has to stop.

There are certainly a plethora of people on R/Gaming and 4chan and probably boards who have acted like dickheads in their lives. Done things that aren't above board to get ahead in their careers. Plotted behind people's backs, cheated on people. Should we go and name and shame them?

Have they put themselves into the public sphere while doing so? Is there any public interest to their exposure if not?

Sand

Status Offline wrote: »

If they don't need gamers then why don't they give their game away for free? Every other industry understands that if you piss off customers, you don't get sales.Every customer/gamer is important as they are the ones paying for the devs product.

Because they want to make a living? Not treating every single abusive customer as a prince is not incompatible with selling profitable games to the majority.

Their customers paying less and less - nothing in some cases. And demanding more and more. The cost/benefit to devs on appeasing the mouth breathing, obnoxious troll with a huge entitlement complex who rushes straight to the forum to vent after ragequiting a game is going further and further towards: "This guy costs me time, and pays me peanuts. Feck him".

I'm not a dev, but paying someone a dollar doesnt give people the right to abuse them. That is the way most online communities have gone though. If a few devs dish back out what they're receiving or decide it is simply not worth the hassle then I sympathise. You give respect, you get respect.

Basically, no, not every customer is a unique and special snowflake. Most customers are relatively quiet, keep their drivers and OS up to date, solve their own mod incompatibilities or just open up google and look for an answer. They will keep buying the games regardless of the dev telling a childish troll to swallow something sharp. Just like most people in a pub will approve of a boorish drunk being thrown out of the pub and barred.

it's not the customers fault that the game is cheap and that the developer runs the business so badly that they can barely make a living from it.

No, but the customer has to expect if you pay peanuts for a game, you are not going to get AAA after sale service. The game should do what it says on the tin, but its not necessarily the devs job to hold peoples hand in solving third party software problems. When I buy a flight with Ryanair, I expect them to get me from A to B safely - I don't expect the sort of pampering I would get if I had gone with a premier line. Its the same with games.

I'm getting sick to the ****ing bone of indie devs acting like they're hard done by.it's their choice to be developers and deal with the public.If they want to have a successful career treat every customer like their your boss.

That's an awful way to run a business. Nobody treats all customers equally. You identify your most profitable customers and you pamper them (DLC, kickstarter backers, premium content etc). You identify your loss creating customers (i.e. trolls and anti-social ragers) and you drive them out. And everyone in between you set a standard service for that still turns a profit.

If they can't manage that,then either get a job working for a bigger game company or don't deal with the public full stop.

I think that is what Phil Fish is doing? And he is still apparently getting hate for it. Most wise Devs keep their distance from their games online community bar PR/marketing opportunities. It is not worth the hassle from what I can see.

johnny_ultimate

Slot Machine wrote: »

Have they put themselves into the public sphere while doing so? Is there any public interest to their exposure if not?

I would say there's more public interest in exposing the small subset of individuals who persist with rape / death threats, systematic sexism, illegal breaches of privacy / data protection and computer attacks than there is in the case of a minor, subcultural personality who childishly insults trolls from time to time and espouses some outspoken opinions.

The Internet has a mob mentality problem, and it is one that is particularly pronounced and vulgar in the gaming sphere.

gizmo

nesf wrote: »

Ignoring the whole Zoe Quinn cluster**** and the impossibility of working what the hell has happened with all the noise from various crusader types on both sides, I'm really finding it hard to see why people are defending Fish here. What was done to him was wrong, definitely, but the man's public commentary simply hasn't been acceptable and it's not like he hasn't been actively trying to provoke half of bloody twitter this past week. You should be condemning both Fish and whatever muppet doxxed him.

It depends what you mean by "defend Fish" though. For instance, I haven't seen anyone here defend what he's said nor the abrasive manner in which he often says it, quite the contrary in fact. There have been some folk pointing out inaccuracies in the criticism against him all right but that's certainly not the same thing. Instead the general position seems to be that the sheer level of vitriol directed at him, even before the latest incident, is still completely unjustified given his previous comments.

I guess it depends on what you see as the real talking point here. To take the 2012 tweet linked earlier as an example, the core of the problem in this instance is that following a relatively innocuous tweet from Fish, some random gamer decided to cram as many insults as he could into a 140 character response. Now, if I'm going to comment on that, it's going to be this, not via a tweet which shows neither a desire for debate nor willingness to engage and instead just sets out to be as abusive as possible. What I also take from that particular encounter isn't "Phil Fish is a douche because he told some guy to suck his dick", it's "Phil Fish just got another pile of abuse for saying something I disagree with". Commenting in this manner, however, shouldn't be seen as tacit approval for what he's said or the manner in which he said it.

nesf

gizmo wrote: »

It depends what you mean by "defend Fish" though. For instance, I haven't seen anyone here defend what he's said nor the abrasive manner in which he often says it, quite the contrary in fact. There have been some folk pointing out inaccuracies in the criticism against him all right but that's certainly not the same thing. Instead the general position seems to be that the sheer level of vitriol directed at him, even before the latest incident, is still completely unjustified given his previous comments.

I guess it depends on what you see as the real talking point here. To take the 2012 tweet linked earlier as an example, the core of the problem in this instance is that following a relatively innocuous tweet from Fish, some random gamer decided to cram as many insults as he could into a 140 character response. Now, if I'm going to comment on that, it's going to be this, not via a tweet which shows neither a desire for debate nor willingness to engage and instead just sets out to be as abusive as possible. What I also take from that particular encounter isn't "Phil Fish is a douche because he told some guy to suck his dick", it's "Phil Fish just got another pile of abuse for saying something I disagree with". Commenting in this manner, however, shouldn't be seen as tacit approval for what he's said or the manner in which he said it.

I wasn't really thinking of discussion on this site as I've been seeing it everywhere the past while (i.e. Reddit etc). I see people coming to Fish's aid not because he's receiving a completely disproportionate level of abuse (he was) but simply because he was supporting Zoe Quinn and the same herd mentality that was earning him that level of abuse was fueling the same blind support of him.

I'm very much sick of reading about the whole thing at this stage. Another internet social media cluster**** over something that should concern almost no one commenting on it. Bleh.

Nody

super_furry wrote: »

He was hacked and had his private information just because he defended his friend against a pretty nasty harassment campaign. This is a man who has made one of the best platformers of the last decade and whatever you think of his twitter persona, it's really ****ty that he's been forced to take such a drastic step.

You know I spent this morning thinking about it and the thing is it's not his twitter persona that's ****ty; it's Phil himself. Phil is simply a bully who's not realized he's not as big as he thinks he is and constantly goes after other people with the belief that because he made Fez his opinion is more important than everyone else. He goes after everyone and anyone for any reason and when they respond to his inane BS he throws a hissy fit and runs away because as any other bully he can't actually handle a real conflict and try to gain sympathy with various threats (I'll never make Fez 2! I'm going to shut down my twitter account! I'm going to sell my company!). All of it simple tricks for him to get people to smooth his ego and tell him he is really the biggest baddest bully around here and he should not listen to those telling him differently.

Now people will say "oh but he has depressed" or "oh but he's being harassed" but the thing is depression is not an excuse or even an explanation; I know plenty of people diagnosed with depression (inc. my SO who's been diagnosed with it for over 20 years) and they don't act like bullies in everyday life nor on the internet yet Phil does. As for being harassed that comes with putting yourself out there by bullying others and then not being able to handle the heat you generated yourself; exactly like a bully he can only give but he can't take anything himself...







And my all time favorite; but it's ok if I do it to others, right?!


It's not only on twitter either; in every interaction shown with him from the movie, to twitter, to interviews etc. he consistently comes over as a bully. It's not his internet persona, it's him. It's also why I'll never buy Fez and I'll never play Fez even if I got it for free.

Retr0gamer

I don't really see what is so wrong with those posts if the OP is being a complete twat to begin with. If you are going to be a judgemental twat to people you don't know what do you expect back? It might not be the best or most mature reaction but it's hardly unprovoked.