Kneeling Position help

Wadi14

Guys any tips on finding a good kneeling position, target shooting but with a varmint .22 sporting rifle with scope, and using a target sling. shooting at club on Sunday my first time involved in kneeling comp, was out today and find lateral hold on the bull a big problem.

Cass

I don't do target shooting from a sitting/kneeling position but have shot game. While not directly related, and i stand to be corrected, one thing i did find was this.

Don't try and hold it dead on the bull. It cannot be done. By this i mean you will not be able to hold 100% stead on the bullseye. There is going to be some movement. Whether it's via your position, breathing, cramping, etc you cannot hold dead steady. So what i try to do is steady myself as much as possible. I then control my breathing, but not to the point i restrict it. I then settle into a pattern (much like i do when firing the pistol) whereby the sights/crosshair will circle/cross the bull. After a few seconds i pick my moment and fire.

I relate this to the pistol shooting i used to do. Again not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but i used to try and hold the gun dead on the target, and try to stop it moving at all. This caused shaking, and misses. I then relaxed by grip slightly, let the gun move in a figure 8 (on it's side) pattern and when i was comfortable enough and the sights coming across the bull i fired.

For rifle shooting i usually sit with one leg under my arse, the other bent, but upright, and used as a support for left arm.



Alternatively, and if it's allowed, sit on your ass with both legs folded under you (like a Monk meditating) and prop the right the elbow on the right leg (inside thigh, just above knee), and left elbow on left leg.



If using a sling i wrapped it once around my arm and put slight tension on it to aid in steadying it. See the same in both pictures above.


Lads that shoot this style competitively will be better able to answer, but that's my tuppence worth.

Wadi14

thanks Cass,
there's more dry firing tomorrow me thinks lol. and see if I can get a solid position and hold

IRLConor

Here's a neat setup video explaining some of the things you might want to look at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKpCgugbLn0

I've only played around with shooting kneeling, I don't shoot it competitively, so I can't really give any detailed advice other than to use a kneeling roll and make sure your sling is doing plenty of work holding the rifle up.

Wadi14

Thanks, I had watched this vid on youtube, its prob the best there, heading out now for more dry firing, def need to work on the position, maybe something will click.

IRLConor

Wadi14 wrote: »

Thanks, I had watched this vid on youtube, its prob the best there, heading out now for more dry firing, def need to work on the position, maybe something will click.

The next steps are to either get a good book (Way's of the Rifle is good) or talk to someone in person who knows how to shoot kneeling well. I can think of maybe five people in the country who understand kneeling well enough to be helpful but it might be tricky to get a hold of any of them. Some of the NI folks might be better located for you, but I don't know of any of them shooting 3 positions at the moment.

everypenny

Make sure that you contact the bone of your elbow to the muscle of the leg, not the knee.

I prefer to use my breathing to create a vertical movement of the rifle and when I'm going to shoot I slow my release of breath and fire as it passes the target.

Breathing is key, and don't try and force the shot.

Wadi14

thanks guys, well guys shooting today prone and kneeling blustery day as usual up here in Donegal lol, I managed a 3rd and have myself a box of CCI to practice with, they will come in handy cus my kneeling was brutal, I will def need to practice that all over the place.

IRLConor

Wadi14 wrote: »

I managed a 3rd

Good job!

Enjoy the practice.

It wasn't me!

The biggest initial obstacle to kneeling is being able to sit in the position with comfort and stability. Comfort does not mean hot chocolate, good book and a warm fire comfort, but the absence of distracting pain is enough. Then you sit down solid, no leaning up off the ankle or shifting your weight. Take a short step forward with your left foot, facing maybe thirty degrees from the target, and then just fold down, keep your hips square to where your legs are pointed as your knees bend, make sure your arse comes down on your heel without twisting either the leg or the back and sit square on it.

If your discipline lets you use a kneeling roll, then adjust it between the foot and the knee so the weight is firmly on your heel. If you can imagine weight distribution between your front foot, your back foot (on the theoretical kneeling roll) and your right knee on the ground, then it should be about 40-40-20 front-back-knee, and if anything, less on the knee is better. If you can't use a kneeling roll or anything under your ankle for support, then make sure the sole of your boot stays stiff and takes the weight.

For your front elbow, either in front or behind or on the point of the knee is mostly a function of where it falls most naturally. Try not to stretch out much or pull it back or you're just unbalancing the top half of the position by moving it away from where it sits comfortably over the base. For me, my elbow is behind the kneecap, but almost feels like it's pushing down into the back of it. That's just where it falls naturally.

When you're holding the rifle, you should be fairly vertical, with your weight mostly towards the left, over a line between your front and back foot. The closer the rifle is to this line, the better your recoil will be and the easier it will be to group consistently. Even without a sling, if your elbow is neatly relaxed on your leg and your position is well balanced and arranged over a stable base, you'll be able to hold very steady. At this juncture, breathe through your nose and slowly, keeping your chest and shoulders relaxed, and watch for regular slow movements in the rifle. Shoot in time with the pattern the rifle follows.

If you can use a sling, it should be firm, but not so firm that it pulls your left shoulder around. You don't want to rotate in the torso. You should have your hips pointing the same way as your feet, and your shoulders over your hips. Then you just fold into the base, breathe easily and the rifle will hold still enough and move steadily enough that you can get in a good routine. Above all, keep relaxed in the chest, arms and shoulders and your shots will be fairly predictable at least.

Wadi14

Thanks for that It wasn't me,
I will def use your information to build a kneeling position, reading what you say I think I may have been trying too hard to keep the rifle steady, and not relaxing into a good position and releasing the shot when on the bull.

Sparks

And for the love of your joints, if you buy a kneeling roll, get a tupperware box and empty half the stuffing from the new roll into it and then seal it up and put it away. You may need that stuffing for adjustments later, but new rolls always come fully stuffed and they're sooooo not meant to be used that way.

Oh, and all those pictures of the kneeling position tend to show your forward-pointing leg and your bent-up-under-your-arse leg as having a set angle between them. Nuts to that notion. If your left foot is forward, you want your right knee to be at whatever angle it takes to get your combined (rifle+you) center of gravity under the rifle (and it's usually a bit forward from your butt, but it's the under the line of the rifle's barrel bit that's important for recoil control). I seem to remember having a pretty awful angle myself (something like 110-120 degrees), but I was a bit odd so I don't recommend doing that unless you had to.

I couldn't find any images of Barry Dagger shooting kneeling, but if you do, study them carefully - he was the best kneeling rifle shot in the world when he was competing (he was also not very tall, so you might not be able to do what he did, but you take what you can and do the best you can with it).

Oh, and the rifle can still be low, so long as you can build up the sights enough. This can lead to unusual positions in some cases, mind.



I wouldn't use Debevec as a guide mind you, not without thirty years of practice He's a great example of extremes; not so great an example of the mainstream. Really, if you want to study this position, The ways of the rifle is the book to get.

It wasn't me!

Debevec isn't an example I'd use. There's a lot going on there that makes perfect sense when you know what he's doing, but would be impossible to approach using any of the basics of the position. Here are a couple of better, more conventional examples of those currently shooting big kneeling scores.

Valerian Sauveplane of France




Ole Krystian Bryhn of Norway



Nazar Louginetz of Russia



Niccolo Campriani of Italy




Daniel Brodmeier of Germany




What you'll see here is that their positions differ significantly in the angle between the two legs, the angle relative to the target, the height of the gun relative to their shoulders and so on. What they have in common is that the weight of the position is firmly along the line between their feet, so that the gun is kept in tight and their head rests on the stock without leaning out or turning at all. These guys are all consistent 390+ kneeling shooters and most are consistently hitting 393+ in ISSF competition. That's 33/40 hits on a 10.4mm ten ring at 50m, with aperture sights. If you can keep a relaxed position that balances on that line, the gun will hardly move at all and steady shooting gets easy.

Wadi14

thanks for the pics guy, correct me if Im wrong but in some of the pics are they pointing their left leg towards the target area, I,m I right in thinking of a right foot left foot target line

IRLConor

Wadi14 wrote: »

thanks for the pics guy, correct me if Im wrong but in some of the pics are they pointing their left leg towards the target area, I,m I right in thinking of a right foot left foot target line

I don't think there's anyone who shoots with their left leg pointed perfectly straight at the target. For most right handed shooters, the left leg is somewhere between 12 o'clock and 1 o'clock and the right leg is between 2 o'clock and 3 o'clock. There's always a few oddballs with unusual positions, but most fall into that pattern.

Even when the left leg is quite straight on to the target, almost at 12 o'clock, the foot is sometimes turned in a little to dampen the sway a bit more. See Louginets above, his left leg is pretty straight on but he has his left toe pointed to the right. In contrast to that Brodmeier's knee is pointed more to the right so his boot is more in line with the rest of his leg.

One exercise that's useful for both kneeling and prone is to set yourself up pointing at a mirror. It's a great way of spotting if you've got the weight of the rifle all over to one side. It's less of an issue in prone, but it's still a worthwhile exercise to reduce the amount of side-to-side sway and give yourself a cleaner recoil pattern. It makes experimenting with position changes a bit easier too.

I know it's a bit of a trek from Donegal to Offaly, but if it suits you at any stage to make a trip to Midlands be sure to let me know. There's a few of us shooting prone there and one or two shooting 3P occasionally so there could be an opportunity to share some info. I'm always happy to get a 2nd, 3rd, 4th... opinion on my position.

Wadi14

Thanks for the invite IRL, I see where the mirror will work , I know just the place lol

It wasn't me!

Just another tip if you're using a mirror, hang a plumb line down the front of it and line yourself up so that your barrel, the arch of your front foot and your back ankle are all on the line when you're sitting comfortably. You should feel like you're behind it almost, breathing easily from the stomach.

Exactly what discipline are you shooting? Are you using a sling or kneeling roll?

Wadi14

we are using varmint / sporting rifles with scopes and yes I use jacket, sling and we can use a roll 50m

It wasn't me!

Okay, great, well you'll be able to use all of this material then. The roll should support your foot without having it overstretched, but if it's too full, you'll be too high to get all the support from your leg you should be able to, unless your knee to foot measurement is unusually long. You kinda sit behind your front knee, rest on it and shoot off like an unsteady prone position, while keeping your balance back nice and tight to that line. Sauveplane is a brilliant example if you look at the way he just tucks down, rests on the knee and shoots off it like you'd rest on a fencepost.

A few of the really key points here:
1. The left leg should be entirely relaxed. If you're trying to control where the system points by flexing the muscles in your leg, particularly the thigh, you're going to have wild fliers regularly.
2. Your weight should be back from the gun, which balances on a line between your kneeling roll and your front foot, and you should be sitting firmly on your heel, relaxed and easy.
3. There should be no tension in your stomach muscles. You should be breathing low from your abdomen and able to watch the hold move in a smooth pattern, no erratic movements.
4. Your triggering needs to be better than prone. You're hanging up there with the tension of the sling holding one side firm and the other dangling like in standing, so you're really susceptible to disturbing the gun during the release. At the same time however, it needs to go off fast, so practise a really smooth release that doesn't take a lot of time once you arrive on target. Tensions creep in too quickly in kneeling to hang about long. Incidentally, this will definitely improve your prone as a side effect.

Once you have that down, you'll be hammering in good groups consistently, without fliers. Accept the movement you do see and focus on squeezing off the shot steadily. Your groups will trend towards the middle of your hold in any case.

Sparks

You might also find it helpful to rotate your hips forwards - not so much to lean you forwards, but to stop you arching your back and kindof slumping down over the rifle. That tends to mess up your position in a subtle, pain-in-the-fundament sort of way, but if you keep the back straight, it seems to settle more. (It's a bit hard to explain in text, and you'll more feel it internally than see it externally, but it stops you rolling off to the back left and kindof pops the position a bit so if feels more readable -- that's a terrible description but I can't really put it in words. Just give it a try, even now without the rifle, you'll see what I mean. Just imagine an axis running through your hips from left side to right side, and rotate your pelvis forward ten or twenty degrees around that axis).

edit: actually, this diagram might help. Fig 5 is what you don't want, but which always seemed to just happen to me in kneeling; Fig 6 is what you do want (for the hip rotation and effect on the spine, not the sitting part):

Wadi14

thanks again guys for the help, Im going to put all ur tips together on a page and work from there, I think I know what ur trying to explain about pushing the hips forward Sparks, and something you said It wasn,t me , that caught my eye-breath from the stomach , that's something I must start doing, rather than sucking large amounts into the lungs and really expanding the ribcage with lots of movement .