Yet another 'wrong way' motorway accident

djimi

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

This all comes down to driver education. We're not educated or even tested on a Motorway, and until that happens we will continue to have accidents like this.

This incident had nothing to do with driver education. If someone needs to be told why its dangerous to drive the wrong way down a motorway then are far too stupid to belong behind the wheel of a car in the first place.

Far too much is made of the lack of motorway education sometimes. They are the easiest roads in the country to drive on, and the same principles of "drive left, overtake right" apply to them the same as they do on every other road in the country. Its down to pure stupidity that people cannot drive motorways; Im not sure how much education would ever change that.

dantastic

Jesus. wrote: »

I don't want to get into another argument but it serves you right. The Guards have enough to be doing without being inundated by busybodies with nothing better to do. I'm not surprised they got angry with you.

I'm not sure if you are trolling or what is going on. You have some seriously screwed up priorities.

This tread is not the place for it so I didn't expand on why I phoned the guards on these occasions but in every case the driver was driving dangerously.

After we had phoned the last one actually proceeded to be involved in an accident - followed by a run from the accident. As we had already reported the driver and we knew the guards were waiting for him in the next time we staid with the poor girl having been hit. She was unhurt but in a lot of shock.

The guards phoned back saying it was just an elderly driver and the wipers weren't working. This was in a very small place in the depths of county Cork.........

dr.fuzzenstein

djimi wrote: »

This incident had nothing to do with driver education. If someone needs to be told why its dangerous to drive the wrong way down a motorway then are far too stupid to belong behind the wheel of a car in the first place.

Far too much is made of the lack of motorway education sometimes. They are the easiest roads in the country to drive on, and the same principles of "drive left, overtake right" apply to them the same as they do on every other road in the country. Its down to pure stupidity that people cannot drive motorways; Im not sure how much education would ever change that.

So, what other roads should we exclude from driver training?
Is it a good enough argument to say "Ah that's easy, let's not bother"
Traffic lights are very simple. maybe we shouldn't tell people about them?
Reversing, you'll figure it out, to save time, it's not on the test.
Maybe a few simple and easy rules should be left out of the theory test as well.
In fact, why bother have driver training and a test in the first place.

No. Driver training should encompass every situation, town driving, backroads, motorways, night driving, etc..
In fact there should be skid training as well, to teach people how to handle a car at and over the limit (of handling, not drink, of course;))
It may seem easy to you now, but I was very glad to have done it.
So here's how "easy" it is to drive on the motorway.
On the on ramp, watch out for traffic approaching fast, get up to speed and if clear merge.
Not easy when you get the "I'm not letting you merge" brigade or if there's heavy traffic, you have to judge the size of the slot and if that bastard might speed up to close the gap, so you won't make it in ahead of him, he would never live it down.
Be careful how you judge the speed of traffic and will they move over or won't they? If you are used to pottering about at 60 km/h on your driving lessons, this is trickier than it looks.
Cruise along at an appropriate speed within the limit and again, you have to look out for other traffic going significantly faster or slower.
Relative speed differences are the biggest challenge. That truck or '89 Fiesta driven at 60 km/h by Mr Magoo is coming up very fast ahead of you. Pick the right moment to pull out, but scan vehicles behind you approaching at Mach 3, pull out on Repman in his Avensis doing 180 km/h and you're toast. Again, very tricky if all you've done so far is reverse park in the Dunnes car park.
Don't drive up to vehicles in front of you, brake and the crane your neck to see if there's traffic. I see so many people do that, they overtake on a motorway the way they would on a normal road.
Don't use your brakes on the motorway, keep with the flow. it takes a while to figre that out. if you're using your brakes, either you're doing it wrong or someone has pulled out in front of you. Which is the next point. Watch Mrs Muggins in her Micra, as you approach that truck going 120 km/h and you are just to fly past it, she will pull out 2 meters ahead of you.
In that case it is vital to apply just the right amount of brake. If you panic and jam on as well as swerve, 25 car pileup. The only one who will escape all of this without a scratch is Msr Muggins. She's never been in an accident, but has seen plenty in her rear view mirror.

My first motorway journey was intimidating and I was glad it was with a proper, licensed instructor in a dual control car. I was not going fast enough for him, so he floored it on his side till we did 160 km/h.
It's easy if you've been doing it for years, but for a first timer, it's harder than it looks.
So less of that "Let's not teach motorway driving" bullsh*t.
It's what I call "Irish Logic", if we build a massive stadium, let's not provide parking, Problem Solved!
Teenage Pregancy doesn't exist, therefore we don't need abortions, let's export the problem to the UK, Problem Solved!
We don't need nuclear power, let's buy it from England, Problem Solved!
Half the shops have closed down, rate take is down, let's hike rates, Problem Solved!
Living in Ireland really feels like being in a Southpark episode sometimes.

visual

There is only two reasons I can think of that someone drives the wrong dirrection on motorway.

1. Deliberately
2. Error of judgement

A no entry sign at the top of slip that is often on aroundabout isn't the most effective way to ensure a mistake can not be made.

djimi

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So, what other roads should we exclude from driver training?
Is it a good enough argument to say "Ah that's easy, let's not bother"

At no point did I say "lets not bother". I said far too much is made of lack of motorway education. The poster that I quoted was suggesting that it was the reason why this incident occured. In other threads people use it as a reason why undertaking and lane hogging are so prevalent.

Put simply, its not.

Im not saying that it would be a bad thing to educate learners on how to use motorways, and Im not saying that it is not something that should be brought into driver education. What I am saying is that it is not the reason why some people are such dangerous morons on our roads, and for the majority of these people no amount of education is going to change this. Motorway driving is as easy as it gets; an ounce of common sense would mean any driver can follow the simple principle of "drive left, overtake right" and have no issues whatsoever.

As for people driving down the wrong side of a motorway; that is a whole other level of mental deficiency that quite frankly has absolutely nothing to do with education or motoring in general.

dantastic

dantastic wrote: »

I passed the scene that evening after the southbound was reopened. The distance she traveled would not suggest just a temporary lapse of concentration or anything.

This is all of our fault. From family members not stopping unfit drivers, doctors signing off and guards just being interested in speeding. I have myself phoned the guards on 3 occasions thinking the driver was drunk off their game when it was infact an elderly driver. The guards were quick to respond to a possible drunk driver but I got some serious attitude over the phone after they had stopped the cars and phoned me back.

So yea, I cannot see how a custodial sentence for the driver can be avoided. If she does escape without I will have lost my last bit of faith in the legal system.

Seriously?? What did they say
Surely if someone is swerving all over the road and braking randomly (that what happened?) it's dangerous no matter why

SpaceTime

The reason there's no motorway training is that until very recently they're were relatively few motorways.

You'd still have a situation where in parts of Ireland you'd have to drive very considerable distances to find a motorway. It's easy in Belgium or the Netherlands where there's very high density.

The most logical thing in Ireland would be to put it into the driver theory test at the very least.

visual

SpaceTime wrote: »

The reason there's no motorway training is that until very recently they're were relatively few motorways.

You'd still have a situation where in parts of Ireland you'd have to drive very considerable distances to find a motorway. It's easy in Belgium or the Netherlands where there's very high density.

The most logical thing in Ireland would be to put it into the driver theory test at the very least.

If your able to drive on dual carriageway correctly your more than capable of driving on motorway

Jesus.

bluewolf wrote: »

Seriously?? What did they say
Surely if someone is swerving all over the road and braking randomly (that what happened?) it's dangerous no matter why

Makes you wonder if he saw what he thought he saw at all, doesn't it?

Alun

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

This all comes down to driver education. We're not educated or even tested on a Motorway, and until that happens we will continue to have accidents like this.

And yet they have hundreds of such incidents every year in Germany, where they do teach motorway driving, and have had motorways long before Ireland.

H3llR4iser

SpaceTime wrote: »

Wrong Way incidents sadly happen everywhere. Even in Germany you'll occasionally get someone doing it.

I encountered someone reversing on the hard shoulder on the Brussels Ring a few months ago!

The best you can do is have very, very clear and consistent markings on junctions that make it as visually obvious as possible. Physical barriers on the road surface probably wouldn't last long in traffic tbh. They're used in some carparks but the weight and volume of traffic would be much lighter.

Red permanently on traffic lights facing the opposite way on off ramps might be an idea too.

Actually, this might be a good idea; As absurd as it might sound, people can miss signs and warnings - especially at night. The red light would send a very clear message.

Wouldn't stop the people doing it deliberately (!) or those that are so much off their game they'd even ignore the lights (such as those who end up driving the wrong way for KMs and KMs before realizing something is wrong).

SpaceTime

I think the other aspect of it is that people are so used to stopping at red traffic lights. When you see one you automatically stop.

So even if you're a bit thick or suffering from temporary brain issues you might recognise it.

I think people can miss unique / new signs they're unfamiliar with.

All you'd need is a set of standard city traffic lights without any controller just permanently showing red.
With modern LED lights that's actually almost maintenance free and cheap to run too.

The key would be to make them look exactly like normal lights.

wotswattage

The reality is that this will tragically happen again as some drivers simply can't/won't ever be educated, so any measure that can prevent even one accident will be welcome. I can see the red lights being effective but you'd still be relying on other drivers to intervene/raise the alarm before the wrong way driver loses patience and runs the red light.

ofcork

What about barriers which only open for traffic coming the right way?

djimi

ofcork wrote: »

What about barriers which only open for traffic coming the right way?

They could cause big problems on a busy road.

macplaxton

visual wrote: »

There is only two reasons I can think of that someone drives the wrong dirrection on motorway.

1. Deliberately
2. Error of judgement

3. No judgement at all.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2729914/Dementia-sufferer-driving-car-wrong-direction-motorway-smashed-halt-police-deliberate-head-crash-prevent-disaster.html

Blazer

macplaxton wrote: »

3. No judgement at all.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2729914/Dementia-sufferer-driving-car-wrong-direction-motorway-smashed-halt-police-deliberate-head-crash-prevent-disaster.html

That was caused by dementia which can cause vision problems. Completed unrelated to what happened in Ireland.
For a few months the old fella was getting extreme headaches and problems with his vision and was so convinced that other cars were driving on the wrong side of the road..he knew that they weren't and that his eyes were playing tricks on his brain and had the cop in to pull his car off the side of the road as he knew he wasn't safe to drive. Luckily it was all stress related and no problems for the past few years.

JC01

Jesus. wrote: »

Doc, the truth is, most of the people banging on about other drivers are nearly always just as bad themselves - if not worse. I've seen it before, people F-ing and blinding about other drivers and how they shouldn't be on the road when they're bloody brutal themselves.

An example would be when the guy put up dash cam footage on here a couple of months back. He was on the M50 and a Punto cut him off and then brake-tested him or something and he was 100% convinced that he did nothing wrong and the other guy was a lunatic. Everyone immediately pointed out to him how he was initially at fault and was driving like a headcase himself and the thread went on for pages. He couldn't be told. He kept insisting he'd done nothing wrong. There was just no getting through to him.

And there's the problem. Once people get behind the wheel of a car, they think they're flawless and can't accept that they're not perfect drivers themselves. In many cases the high horse crowd are probably worse than anyone. There's a lot of bullsh*t on this Board from people who seem to be always in the right and everyone else are dangerous maniacs and should be taken off the roads. If you were to put a secret dashcam in their cars though you'd soon find out the truth.

And it wouldn't be pleasant viewing

All true and generally I would despise anyone for reporting things on the road, it smacks of sneaky self righteous tosspottery, yes that's a new word, BUT for gods sake she went the wrong way down a slip road!! Even I would report that and trust me when I say that's says a lot.

macplaxton

Blazer wrote: »

That was caused by dementia which can cause vision problems. Completed unrelated to what happened in Ireland.

It's still someone driving the wrong way along a motorway.

SpaceTime

Honestly, I think if you're not able to figure out that you're going the wrong way on a motorway, you really do need to have your licence taken off you for your own and everyone else's safety.

I'd actually suggest it's one of those offences that needs a medical, optical and occupational therapy assessment to ensure that you're actually capable of operating a vehicle at all.

You could be suffering from some kind of an illness that's causing you to momentarily lose the ability to think straight - undiagnosed diabetes, certain types of epilepsy, cardiovascular problems where blood flow's restricted to brain at times, transient ischemic attacks (mini stroke / temp blockage of a vessel in your brain), undiagnosed / uncorrected vision issues, the onset of a whole range of degenerative illnesses that could impact upon your cognitive skills or visual systems. There's an awful lot of things that can go wrong with people without them actually knowing.

It's not as clear and dry as "oh he/she's a bit thick". If you were driving safely for decades and then suddenly do something like this, there's quite likely to be some kind of an underlying problem.

If you did it deliberately, you deserve a driving ban as you clearly don't have enough common sense to be let behind the wheel of a vehicle.