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John Bruton

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    Sully wrote: »
    Can't beat a bit of luck running a government for three years and not having any responsibility at all for how things went!

    Job bridge etc. are taken into consideration in some figures, not the overall unemployment figures. There is only 5,000 of them at any one time; they are also included on the unemployed register and there would be no income tax revenue from them.

    So lets put aside those figures for a moment and assume the unemployed register is false. But tax intake is considerably higher than this time last year. As is VAT, which is based on consumer spending. Income Tax is up too. Figures are climbing up, employment figures are climbing up, unemployment figures are dropping.
    Ya but we still haven't properly audited the bank balance sheets, and there's a lot of bad debt still left to unravel, and a new property bubble, and still (possibly unsustainably) huge public debt - plus a likely financial crisis on the way again.

    I don't understand why people see us as recovering, given all of that - growth figures don't necessarily indicate we are recovering, they can be just as illusory as the growth figures were during the boom.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 Infinity Box


    He said the era of state pensions and universal health care is going to end. He's right. It will. It might not be what people want to hear, but it's refreshing to have someone say it.

    That's a matter of policy, not inevitability. Structural changes toward austerity economics and privatization is part and parcel of neo-liberal ideology. It's an important distinction to make.
    All the same it's the truth about the the world at the moment, unfortunately. This doesn't just happen out of the blue obviously, but if you start talking about planning and policy makers you get the two heads treatment. Stuff that's all carried out away from the public eye, trade agreements, lobbying, the odious IMF and world bank - created at the same summit that saw other currencies pegged to the dollar (kind of a big deal).

    There's a small cloister of events that govern a lot of things about the world, it's not some sprawling random mess. I'm only impressed that people can look at the money and power involved in various areas and still believe the world to be some pure and transparent place, that people wouldn't connive. Even the most moderate amount of authority turns people into assholes, think of managers you've had.. multiply that by a thousand with the added bonus of being basically above the law and that's the kind of people that are behind a lot of lobbying.. (end randomish post).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    EazyD wrote: »
    Would be even more refreshing if the man himself wasn't receiving an 140k pension.


    Ye have to insert 'little people' when hes talking about things generally. 'Can't afford to pay little peoples pensions'.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    FG are following orders. You could paint faces on turnips and replace most of FG with them and they'd do a similar job and have similar personalities.

    Well Sinn Fein argue differently. They claim, if in government, things would be radically different and the country would be much better off. People swing this while EU/IMF agreement around to suit their own needs. Some argue that the agreement is a foundation as to which the parties need to decide how they go about the recovery, as long as targets are met. Some argue that the agreement explicitly states what needs to be done and there is no scope. Some like to remind us that Fianna Fail negotiated this and are now sitting back in opposition shouting it down.
    They were the one party who had no part in the crash and its aftermath yet everything would be exponentially worse had they been driving the car or arriving in the ambulance?

    Your bias is very plain to see.

    Nobody in opposition during the 'boom' had anything to do with the crash. This isn't the only 'boom & bust' the country have been through, with Fianna Fail creating the crash and a FG & Lab government rebuilding the economy for Fianna Fail to take back over again.
    KahBoom wrote: »
    I've not been a fan of SF in the past, especially because of all their baggage of troubles-era politicians, where I can't avoid having doubts about many reputations in the party - but they're looking like the only alternative left, and may be the only party that may be open to real economic alternatives at this point.

    It's still hard to judge though - there's a lot of FUD surrounding SF, and I'm not sure how to view them.

    Well some in this thread are telling us that the policies that are being implemented at the moment are making a difference. A lot of the figures confirm this, but the vast majority agree we have a long way to go yet.

    If we had Sinn Fein, they claim policy would be vastly different. We would have told the EU/IMF to go swing it, defaulted on our debt, stuck the fingers up to the banks and bankers, bailed out the people through the pension fund, all without increasing taxes or cutting (apart from cutting the big pay cheques floating around the public / civil service, because the public hate that). Garth Brooks would have played and the planning decision made by Dublin City Council would have been overruled, because Sinn Fein like to pick and choose when and where to interfere in planning (vote buying, basically).

    How, I hear you asking, can this be done? Well, that's the big question. But the fanboys will have you know that they have a very comprehensive policy document and the raiding of the pension fund with a wealth tax would be a big plus one for the saviour of our economy. They may link you to the policy document but they won't link you to the numerous reports that rubbish their policy document, or the interviews with Gerry Adams where questions are put to him and he dodges the bullets because he can't actually say honestly how it would work. Nor will they tell you about the much much higher property & water charges in the North of Ireland, where the party is in government. Nor will they link you to the various austerity measures they implemented in this very small economy. They might tell you, in rebuttal, that it's all the UKs fault that they force them into these decisions and Sinn Fein have no choice. But sure, down South it's a similar situation - we are told what to do by the EU/IMF but Sinn Fein are demanding the government tell them where to go? They probably wont tell you about the time they linked, in a publicity campaign about Europe, to an economists report that they claimed favoured what they have been saying all along but for it to turnout the economist wasn't actually agreeing with Sinn Fein at all. Big egg on face moment there! On the subject of Europe, it's an odd one that a party that has voted against every single treaty would then run for the European Parliament knowing it's not going to have any real impact on how things are done by Europe that may impact Ireland! But it's not like Sinn Fein have any previous for expenses scandals - North or South. Says a lot about what they would really do in government, and what they would say in opposition. :)

    Now lets not get ahead of ourselves here. The media are against Sinn Fein as are the people online. There all just trolls for the government parties. The main thing is not to believe these trolls and to vote Sinn Fein because they are ready, willing and able to lead Ireland, hand in hand, to a fairer and more honest recovery. For the people, not the politicians or the bankers. But take a look at what Sinn Fein are REALLY saying, when some of their senior members have publicly came out and said there not ready for government.
    KahBoom wrote: »
    Ya but we still haven't properly audited the bank balance sheets, and there's a lot of bad debt still left to unravel, and a new property bubble, and still (possibly unsustainably) huge public debt - plus a likely financial crisis on the way again.

    I don't understand why people see us as recovering, given all of that - growth figures don't necessarily indicate we are recovering, they can be just as illusory as the growth figures were during the boom.

    At the end of the day, we are in recovery mode regardless of who gets credit. But the fact remains, we have little choice but to rotate between FF, FG & Labour. Maybe a bit of the Greens and Independent for a bit of balance. The rest are way off the ball when it comes to policy and running countries. The country is crying out for an alternative but not a radical alternative yet nobody is willing, not even the rebels in opposition as Independents and ex-party members, to stand up and be accounted for on a large scale.

    That alone, says a lot about Irish politics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 329 ✭✭ThinkAboutIt


    It IS the bankers fault I bought that over priced house and maxed out my credits cards. OK.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25 spook_house


    He said the era of state pensions and universal health care is going to end. He's right. It will. It might not be what people want to hear, but it's refreshing to have someone say it.


    Disagree with.him on 1916 etc but he's correct about. the unsustainable welfare state in Europe , the west has no.inherent right to prosperity , India and china will compete for growth in future


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭Tail Docker


    Financiers have simple tools at their disposal; Boom - offer lots of cheap credit that is easily got, heat the market up to boiling point with people taking on huge debts and buying up businesses and property...then yank the chain and smother the supply of money, causing massive market contraction.

    Bang - people can't repay their debts and vulture capitalists swoop in and buy up all the distressed assets at pennies on the pound. The vulture capitalist are just a separate wing of the same financiers.

    Boom - quietly restart the supply of money and watch the assets climb back in value, thereby making a massive killing and becoming even richer, again.

    Rinse and repeat. It is simple, quite sneaky and massively profitable. And as we in Ireland have seen, when the public can't meet their debts to the Bankers, the State steps in and foots the bill, using the publics money, so the whole scheme is cast iron guaranteed a winner. Lovely stuff, if you can get it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Buona Fortuna


    He said the era of state pensions and universal health care is going to end. He's right. It will. It might not be what people want to hear, but it's refreshing to have someone say it.

    When did we get universal health care?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭Tail Docker


    When did we get universal health care?

    It was available one wednesday back in 2008, they forgot to mention it. Still makes the claim legit..


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25 spook_house


    When did we get universal health care?

    He was referring to Europe as a whole

    The state pension in thirty years time will be a fraction of what it is today , we are living today in Ireland in what is a golden age for seniors , a time will arrive when the well runs dry and the grey vote can no longer be bought


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,021 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    It worked out mostly OK for the "little people". They got their savings guaranteed up to €100K. If the banks had been wiped out like some people wanted their savings would have been wiped out too. Some little people with bank shares did lose out but shares can go up and down. Unemployment is at the long term average now, it was only during the Celtic Tiger that unemployment reached historic lows. But that came at a longer term cost and repeating the experiment would be a bad idea.

    Also the little people who stopped paying their mortgage got to keep their houses. In the North and in other countries which experienced the international downturn reposessions are multiples higher than in Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Buona Fortuna


    He was referring to Europe as a whole

    The state pension in thirty years time will be a fraction of what it is today , we are living today in Ireland in what is a golden age for seniors , a time will arrive when the well runs dry and the grey vote can no longer be bought

    You mean the day after I get there and all the senior goodies pffft.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25 spook_house


    You mean the day after I get there and all the senior goodies pffft.


    ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,477 ✭✭✭Hootanany


    Sully wrote: »
    Well Sinn Fein argue differently. They claim, if in government, things would be radically different and the country would be much better off. People swing this while EU/IMF agreement around to suit their own needs. Some argue that the agreement is a foundation as to which the parties need to decide how they go about the recovery, as long as targets are met. Some argue that the agreement explicitly states what needs to be done and there is no scope. Some like to remind us that Fianna Fail negotiated this and are now sitting back in opposition shouting it down.



    Nobody in opposition during the 'boom' had anything to do with the crash. This isn't the only 'boom & bust' the country have been through, with Fianna Fail creating the crash and a FG & Lab government rebuilding the economy for Fianna Fail to take back over again.



    Well some in this thread are telling us that the policies that are being implemented at the moment are making a difference. A lot of the figures confirm this, but the vast majority agree we have a long way to go yet.

    If we had Sinn Fein, they claim policy would be vastly different. We would have told the EU/IMF to go swing it, defaulted on our debt, stuck the fingers up to the banks and bankers, bailed out the people through the pension fund, all without increasing taxes or cutting (apart from cutting the big pay cheques floating around the public / civil service, because the public hate that). Garth Brooks would have played and the planning decision made by Dublin City Council would have been overruled, because Sinn Fein like to pick and choose when and where to interfere in planning (vote buying, basically).

    How, I hear you asking, can this be done? Well, that's the big question. But the fanboys will have you know that they have a very comprehensive policy document and the raiding of the pension fund with a wealth tax would be a big plus one for the saviour of our economy. They may link you to the policy document but they won't link you to the numerous reports that rubbish their policy document, or the interviews with Gerry Adams where questions are put to him and he dodges the bullets because he can't actually say honestly how it would work. Nor will they tell you about the much much higher property & water charges in the North of Ireland, where the party is in government. Nor will they link you to the various austerity measures they implemented in this very small economy. They might tell you, in rebuttal, that it's all the UKs fault that they force them into these decisions and Sinn Fein have no choice. But sure, down South it's a similar situation - we are told what to do by the EU/IMF but Sinn Fein are demanding the government tell them where to go? They probably wont tell you about the time they linked, in a publicity campaign about Europe, to an economists report that they claimed favoured what they have been saying all along but for it to turnout the economist wasn't actually agreeing with Sinn Fein at all. Big egg on face moment there! On the subject of Europe, it's an odd one that a party that has voted against every single treaty would then run for the European Parliament knowing it's not going to have any real impact on how things are done by Europe that may impact Ireland! But it's not like Sinn Fein have any previous for expenses scandals - North or South. Says a lot about what they would really do in government, and what they would say in opposition. :)

    Now lets not get ahead of ourselves here. The media are against Sinn Fein as are the people online. There all just trolls for the government parties. The main thing is not to believe these trolls and to vote Sinn Fein because they are ready, willing and able to lead Ireland, hand in hand, to a fairer and more honest recovery. For the people, not the politicians or the bankers. But take a look at what Sinn Fein are REALLY saying, when some of their senior members have publicly came out and said there not ready for government.



    At the end of the day, we are in recovery mode regardless of who gets credit. But the fact remains, we have little choice but to rotate between FF, FG & Labour. Maybe a bit of the Greens and Independent for a bit of balance. The rest are way off the ball when it comes to policy and running countries. The country is crying out for an alternative but not a radical alternative yet nobody is willing, not even the rebels in opposition as Independents and ex-party members, to stand up and be accounted for on a large scale.

    That alone, says a lot about Irish politics.


    Balderdash shoo away Shinners will take back the multiple pensions of the Elite, jobs for the boys Quangos and make PS work for their money and pensions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,821 ✭✭✭stimpson


    It worked out mostly OK for the "little people". They got their savings guaranteed up to €100K. If the banks had been wiped out like some people wanted their savings would have been wiped out too. Some little people with bank shares did lose out but shares can go up and down. Unemployment is at the long term average now, it was only during the Celtic Tiger that unemployment reached historic lows. But that came at a longer term cost and repeating the experiment would be a bad idea.

    Also the little people who stopped paying their mortgage got to keep their houses. In the North and in other countries which experienced the international downturn reposessions are multiples higher than in Ireland.

    How many little people had saving of 100k? How many had no savings at all? All the guarantee was for was to prevent a bank run. It's about saving the banks, not the people.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    lufties wrote: »
    I woke this morning and read the headline on the sindo Populations are blaming austerity on bankers like people in the 17th century blamed witches’ - John Bruton. After reading this I just wanted to crawl back under my cover.
    After all that has happened over the last few years, this multi-pensioned elitest comes out with this tripe, basically saying the ordinary joe will have to work harder to keep his banker mates in the lifestyle they're accustomed to. He is obviously pro elite, anti-ordinary citizen.

    I'm beginning to wonder if he is in fact becoming a danger to Ireland :mad:

    no, our apathy is the danger to Ireland, by doing nothing we enable and enrich this fcuker and everyone around him!!
    It's a wake up call to those of us who thought all these battles had been won from roughly 1850 to 1950. (or 1990 ish in Ireland). Bruton is speaking for the elites who through globalisation have reversed the thrust of social and economic reform after the a Industrial revolution. They now want to dictate to and constrain government. I hope the 20 something's wake up and start looking a these people clearly.
    KahBoom wrote: »
    It is surprising the lack of attention people pay to this, and the way people dismiss the idea offhand - overall 'the left' have failed completely, to fulfill the role previously expected of them, of building a proper narrative for informing the public of these political ills, and for informing the public of and motivating for action in favour of alternatives.

    It might take another financial crisis or two, with even more austerity and rolling back of the state (and increased power of private business and finance over public life), before people start paying attention, and 'the left' regroups and starts fulfilling its role.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_movement

    (The Occupy movement is an international protest movement against social and economic inequality, its primary goal being to make the economic and political relations in all societies less vertically hierarchical and more flatly distributed. Local groups often have different focuses, but among the movement's prime concerns deal with how large corporations and the global financial system control the world in a way that disproportionately benefits a minority, undermines democracy, and is unstable)
    GrayFox208 wrote: »
    You're watching too much TV.

    You're watching too much TV!!
    EazyD wrote: »
    Would be even more refreshing if the man himself wasn't receiving an 140k pension.

    the day these fcukers sources of incomes or savings are on the hook is the day we see action!!
    It IS the bankers fault I bought that over priced house and maxed out my credits cards. OK.

    5 words ; pre-approved credit cards etc!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,153 ✭✭✭everdead.ie


    I agree that the bankers are blamed for everything when in reality it was a culmination in trying to buy elections and light to non existent regulation of the financial sector.

    We also moved from a low cost country to an expensive country to live in which meant factory jobs and the like became harder to keep here making it hard for low skilled workers to get work when an existing factory shut down.


    The banks played their role tremendously however and it was the introduction of the 100% mortgage which really highlighted how crazy it was.

    Ireland was caught up in a perfect storm somewhat of our own making but with lots of help from others like Halifax/BOSI and record low interest rates.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    lufties wrote: »
    I woke this morning and read the headline on the sindo Populations are blaming austerity on bankers like people in the 17th century blamed witches’ - John Bruton. After reading this I just wanted to crawl back under my cover.
    After all that has happened over the last few years, this multi-pensioned elitest comes out with this tripe, basically saying the ordinary joe will have to work harder to keep his banker mates in the lifestyle they're accustomed to. He is obviously pro elite, anti-ordinary citizen.

    I'm beginning to wonder if he is in fact becoming a danger to Ireland :mad:

    He always was,and always will be a threat to Ireland, Remember when the peace process was going down the tubes, leader of the rainbow, his reaction when asked to comment "Fúck the peace process".


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,878 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    FG are following orders. You could paint faces on turnips and replace most of FG with them and they'd do a similar job and have similar personalities.



    They were the one party who had no part in the crash and its aftermath yet everything would be exponentially worse had they been driving the car or arriving in the ambulance?

    Your bias is very plain to see.

    FG are plainly a party for elitist scum and deluded idiots who believe they are on their coat tails, but did SF not vote for the theft of taxpayers money to private financial institutions?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1028210.shtml

    With the news that since Brutal's appointment as chairman of the newly-formed financial services body, IFSC Ireland, Dublin's ranking as a financial services centre has tumbled to near the bottom of the table (to be fair, most European cities lost ground, but Dublin's decline was particularly precipitious if this survey is correct), I am starting to understand why Brutal has taken to making these ludicrous announcements. It's to draw attention away from his job performance.

    The real question is why did he get the job in the first place???

    As the Finfacts.ie blog aptly puts it:
    It has of course been a hard sell to promote Dublin during an international bailout. Nevertheless, someone with industry experience maybe better at charming the moneymen than a retired politician.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    FG are plainly a party for elitist scum and deluded idiots who believe they are on their coat tails, but did SF not vote for the theft of taxpayers money to private financial institutions?

    "but did SF not vote for the theft of taxpayers money to private financial institutions?"

    Er, no, they did not. I am among those who would be loath to trust SF on the economy, but they have been consistent on that particular issue.


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