Primary Teaching New Entrants Pay

burly

Hi all,

I am considering re-training as a primary school teacher in the next 2-4 years.

Have been looking into the current rates of pay, and got a bit of a shock at the implications of the Haddington Road agreement on the pay levels of new entrants. My source of info was here: http://www.into.ie/ROI/InfoforTeachers/Salary/CommonBasicScales/

I'd appreciate if someone can verify if my understanding of this is correct.

From what i can see, if you graduated pre 2011, you started on €30,904 plus if you had a Masters and H.Dip you got an extra €5,496 and €591 respectively. So effectively, your salary was approximately €37,000 in year 1.

If you entered teaching since 1st Nov 2013, you start on €27,814 with no allowances for academic qualifications.So effectievly in the space of 2 years of negotiations, these new agrements have seen new entrants down nearly €10,000 per year.

Is this correct? If it is, I am quite shocked and have to admit it seems like the INTO have sold out those teachers who were in 1st year of college in 2010-2011 and onwards.

Can someone verify this for me?

TheDriver

You should still get the Hons degree and dip,allowance, its the masters allowance that's gone.
most are BEds so wont have a dip allowance

Geologyrocks

No the allowances for degree and dip are gone for new entrants

Theequalizer67

Yes sold out.
Ask union officials to explain how this solidarity works.

TheDriver

sorry you are correct but didn't they change it back to starting on a higher point on the scale to compensate for that (as much as you could call it "compensation")

burly

there's no mention of this compensation 'on that INTO page, where did you hear this?

byhookorbycrook

And that pay is only if you get a full time job,which is as rare as a white tiger these days. People have swallowed the media and DES spin about big salaries and an easy full time permanent life.

smcgiff

On the plus side it's likely some or all of the pay cuts will be reversed by the time you qualify.

It'll still be very hard to get a job though. Especially if the pay hikes are at the expense of more teaching positions.

TheDriver

I say compensation as satire. In HRA agreement (I think) they upped the starting point on the scale which is some ways gave back the loss of allowances. However you then reach the top of the scale quicker.

On reversal of pay cuts: I don't see this being very widespread to be honest, will believe it when I see it. probably be landed in with lots of productivity hours

mirrorwall14

To be fair, why blame the union? It's the government who put the cut in place, there was no negotiation and they deliberately went after new entrants because it would be harder for them to fight it given they weren't employed yet

Theequalizer67

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

To be fair, why blame the union? It's the government who put the cut in place, there was no negotiation and they deliberately went after new entrants because it would be harder for them to fight it given they weren't employed yet

Why?
The role of a union is to protect ALL members not a select number.
They repeatedly failed to defend new entrants and will reap this in years to come.

mirrorwall14

The government didn't give the union any chance to negotiate. There has been literally zero negotiation on anything related to education in several years, everything has been top down mandated. Even the new JC is being pushed through even though it wasn't even advocated in its current form by the ministers own advisers. It was the middle of a massive recession, the union couldn't win on the PR front. I honestly don't know what you expected them to do? New entrants suffered across the public service, not just teaching. The government knew they could easily win that battle and they did

Edit: To clarify I think the new salary scales are a disgrace but I don't understand why people blame someone who didn't actually cut the pay? Its like blaming the student council if I increased the amount of homework I gave my LC's past the achievable level. The students would rightly blame me, not the students council because ultimately it was me that did it!

TheDriver

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The government didn't give the union any chance to negotiate. There has been literally zero negotiation on anything related to education in several years, everything has been top down mandated. Even the new JC is being pushed through even though it wasn't even advocated in its current form by the ministers own advisers. It was the middle of a massive recession, the union couldn't win on the PR front. I honestly don't know what you expected them to do? New entrants suffered across the public service, not just teaching. The government knew they could easily win that battle and they did

Edit: To clarify I think the new salary scales are a disgrace but I don't understand why people blame someone who didn't actually cut the pay? Its like blaming the student council if I increased the amount of homework I gave my LC's past the achievable level. The students would rightly blame me, not the students council because ultimately it was me that did it!

Whilst I agree with you, people here expect the union to fight everything even though its obvious nothing will be won. The Govt knows that there is only so much we can do. And the membership must be to blame also, I have lost count of the amount of staff members who don't realise s&s is cut or increments are delayed because they don't bother reading but still vote yes.......

mirrorwall14

I suppose I do expect them to fight everything but I'm not expecting them to win everything. Parents always used to say pick your battles, and this one always seemed to be lost as soon as the government brought it up

burly

smcgiff wrote: »

On the plus side it's likely some or all of the pay cuts will be reversed by the time you qualify.

It'll still be very hard to get a job though. Especially if the pay hikes are at the expense of more teaching positions.

Do you think the qualification allowances are every likely to be restored though? That is serious money. I cant believe that a greaduate of 2011 is earning almost 10K more than a graduate in 2013 for doing the same job.

TheDriver

I don't because they would have to give every allowance to every sector. There will be other measures however to bring everyone into line.....

burly

TheDriver wrote: »

I don't because they would have to give every allowance to every sector. There will be other measures however to bring everyone into line.....

such as?!!! (I'm hoping you know some inside information!)

Mardy Bum

burly wrote: »

Do you think the qualification allowances are every likely to be restored though? That is serious money. I cant believe that a greaduate of 2011 is earning almost 10K more than a graduate in 2013 for doing the same job.

Allowances won't be reinstated. The government need to reduce the deficit considerably even still so it is unlikely they will raise the salaries. They may lower some of the extra taxes though. I think RQ got everything he wanted in terms of cost management during his tenure between the drop in the salary, scraping of allowances for new entrants and scrapping of S&S. It is hard to see any of that reinstated. The only thing I could imagine them increasing would be the number of posts in schools.

dambarude

It really is scandalous. There are three distinct payscales, and the two newest ones have changed so many times it is difficult to keep up with them.

A teacher hired pre-2011 would actually have started on the second (or third) point of the scale, depending on the length of the degree they completed. So they would have had a starting salary of 33,041+4918 = 37,959. That's without a masters or HDip. If one *did* hold those qualifications, with say a four year bachelor's degree, they would start on 33,041+4918+1236=39,195.That is even higher than the OP calculated.

Since the cuts started, all teachers start at the bottom of the scale. A teacher now starts at 30,702 (2012) scale. They start at this regardless of whether they hold a HDip or Masters.

I'm on the 2011 scale, which is slightly better than the 2012 scale. However, even with my post of responsibility, I am earning less after teaching two years than I would have in my first year if I had started pre-2011.

smcgiff

Mardy Bum wrote: »

It is hard to see any of that reinstated.

You need to keep up to date with the papers and government announcements. Also, elections are not too far off.

burly

dambarude wrote: »

It really is scandalous. There are three distinct payscales, and the two newest ones have changed so many times it is difficult to keep up with them.

A teacher hired pre-2011 would actually have started on the second (or third) point of the scale, depending on the length of the degree they completed. So they would have had a starting salary of 33,041+4918 = 37,959. That's without a masters or HDip. If one *did* hold those qualifications, with say a four year bachelor's degree, they would start on 33,041+4918+1236=39,195.That is even higher than the OP calculated.

Since the cuts started, all teachers start at the bottom of the scale. A teacher now starts at 30,702 (2012) scale. They start at this regardless of whether they hold a HDip or Masters.

I'm on the 2011 scale, which is slightly better than the 2012 scale. However, even with my post of responsibility, I am earning less after teaching two years than I would have in my first year if I had started pre-2011.

I actually think a teacher now starts at €27,814 which is even worse.

That figure is taken from Circular 53/2014 which supercedes the figures in DES Circular 32/2013 that had it at €30.702.


This is why i started this thread, there is some confusion about this. If someone graduates from Mary i or Pats or Hibernia this month, and got a job i September, are they on Point 1 of the Circular 53/2014 scale, i.e €27,814 with NO allowances whatsoever? If thats the case, then from your calculations, they are earning nearly 12k less than someone who stared working in September 2011. And to think that senior teachers, (which I assume most of the INTO negotiators were) kept their 2k allowance for 35 years service on top of their 60k + salaries!


This imbalance is so wrong.

burly

please have a look at this link, and tell me if I have this right?

It seems to me that Circular 53/2014 is the latest, which sees new entrants start on €27,814.

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InfoforTeachers/Salary/CommonBasicScales/

Mardy Bum

smcgiff wrote: »

You need to keep up to date with the papers and government announcements. Also, elections are not too far off.

Just because Howlin said they would discuss it next year it doesn't mean it will all be reinstated especially for new entrants.

mirrorwall14

burly wrote: »

And to think that senior teachers, (which I assume most of the INTO negotiators were) kept their 2k allowance for 35 years service on top of their 60k + salaries!


This imbalance is so wrong.

I wouldn't begrudge teachers with 35 years service that 2k, I'm teaching a few years now and I can't even imagine having taught for that long!!

New entrants need to get involved and work together. Start contacting TD's, councillors and your minister. Keep contacting them. Join the union and attend meetings. Try and liaise with other public service areas-remember its not just teachers that were cut for new entrants!

evolving_doors

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I wouldn't begrudge teachers with 35 years service that 2k, I'm teaching a few years now and I can't even imagine having taught for that long!!

New entrants need to get involved and work together. Start contacting TD's, councillors and your minister. Keep contacting them. Join the union and attend meetings. Try and liaise with other public service areas-remember its not just teachers that were cut for new entrants!

Aye, the 'selling down the river by older members' argument has cropped up here quite a lot. I'm afraid that's like the 'Blame Lehman brothers' Bertie thesis. There's a little blame for everybody in the audience really.

rainbowtrout

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I wouldn't begrudge teachers with 35 years service that 2k, I'm teaching a few years now and I can't even imagine having taught for that long!!

New entrants need to get involved and work together. Start contacting TD's, councillors and your minister. Keep contacting them. Join the union and attend meetings. Try and liaise with other public service areas-remember its not just teachers that were cut for new entrants!

I'd agree. For a teacher to get that allowance they have to be teaching since 1979. How many of us were around in 1979??? I was in nappies. Those getting the allowance have been teaching longer than I've been alive. They've also been on the top of the payscale for 10 years with no pay rise at that stage. I wouldn't begrudge anyone an extra 2k if they've stuck it out for 35 years with all the changes that have come in over that time. Plenty are retiring with 35 years service done rather than stick it out to 40, so never get the allowance.

In the greater scheme of things it'll be a fairly irrelevant allowance in the future anyway with the amount of people going into teaching later in life, career changes, taking a long time to get up the scale because of subbing, working part-time hours, not able to get jobs. Few in the future will actually see 35 years in teaching - unless they plan on teaching into their 70s of course.

dambarude

burly wrote: »

please have a look at this link, and tell me if I have this right?

It seems to me that Circular 53/2014 is the latest, which sees new entrants start on €27,814.

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InfoforTeachers/Salary/CommonBasicScales/

The circular you are referring to addresses the pay of 2011 entrants, who recently had their (our) pay scale changed. This is a small cohort of teachers, who were first on payroll between 1/1/2011 and 1/2/2012. These teachers start on 27,814, but are paid the Honours Degree Allowance.

Anybody starting now will be on the 2012 payscale, which starts at 30,702, with no degree allowance. See the bottom of this page and this circular (parts of which are now defunct- the 2011 entrant salary) for details.

Caiseoipe19

Armelodie wrote: »

Aye, the 'selling down the river by older members' argument has cropped up here quite a lot. I'm afraid that's like the 'Blame Lehman brothers' Bertie thesis. There's a little blame for everybody in the audience really.

In fairness though, when the the pay and allowances of NQTs were targeted, the majority of the people that they would effect were not teachers yet so they couldn't have fought against them.
Sure, now NQTs can join the unions and stand up for themselves, but once cuts have been brought in, there's little chance of them being reinstated any time soon in my opinion. The damage has been done. The members of the union at the time of the cuts had much more power to oppose them before they were introduced at all. While I'm sure some did fight them, obviously not enough cared.
It was a smart move by the government, attacking people that aren't even in the profession yet and thus limiting opposition.

mirrorwall14

Caiseoipe19 wrote: »

In fairness though, when the the pay and allowances of NQTs were targeted, the majority of the people that they would effect were not teachers yet so they couldn't have fought against them.
Sure, now NQTs can join the unions and stand up for themselves, but once cuts have been brought in, there's little chance of them being reinstated any time soon in my opinion. The damage has been done. The members of the union at the time of the cuts had much more power to oppose them before they were introduced at all. While I'm sure some did fight them, obviously not enough cared.
It was a smart move by the government, attacking people that aren't even in the profession yet and thus limiting opposition.

Equally in fairness those in the profession were fighting multiple other battles against croke parke hours, HR S and S, teaching council registration, pay freezes, pension levies and the terms and conditions of employment. There was a battle on so many fronts, the public service was being vilified by the media and you are right-it was the government who Deliberately chose the newcomers because they knew that they couldn't fight and that the unions were up to their eyeballs in so many fights already

smcgiff

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Just because Howlin said they would discuss it next year it doesn't mean it will all be reinstated especially for new entrants.

Well, at least now you've caugbt up with what they said.

smcgiff

Armelodie wrote: »

Aye, the 'selling down the river by older members' argument has cropped up here quite a lot. I'm afraid that's like the 'Blame Lehman brothers' Bertie thesis. There's a little blame for everybody in the audience really.

Nah, there's a reason why he divided and conquered. A lot of younger teachers are as bitter with the INTO as with the government.

I think with just cause.

Mardy Bum

smcgiff wrote: »

Well, at least now you've caugbt up with what they said.

Excuse me I was well aware of it. I just don't swallow it like some.

evolving_doors

smcgiff wrote: »

Nah, there's a reason why he divided and conquered. A lot of younger teachers are as bitter with the INTO as with the government.

I think with just cause.

Sure, I agree the bitterness is well justified. I think though, to hang it all on 'senior teachers' [from burly's post] is just a bit too general.

What about all the teachers that didn't vote, teachers that didn;t even know what the vote was about, younger teachers who didn;t have a clue about all the strikes to fight for pay and conditions that had gone on before them so didn't bother engaging with their unions.

I think there are a good share of 'senior teachers' who did fight the good fight and weren't afraid to march for their profession. Just a bit of perspective that's all.

burly

HI all,

Thanks for all you replies.

Just thought I'd share this response form the INTO,. it echoes what dambarude said anyway.



Thank you for your query.

Just to clarify that all teachers entering service after 1st February 2012 start on point 1 of the 1/February/2012 salary scale.

This is outlined in Circulars 8/2013 and 32/2013.

All teachers who are first appointed on or after 1 February 2012 to a teaching position
in an Oireachtas funded post for which they are appropriately qualified and registered
will start on the first point of the post-1 February 2012 incremental salary scale.
Currently the gross salary per annum is €30,702.
In relation to qualification allowances, as per terms of Circular 8/2013

Qualification Allowances

In the case of persons first employed in a qualified (and for appointments after
September 2010, registered) capacity in a teaching position in an Oireachtas
funded post on or before 4 December 2011 qualification allowances are payable in
respect of qualifications acquired on or before 4 December 2011. No allowances are
payable should the individual acquire a further qualification regardless of the purpose
of the qualification or the date of commencement of the course of study.

byhookorbycrook

Don't want to start a row, but for many years the only people at our INTO branch meetings were 35 plus. Younger members just didn't bother with the union when times were good. Yes, new entrants are being screwed ,yes it's wrong, but people need to speak at union meetings and we need unity to help make the pay scales fairer.
The govt have already pitted public sector vs private sector very successfully , we can't afford a divided union now too.

poolsandles

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Don't want to start a row, but for many years the only people at our INTO branch meetings were 35 plus. Younger members just didn't bother with the union when times were good. Yes, new entrants are being screwed ,yes it's wrong, but people need to speak at union meetings and we need unity to help make the pay scales fairer.

Have to agree this is also my experience. I am one of the new entrants. Attended an INTO branch meeting of THREE branches together this summer, I was the ONLY non permanent teacher who attended! As a result, most of the issues being discussed were pensions and sick leave changes as those were the issues affecting those who were there! I do go to meetings and try to get involved, but it's very hard to raise an issue when you are the only one in the room affected by it !! I now ask my colleagues who complain the INTO are doing nothing when they last went to a meeting. The silence is deafening.....

evolving_doors

poolsandles wrote: »

Have to agree this is also my experience. I am one of the new entrants. Attended an INTO branch meeting of THREE branches together this summer, I was the ONLY non permanent teacher who attended! As a result, most of the issues being discussed were pensions and sick leave changes as those were the issues affecting those who were there! I do go to meetings and try to get involved, but it's very hard to raise an issue when you are the only one in the room affected by it !! I now ask my colleagues who complain the INTO are doing nothing when they last went to a meeting. The silence is deafening.....

That's just it really,, when asked about poor voter turnout in elections I remember Mary O' Rourke saying 'well if people don't vote then maybe it means they are happy with the way things are' [paraphrasing].