Government to reverse some Public Secor Pay cuts

Gumbo

Head The Wall wrote: »

Really, so €215 Billion is not classed as being especially broke

Government Finance Statistics Quarterly Results Q1 2014

I know single people that have mortgages of 300k or 400k in one instance, and they are not broke. Money has to be borrowed to live. Just like a country needs to borrow to stay open. We will always have government debt. Once or ability to pay that debt is ok, like it is presently. That's the way it's done in Ireland, might be different in England where you are.

Black Swan

MOD REMINDER:
Some of the above posts include comments that are drifting towards getting too personal. Spirited discussion is welcome, but getting too personal is not.

golfwallah

kceire wrote: »

I know single people that have mortgages of 300k or 400k in one instance, and they are not broke. Money has to be borrowed to live. Just like a country needs to borrow to stay open. We will always have government debt. Once or ability to pay that debt is ok, like it is presently. That's the way it's done in Ireland, might be different in England where you are.

People with huge mortgages that are many times their income may not be broke – right now. But they are taking high risks e.g. that their income levels will remain “as is” or rise or that interest rates will remain low. These may not appear to be significant risks now – but things can change very quickly – leading to penury or bankruptcy.

The same principles apply to Government borrowing and spending. Our government is currently borrowing over 122.3% of GDP or 140% of GNP, and continuing to add to the deficit every year. Interest rates are abnormally low at the moment but what risk that this will continue? I would think that there are high risks that interest will increase over the next 10 years or so, placing us at risk of default on our loans. This would not be good for an open economy like ours.

This is some of what colm McCarthy has to say about it in today’s Sunday Independent:

It should be clear that the deficit-reducing efforts have not reached a point where it is safe to ease up. The ongoing budget deficit remains too high to be sustainable. Things are certainly in better shape than they were when the Government took office and it deserves credit for that, but it will have dissipated that credit if it proceeds on a Rake's Progress into the next election, with promises to cut taxes, increase public service pay and generally to proceed as if the war has been won. The economy may be about to recover but there is no conceivable rate of economic growth that will make the sums add up if budgetary restraint is abandoned. A durable recovery is in any event dependent on better export markets and the recent data around Europe is not promising.

Given the enormous debt overhang, the Irish public finances will not prove sustainable until at least a decade of budget surpluses has been achieved. This will take, at least, three successive governments devoted to prudent fiscal management.

Head The Wall

barneystinson wrote: »

Genuine question: what country's PS pay model do the PS bashers think we should be following? Can Fliball or Noodler or any of the others who are galled by our incremental pay scales, point at some country or countries whose lead we should be following?

Ok, so you're just going to ignore what has been posted and try and deflect. That seems to be the typical reaction.

Well considering Ireland is one of the countries in the EU that has the highest percentile difference between Public and Private wages maybe we should follow the lead of countries that have something closer to parity. Most of the countries that had the biggest public & private disparities are surprisingly members of the PIIGS and these reports have taken into account the education and skill set levels. Here are a few reports backing up my claims

Public-private wage differentials and the distribution of skills across sectors

The gap between public and private wages: new evidence for the EU

When compared with the EU average, public workers with lower skills are in a relatively better position in Cyprus, Germany, Spain, Greece, Ireland and Poland (often around 20% or above). The economic conditions of workers with a higher educational attainment are better than average in Cyprus, Spain and Ireland.

If other countries can run themselves a lot better than the PIIGS have with a lower differential then we should at least strive to be more like them for a start.

Black Swan wrote: »

MOD REMINDER:
Some of the above posts include comments that are drifting towards getting too personal. Spirited discussion is welcome, but getting too personal is not.

Agreed, it seems when people can't respond they have to relate to a persons location as if I can't comment from outside of Ireland. I have a much clearer view and don't have a biased opinion as I am neither paying PS wages nor receiving them. It just shows says you can't really rebut what I have posted if all you can do is refer to my location

woodoo

Head The Wall wrote: »

Ok, so you're just going to ignore what has been posted and try and deflect. That seems to be the typical reaction.

Well considering Ireland is one of the countries in the EU that has the highest percentile difference between Public and Private wages maybe we should follow the lead of countries that have something closer to parity. Most of the countries that had the biggest public & private disparities are surprisingly members of the PIIGS and these reports have taken into account the education and skill set levels. Here are a few reports backing up my claims

Public-private wage differentials and the distribution of skills across sectors

The gap between public and private wages: new evidence for the EU




If other countries can run themselves a lot better than the PIIGS have with a lower differential then we should at least strive to be more like them for a start.




Agreed, it seems when people can't respond they have to relate to a persons location as if I can't comment from outside of Ireland. I have a much clearer view and don't have a biased opinion as I am neither paying PS wages nor receiving them. It just shows says you can't really rebut what I have posted if all you can do is refer to my location

One of the reasons for the pay differential (although its only about 14%) is that women in the public service are paid the same as men but in the private sector they are in a lot of part time and low paying jobs. They are paid less than men. This is a problem for the private sector to remedy.

Calling for the public service to come down to meet their low average is not the way forward. Additionally, the public service are better educated and the very top guys in the private sector are not included in the stats. Nothing to see here move on to another subject.

Gumbo

Head The Wall wrote: »

Agreed, it seems when people can't respond they have to relate to a persons location as if I can't comment from outside of Ireland. I have a much clearer view and don't have a biased opinion as I am neither paying PS wages nor receiving them. It just shows says you can't really rebut what I have posted if all you can do is refer to my location

I think calling for people to post up their payslips also pays a big part in it too

barneystinson

Head The Wall wrote: »

Ok, so you're just going to ignore what has been posted and try and deflect. That seems to be the typical reaction.

Well considering Ireland is one of the countries in the EU that has the highest percentile difference between Public and Private wages maybe we should follow the lead of countries that have something closer to parity. Most of the countries that had the biggest public & private disparities are surprisingly members of the PIIGS and these reports have taken into account the education and skill set levels. Here are a few reports backing up my claims

Public-private wage differentials and the distribution of skills across sectors

The gap between public and private wages: new evidence for the EU




If other countries can run themselves a lot better than the PIIGS have with a lower differential then we should at least strive to be more like them for a start.

I thought it was quite a simple, and actually very reasonable question - if you're going to come on the boards and rant about our PS pay system and increments etc., can you point me to the PS pay model that you think we should aspire to?

I'm not trying to deflect anything - we've had the same running arguments for the last I don't know how many years, and anyone who still thinks they can "win" any of those arguments is codding themselves TBH.

I'm asking the question to try to bring the conversation down a constructive road - we aren't perfect, no-one is, but if you want us to improve then who should we be emulating? The Brits?, Ze Germans?, some of the scandinavians? I certainly don't know, but I've no particular axe to grind like so many of the posters on here do...

Do you not think it would be more constructive if instead of saying "the Irish PS should be run the same way as the private sector" (which probably really means "the company I work for" and is clearly a nonsense), people could say, " the Irish PS should be run more like the PS in [insert reasonable comparator developed country here]"?

Am I missing something? Otherwise we'll just keep going round in circles with the "Increments are a pay-rise" - "No they're not" - "Yes they are" Pantomine indefinitely.

Or of course, you can just come out and say that you have a fundamental difficulty with how PS organisations are run, everywhere and always, which is also fine if that's what one believes.

golfwallah

barneystinson wrote: »

I thought it was quite a simple, and actually very reasonable question - if you're going to come on the boards and rant about our PS pay system and increments etc., can you point me to the PS pay model that you think we should aspire to?

I'm not trying to deflect anything - we've had the same running arguments for the last I don't know how many years, and anyone who still thinks they can "win" any of those arguments is codding themselves TBH.

I'm asking the question to try to bring the conversation down a constructive road - we aren't perfect, no-one is, but if you want us to improve then who should we be emulating? The Brits?, Ze Germans?, some of the scandinavians? I certainly don't know, but I've no particular axe to grind like so many of the posters on here do...

Do you not think it would be more constructive if instead of saying "the Irish PS should be run the same way as the private sector" (which probably really means "the company I work for" and is clearly a nonsense), people could say, " the Irish PS should be run more like the PS in [insert reasonable comparator developed country here]"?

Am I missing something? Otherwise we'll just keep going round in circles with the "Increments are a pay-rise" - "No they're not" - "Yes they are" Pantomine indefinitely.

Or of course, you can just come out and say that you have a fundamental difficulty with how PS organisations are run, everywhere and always, which is also fine if that's what one believes.

We don't have to slavishly emulate any other country - that's what helped get us into the financial mess in the first place, IMO. You only have to think "light touch regulation", "bankers pay incentives", etc., that resulted in our own home grown solutions of "benchmarking", "over-reliance on property taxes", "inflated asset values", etc. to see that.

I'd rather see us thinking the situation out for ourselves, looking at the alternatives, making informed and politically doable choices and then committing to implementing them.

But that's before all the interest groups - public v private sector, pensioners, welfare dependants, etc. - all wanting it their way - now!

While the debate about what to do goes on, continuing excess of government expenditure over income is being financed by more borrowings - and adding to an already huge debt mountain. This includes levels of public service pay and pensions that we simply cannot afford. Increases in public service pay will add to that growing debt burden.

This growth in debt financing is a very risky strategy, IMHO.

The missing ingredient, as far as I can see, is more decisive political leadership. What we have now is compromise, long-fingering, inertia and, of course, an eye to the next general election.

barneystinson

golfwallah wrote: »

We don't have to slavishly emulate any other country - that's what helped get us into the financial mess in the first place, IMO. You only have to think "light touch regulation", "bankers pay incentives", etc., that resulted in our own home grown solutions of "benchmarking", "over-reliance on property taxes", "inflated asset values", etc. to see that.

I'd rather see us thinking the situation out for ourselves, looking at the alternatives, making informed and politically doable choices and then committing to implementing them.

But that's before all the interest groups - public v private sector, pensioners, welfare dependants, etc. - all wanting it their way - now!

While the debate about what to do goes on, continuing excess of government expenditure over income is being financed by more borrowings - and adding to an already huge debt mountain. This includes levels of public service pay and pensions that we simply cannot afford. Increases in public service pay will add to that growing debt burden.

This growth in debt financing is a very risky strategy, IMHO.

The missing ingredient, as far as I can see, is more decisive political leadership. What we have now is compromise, long-fingering, inertia and, of course, an eye to the next general election.

So in other words, there isn't a PS system anywhere in the world that we could adopt, that would make you happy?

That's a tall task you're setting our government, to come up with something that in your opinion has never been achieved anywhere ever before, in the middle of a financial crisis.

golfwallah

barneystinson wrote: »

So in other words, there isn't a PS system anywhere in the world that we could adopt, that would make you happy?

That's a tall task you're setting our government, to come up with something that in your opinion has never been achieved anywhere ever before, in the middle of a financial crisis.

The only one on here looking for an overseas PS model to copy is yourself.

I've never said anything about looking for another PS model to copy.

Another PS model to copy should not be the starting point in international comparison - it's certainly not what international lenders look at, i.e. our Debt / GDP ratio and ability to repay loans (see Eurostat). They are more concerned with "what" we achieve as opposed to "how", which is left very much to ourselves.

The objectives here should be what is in the interest of the majority not just vested interests.

Borrowing to finance investment in future wealth generation for the majority is an example of prudent spending. Current account spending on public service pay increases that have to be financed out of borrowings is placing the majority at risk of financial difficulties, should any unpredictable economic events come along that effect international trade.

Its a question of choice and risk management - which is the better thing to do - spend more than you have on day to day activities or limit current spending and invest scarce resources in finding ways out of our financial mess.

barneystinson

golfwallah wrote: »

The only one on here looking for an overseas PS model to copy is yourself.

I've never said anything about looking for another PS model to copy.

Another PS model to copy should not be the starting point in international comparison - it's certainly not what international lenders look at, i.e. our Debt / GDP ratio and ability to repay loans (see Eurostat). They are more concerned with "what" we achieve as opposed to "how", which is left very much to ourselves.

The objectives here should be what is in the interest of the majority not just vested interests.

Borrowing to finance investment in future wealth generation for the majority is an example of prudent spending. Current account spending on public service pay increases that have to be financed out of borrowings is placing the majority at risk of financial difficulties, should any unpredictable economic events come along that effect international trade.

Its a question of choice and risk management - which is the better thing to do - spend more than you have on day to day activities or limit current spending and invest scarce resources in finding ways out of our financial mess.

You can't simply talk about the numbers in isolation and pretend like there isn't the matter of the PS unions to be dealt with, if a course of action other than returning to the pre-HRA status quo is intended.

The reality is that as things currently stand HRA expires mid-2016 and the PS workforce will expect their money back then, in line with the terms of the agreement, no different than anyone in any other job.

Speaking of risk I'd say it would be a substantial risk to attempt to renege on the agreement in place with over 250k workers whose pay, terms and conditions have already been hit several times in the last 5 years.

The reason I asked for people to point to a better PS elsewhere that we can aspire to was so that we could progress the discussion from exactly the type of post you've got there - what you've said isn't unreasonable, but it's not actually proposing anything.

Sheldons Brain

golfwallah wrote: »

The only one on here looking for an overseas PS model to copy is yourself.

I've never said anything about looking for another PS model to copy.

Another PS model to copy should not be the starting point in international comparison - it's certainly not what international lenders look at, i.e. our Debt / GDP ratio and ability to repay loans (see Eurostat). They are more concerned with "what" we achieve as opposed to "how", which is left very much to ourselves.

OK then, I propose decimation. Let the government go out to every tenth citizen and take all their money. That should do it, as it is only the outcome not the means that is important.

Borrowing to finance investment in future wealth generation for the majority is an example of prudent spending. .

In your world building an IDA factory is "investment", educating the people who are going to work in it is "imprudent expenditure".

golfwallah

barneystinson wrote: »

You can't simply talk about the numbers in isolation and pretend like there isn't the matter of the PS unions to be dealt with, if a course of action other than returning to the pre-HRA status quo is intended.

The reality is that as things currently stand HRA expires mid-2016 and the PS workforce will expect their money back then, in line with the terms of the agreement, no different than anyone in any other job.

Speaking of risk I'd say it would be a substantial risk to attempt to renege on the agreement in place with over 250k workers whose pay, terms and conditions have already been hit several times in the last 5 years.

The reason I asked for people to point to a better PS elsewhere that we can aspire to was so that we could progress the discussion from exactly the type of post you've got there - what you've said isn't unreasonable, but it's not actually proposing anything.

I don't have the resources to do the research to enable me to put forward specific proposals you are asking for. It's not for me to do it anyway - that's the job of each individual Government Minister, who have the resources to do this type of thing, and for the cabinet to choose from alternatives.

All I'm saying is we currently can't afford more PS pay increases nor should they be made unless equivalent savings are made elsewhere.

We just can't afford to keep on borrowing to finance current spending - alternatives to spending more and adding to the borrowings have to be found.

barneystinson

golfwallah wrote: »

I don't have the resources to do the research to enable me to put forward specific proposals you are asking for. It's not for me to do it anyway - that's the job of each individual Government Minister, who have the resources to do this type of thing, and for the cabinet to choose from alternatives.

All I'm saying is we currently can't afford more PS pay increases nor should they be made unless equivalent savings are made elsewhere.

We just can't afford to keep on borrowing to finance current spending - alternatives to spending more and adding to the borrowings have to be found.

You must be relieved to be finished with this thread now so

qwert55

public sector pay should be cut by about 20 % over a period of 2 or 3 years, it should be a phased cut. The status quo is unsustainable.
Basically the cost of living is artificially too high in ireland due to the necessity to cover the salaries of 300000 public servants.
By any measures the public sector is overpaid, over pensioned and probably under worked.
The irish economy is still on the critical list.
If the cost of living is not tackled we will become less competitive and Foreign direct investment will not come to ireland because other countries are much more attractive .What we call Austerity is called living within your means in other countries.
Unless the waste in the public sector is tackled the country will never recover.
We should follow the Canadian example when the finance minister Paul Martin made the unpopular decisions that led to cuts in the 90s and eventually the recovery of the economy.
In reality this will not happen here because we have a government who are terrified of the PS voting block

barneystinson

qwert55 wrote: »

public sector pay should be cut by about 20 % over a period of 2 or 3 years, it should be a phased cut. The status quo is unsustainable.
Basically the cost of living is artificially too high in ireland due to the necessity to cover the salaries of 300000 public servants.
By any measures the public sector is overpaid, over pensioned and probably under worked.
The irish economy is still on the critical list.
If the cost of living is not tackled we will become less competitive and Foreign direct investment will not come to ireland because other countries are much more attractive .What we call Austerity is called living within your means in other countries.
Unless the waste in the public sector is tackled the country will never recover.
We should follow the Canadian example when the finance minister Paul Martin made the unpopular decisions that led to cuts in the 90s and eventually the recovery of the economy.
In reality this will not happen here because we have a government who are terrified of the PS voting block

Only 20%? Are you sure that'll do it? Or maybe after that Qwert56 or Qwert57 will be on boards saying EXACTLY the same things as you have said there... this is the trouble with PS bashing, there'll never actually be a point when it's enough. There will always be a noisy (on anonymous Internet forums at least) block of people who will never be satisfied with the pay & conditions in the PS.

Since you bring up Canada, how does their PS pay system work? I haven't looked at it, so I've no preconceived notions, do they have incremental pay scales based on service, or performance related pay, or what?

Edit: so I just googled Canada's PS pay arrangements and they seem to enter into collective bargaining and have fixed payscales for each role/grade, with increments based on time served as far as I can tell...

Peter Flynt

qwert55 wrote: »

public sector pay should be cut by about 20 % over a period of 2 or 3 years, it should be a phased cut. The status quo is unsustainable.
Basically the cost of living is artificially too high in ireland due to the necessity to cover the salaries of 300000 public servants.
By any measures the public sector is overpaid, over pensioned and probably under worked.
The irish economy is still on the critical list.
If the cost of living is not tackled we will become less competitive and Foreign direct investment will not come to ireland because other countries are much more attractive .What we call Austerity is called living within your means in other countries.
Unless the waste in the public sector is tackled the country will never recover.
We should follow the Canadian example when the finance minister Paul Martin made the unpopular decisions that led to cuts in the 90s and eventually the recovery of the economy.
In reality this will not happen here because we have a government who are terrified of the PS voting block

.

Gumbo

qwert55 wrote: »

public sector pay should be cut by about 20 % over a period of 2 or 3 years, it should be a phased cut. The status quo is unsustainable.
Basically the cost of living is artificially too high in ireland due to the necessity to cover the salaries of 300000 public servants.
By any measures the public sector is overpaid, over pensioned and probably under worked.
The irish economy is still on the critical list.
If the cost of living is not tackled we will become less competitive and Foreign direct investment will not come to ireland because other countries are much more attractive .What we call Austerity is called living within your means in other countries.
Unless the waste in the public sector is tackled the country will never recover.
We should follow the Canadian example when the finance minister Paul Martin made the unpopular decisions that led to cuts in the 90s and eventually the recovery of the economy.
In reality this will not happen here because we have a government who are terrified of the PS voting block

You throw in lots of big words, economy, status quo, artificially, unsustainable, Foreign direct investment, but yet your post makes absolute no sense at all.......The mind boggles

Godge

qwert55 wrote: »

public sector pay should be cut by about 20 % over a period of 2 or 3 years, it should be a phased cut. The status quo is unsustainable.

There is no evidence to support this.

Just this week, we saw the introduction of new salary scales for hospital consultants because we cannot recruit them at the current low salary scales. The recent evidence therefore is that at least some PS salaries are too low.

qwert55 wrote: »

Basically the cost of living is artificially too high in ireland due to the necessity to cover the salaries of 300000 public servants.

On what basis do you say this?

Where is the causal link between PS salaries and the cost of living?
Do we have excessive public servants compared to other countries?

qwert55 wrote: »

By any measures the public sector is overpaid, over pensioned and probably under worked.

Maybe you could enlighten us with some of those measures. Recent statistics please.

qwert55 wrote: »

The irish economy is still on the critical list.

Not according to any expert or to any statistics. The ratings agency are raising our rating, the budget deficit is ahead of target. The debt ratio is ahead of target.

We are still a patient, but a rapidly improving one, certainly not on the critical list.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/exchequer-figures-the-economy-is-booming-30556065.html

qwert55 wrote: »

If the cost of living is not tackled we will become less competitive and Foreign direct investment will not come to ireland because other countries are much more attractive .What we call Austerity is called living within your means in other countries.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/sites/default/files/Exchequer%20Returns%20end%20August%202014%20information%20note.pdf

If you look carefully into this information, it is possible though unlikely that we could hit the 3% budget target this year instead of next year. At the same time, France is heading for over 4%. ??????? Who is living beyond their means????

qwert55 wrote: »

Unless the waste in the public sector is tackled the country will never recover.

Await examples of waste that is statistically significant, not just anecdotes.

qwert55 wrote: »

We should follow the Canadian example when the finance minister Paul Martin made the unpopular decisions that led to cuts in the 90s and eventually the recovery of the economy.

Canada?

http://chronicle.com/blogs/global/canadian-professors-best-paid-in-the-world%E2%80%94again/32603

The country with the highest-paid professors (public servants you know?)

qwert55 wrote: »

In reality this will not happen here because we have a government who are terrified of the PS voting block

Too late for this government. They imposed pay cuts last year, delayed increments and increased working hours for all public servants, they suffered in the polls. They might as well cut public sector salaries again as they have lost that vote.


It is so easy to come on here and throw out spurious comments about the public sector without providing one bit of hard evidence to back up ill-thought out soundbites.

ardmacha

qwert55 wrote: »

By any measures the public sector is overpaid, over pensioned and probably under worked.

All 280,000 of them? The bomb disposal officers, the bio-technology professors, the Data analysts, the brain surgeons? Evidence please.

golfwallah

qwert55 wrote: »

What we call Austerity is called living within your means in other countries.

Godge wrote: »

If you look carefully into this information, it is possible though unlikely that we could hit the 3% budget target this year instead of next year. At the same time, France is heading for over 4%. ??????? Who is living beyond their means????

This is what our minister for finance, Michael Noonan, had to say yesterday about the tax and spend policies followed by countries like France and Italy:

"The success now is not an accident of nature or an act of God, it's a direct consequence of the policies that were pursued and they were the right policies," Mr Noonan told Today with Sean O'Rourke on RTE Radio 1.

"If you look across Europe, the Baltic states, Germany, Denmark, Sweden all followed these kind of policies and they're growing well now at this stage. If you look at the countries that didn't follow, like Italy and France, who went down the road of tax and spend, they're floundering and they're still in difficulty.

- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ireland-must-learn-from-scandinavian-recovery-noonan-30560608.html#sthash.S64diD4t.dpuf

What we are hearing (from the FG side of Government and to some extent by Labour Tanaiste, Joan Burton) is the need for a careful approach - as opposed to signals from Minister Brendan Howlin in early August about room for public service pay cut reversals: http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0809/636109-howlin/

barneystinson

golfwallah wrote: »

This is what our minister for finance, Michael Noonan, had to say yesterday about the tax and spend policies followed by countries like France and Italy:
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ireland-must-learn-from-scandinavian-recovery-noonan-30560608.html#sthash.S64diD4t.dpuf

What we are hearing (from the FG side of Government and to some extent by Labour Tanaiste, Joan Burton) is the need for a careful approach - as opposed to signals from Minister Brendan Howlin in early August about room for public service pay cut reversals: http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0809/636109-howlin/

Did Brendan Howlin ever actually say he intended to reverse pay cuts before the expiry of the HRA, or was he talking about entering discussions next year well in advance of the expiry of the HRA in 2016, at which point in the absence of a further agreement the PS workforce will be expecting their money back... I had always assumed the latter.

If when the time comes our budget deficit is back under 3%, our unemployment rate is still falling and the economy is growing at any kind of rate, refusing to restore pay as was agreed will be a very tough sell.

fliball123

barneystinson wrote: »

Did Brendan Howlin ever actually say he intended to reverse pay cuts before the expiry of the HRA, or was he talking about entering discussions next year well in advance of the expiry of the HRA in 2016, at which point in the absence of a further agreement the PS workforce will be expecting their money back... I had always assumed the latter.

If when the time comes our budget deficit is back under 3%, our unemployment rate is still falling and the economy is growing at any kind of rate, refusing to restore pay as was agreed will be a very tough sell.

Howlin is irrelevent numerous FG ministers have come out and said that there is no room for PS pay rises above increments. They have offered an olive branch do in the form of tax cuts..so everyone gets a slice of the Pie..Good for FG going forward Labour trying to garner the support of the PS which wont work and has been shotdown...Time to move on guys the thread has run its course..All this is doing is furthering the hatred between ps and private sector

garancafan

fliball123 wrote: »

..All this is doing is furthering the hatred between ps and private sector

Does this mean that you will now desist?

fliball123

garancafan wrote: »

Does this mean that you will now desist?

Desist from what?

mariaalice

Brendan Howlin was VERY careful to say if pay is restored it will be under the HRA and that's all, now I am not sure if the HRA is a legally binding agreement, but if it is and the government don't honour it, then it would be open to the unions to legally peruse it on behalf of its members.

barneystinson

fliball123 wrote: »

Howlin is irrelevent numerous FG ministers have come out and said that there is no room for PS pay rises above increments. They have offered an olive branch do in the form of tax cuts..so everyone gets a slice of the Pie..Good for FG going forward Labour trying to garner the support of the PS which wont work and has been shotdown...Time to move on guys the thread has run its course..All this is doing is furthering the hatred between ps and private sector

What hatred? Do you hate the PS? Do the people working in the PS who you know in your real life, as opposed to your anonymised online one, know that you hate them?

Has anyone in FG,or Labour, actually said that they intend on not honouring the HRA?

You've also been conspicuously absent since I asked you what country's/countries' PS pay systems we should aspire to - or whether you expect Ireland to produce a system for paying our PS that is fundamentally different than the rest of the developed world?

fliball123

barneystinson wrote: »

What hatred? Do you hate the PS? Do the people working in the PS who you know in your real life, as opposed to your anonymised online one, know that you hate them?

Has anyone in FG,or Labour, actually said that they intend on not honouring the HRA?

You've also been conspicuously absent since I asked you what country's/countries' PS pay systems we should aspire to - or whether you expect Ireland to produce a system for paying our PS that is fundamentally different than the rest of the developed world?

Barney you only have to look at this thread to see the 2 fractions at war.

As for you question
Well Long answer = it was put back to you by a different poster that the countries which pay a high premium to their public sector are the piigs counties (Portugal,Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain) as in all the counties that needed bailouts or close to it, funny how that correlation which was brought to your attention was ignored by you. Check and see what countries which are run well such as Germany, see what their differential is....
Short Answer = one we can afford

I stopped looking on the thread as FG ministers such as Noonan have more or less said Howlin should get back in his box and there is no room to give pay rises above increments and that the deficit would be tackled and tax reductions would be implemented first

Vizzy

fliball123 wrote: »

I stopped looking on the thread as FG ministers such as Noonan have more or less said Howlin should get back in his box and there is no room to give pay rises above increments and that the deficit would be tackled and tax reductions would be implemented first

And do you now agree that increments should be paid(because Noonan has told Howlin "to get back in his box" as you put it) ?

Gumbo

fliball123 wrote: »

All this is doing is furthering the hatred between ps and private sector

fliball123 wrote: »

Barney you only have to look at this thread to see the 2 fractions at war.

The only fractions at war is about 4 or 5 people on this thread.
i dont see the hatred on the street, or in the eyes of the people i help every day, most of them are genuinely thankful.