What's so great about the Irish education system?

Louthdrog

SpaceTime wrote: »

I hope that setup where some teachers could 'ride the system' like that is being dealt with as it's really bad for students but it must be incredibly frustrating for other teachers who are doing their jobs with enthusiasm and dedication.

Even more frustrating for the hundreds of extremely talented and enthusiastic Irish teachers forced to move to the UK, Dubai etc. while these chancer's continue to sit on their generous pay packets.

I took a look at the staff list of my old school. Some very good teachers, but far far too many people who simply cannot teach or could not be bothered.

The standard of education in this country would improve quite quickly if an effort was made to remove under performing teachers and replace them with the numerous talented teachers already out there who cannot get a job. The financial savings for the country would also be quite nice!

Inspector Coptoor

Agree completely.
There's still a lot of dead wood in the system earning big money who do no co curricular activities while younger teachers are bursting themselves for half the wages in some cases and training teams, doing debating, musicals etc.

The hiring system is very frustrating also, it's not centralized and nepotism is rife

Saster123

srsly78 wrote: »

Can do better. Come see me after class to discuss paragraphs, sentence structure, tense and punctuation (especially the usage of the apostrophe).

Tells true story of how teacher corrects work to wrong spelling and bullying= Gets corrected by grammar nazi who misses the point of the story entirely to make themselves feel better.

I won't blame you, you are simply ignorant, but I hope correcting children on the internet rather than contributing to the discussion or seeing the point that I was trying to get across about the racism in schools and lack of education that the teachers have themselves. I imagine you probably are a teacher so thank you for proving my point about the lack of education and understanding in teachers so adequately.

To everyone else, as you can see this is what a lot of the teachers are like. So concerned with themselves that when a student is in trouble they will happily turn a blind eye. As long as you suffer in silence than they do not care one bit. The education system in Ireland can not improve until this issue is addressed, especially the racist elements.

ComputerKing

Saster123 wrote: »

The education system in Ireland can not improve until this issue is addressed, especially the racist elements.

Where does the idea that the education system is racist come from like. Up until the thread I'd never heard the system be called racist and I just can't see where this idea has come from.

Inspector Coptoor

Saster123 wrote: »

Tells true story of how teacher corrects work to wrong spelling and bullying= Gets corrected by grammar nazi who misses the point of the story entirely to make themselves feel better.

I won't blame you, you are simply ignorant, but I hope correcting children on the internet rather than contributing to the discussion or seeing the point that I was trying to get across about the racism in schools and lack of education that the teachers have themselves. I imagine you probably are a teacher so thank you for proving my point about the lack of education and understanding in teachers so adequately.

To everyone else, as you can see this is what a lot of the teachers are like. So concerned with themselves that when a student is in trouble they will happily turn a blind eye. As long as you suffer in silence than they do not care one bit. The education system in Ireland can not improve until this issue is addressed, especially the racist elements.

This is overly dramatic diatribe and is a slur on my profession when you say the majority behave like this.
How old are you?
How big is your sample size of interactions with teachers in this country to come out with this sort of drivel?

DM addict

I find this whole discussion quite interesting - as I am UK educated for primary and secondary, but came to Ireland for third level.

I've helped a couple of relative's kids out with essay skills etc for leaving cert - the questions and levels expected are significantly below the standard of A-Level, and much closer to what I would have done at GCSE - BUT on the other hand A-Levels are much more specialised, and my knowledge is based on my experiences 10+ years ago.

Cherrycola wrote: »

Is it true students can take their books into the exams in the UK?
I'm sure I read that somewhere.

On that note: when I did A-Levels, the only subject that I was aware of that allowed people to take books in was English Literature - and even then, not all exams. It facilitated students being able to do a closer textual examination of certain poems without needing to memorise quotes. It was a blessing and a curse, to be honest - there was very limited annotation permitted, so you could only really highlight or underline things. You could also end up spending half the exam looking for the right quote.

Saster123

RubyRoss wrote: »

Not sure how you know that.

Independent thought in itself does not mean much -it depends on the quality of the thinking. Some students present conspiracy babble as fact - which should be an instant fail – and some students use research to present thoughtful analysis.

Well for instance we has the 'press pass initiative' at our school and I won third place in opinion pieces. The article I used I only got a C for whereas the totally stupid article I wrote (on the topic of why reading is no longer something children do for fun) got an A because it's what the teacher was constantly talking about. The only reason my C article got sent was because she lost my A article. The fact it got me third in a national competition proves to me that the teachers are incapable of judging or they were deliberately putting my work down (which has happened before and had to be dealt with). That was the point I totally lost faith in the education system.

Inspector Coptoor

You would expect LC subjects to be below A level standard given an LC candidate studies 7 subjects over 2 years whereas an A level candidate studies 3.

How many subjects actually lend the levels to these essay style answers you all keep talking about?

English
Irish
History
Geography
Maybe business.

I can't think of anymore.

From my own point of view,
I did
English
Irish
Essays were involved

Chemistry
Biology
Accounting
Maths
Home Ec
French
essays not involved.

I don't understand how anyone can say that was "mostly" rote learning.

Candidates can choose subjects that lend themselves are rote learning if the wish but I couldn't stand that for the majority of my subjects

Inspector Coptoor

Saster123 wrote: »

Well for instance we has the 'press pass initiative' at our school and I won third place in opinion pieces. The article I used I only got a C for whereas the totally stupid article I wrote (on the topic of why reading is no longer something children do for fun) got an A because it's what the teacher was constantly talking about. The only reason my C article got sent was because she lost my A article. The fact it got me third in a national competition proves to me that the teachers are incapable of judging or they were deliberately putting my work down (which has happened before and had to be dealt with). That was the point I totally lost faith in the education system.

English is a very objective subject.
You really seem to enjoy the drama side of the subject.

Saster123

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

This is overly dramatic diatribe and is a slur on my profession when you say the majority behave like this.
How old are you?
How big is your sample size of interactions with teachers in this country to come out with this sort of drivel?

It is not a diatribe it is my personal experience of schools in Ireland. If you feel threatened or insulted than perhaps it is because you see the truth in what I say, but a teacher can never admit when they are wrong.
I don't feel comfortable revealing my age to you but I am a secondary school student.
As for the size of my sample I'll have to think, five schools... 12 teachers at the current... can't remember how many were at the other one except the first had 20 so let's make the average per school 16, 16 by 5 is...50+30=80 So we'll just say approximately 80 teachers. Let's throw you in to because you've alreadt demonstrated your lack of professionalism so 81. Which is a small sample but like I said this is not a diatribe it is my personal experience.

srsly78

Saster123 wrote: »

Tells true story of how teacher corrects work to wrong spelling and bullying= Gets corrected by grammar nazi who misses the point of the story entirely to make themselves feel better.

I won't blame you, you are simply ignorant, but I hope correcting children on the internet rather than contributing to the discussion or seeing the point that I was trying to get across about the racism in schools and lack of education that the teachers have themselves. I imagine you probably are a teacher so thank you for proving my point about the lack of education and understanding in teachers so adequately.

To everyone else, as you can see this is what a lot of the teachers are like. So concerned with themselves that when a student is in trouble they will happily turn a blind eye. As long as you suffer in silence than they do not care one bit. The education system in Ireland can not improve until this issue is addressed, especially the racist elements.

Much improved, 9/10. Good to see you learned from the previous example and did not repeat the same mistakes.

Saster123

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

English is a very objective subject.
You really seem to enjoy the drama side of the subject.

Haha life is about drama :-) . In all seriousness though it really does have to be addressed, it is something I do feel strongly about because my younger brothers will be going to these schools and they are simply not up to scratch at all.

Saster123

srsly78 wrote: »

Much improved, 9/10. Good to see you learned from the previous example and did not repeat the same mistakes.

I think the difference mainly comes from typing on a keyboard at 4pm rather than typing on my phone in bed. Also, I don't appreciate yo rating my work, but I understand that you will do it anyway since you don't have a valid point of your own. I know I'm not perfect and frankly I don't want to be, mistakes are how we learn and grow and if you are a teacher you should see that this behaviour is discouraging and detrimental to someone younger than you.

Inspector Coptoor

Saster123 wrote: »

It is not a diatribe it is my personal experience of schools in Ireland. If you feel threatened or insulted than perhaps it is because you see the truth in what I say, but a teacher can never admit when they are wrong.
I don't feel comfortable revealing my age to you but I am a secondary school student.
As for the size of my sample I'll have to think, five schools... 12 teachers at the current... can't remember how many were at the other one except the first had 20 so let's make the average per school 16, 16 by 5 is...50+30=80 So we'll just say approximately 80 teachers. Let's throw you in to because you've alreadt demonstrated your lack of professionalism so 81. Which is a small sample but like I said this is not a diatribe it is my personal experience.

Do I teach you?
I can almost guarantee you that I don't.
Therefore I am not being unprofessional in any way, shape or form so you can't "throw" me in your sample size which equates to 80/17000 teachers so 0.47% and I hardly think every one of those 80 teachers are crap and unprofessional.

You need to temper your vitriolic rant with a bit of logic as there are a couple of good points in there if you could express them
In a more adult, less dramatic fashion


I have no problem admitting in wrong, if I happen to be wrong.
Happens more often than I'd like but not in this instance.

Saster123

Dave0301 wrote: »

English is about being able to interpret literary works and back up your opinion with examples from your work. If you use the opinion and examples that your teacher has given you, you will have a firm starting base to work with.

If you have a different interpretation of the subject materiel you need to be able to back this up in a coherent and evidenced based manner. That is what the marks are awarded for. Having a different opinion is not penalised, expressing it poorly is.

I know that I am expressing myself fine because in the actual exams that are sent away for correction I will get an A. Also one year we had a teacher from Armagh (? not sure if that's how it's spelled but it's somewhere up north) and I had brilliant grades while he was there and he even went so far as to say at the parent teacher meeting that I was a joy to teach. This just doesn't add up to me and my only conclusion is that the teachers-at least in my area and the last 5 schools- are incompetent and need better training. Also, some are very abrasive in speech. At my current school there are a large amount of female teachers and I'm not trying to be vulgar when I say that you can tell when each one is on their period because it is an emotional roller coaster for the class. I think that is especially vexing, on top of exam pressures we have to pussyfoot around a hormonal teacher? I think that's out of order.

Inspector Coptoor

You have been to 5 secondary schools in Ireland and you're still in secondary school?

Saster123

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Do I teach you?
I can almost guarantee you that I don't.
Therefore I am not being unprofessional in any way, shape or form so you can't "throw" me in your sample size which equates to 80/17000 teachers so 0.47% and I hardly think every one of those 80 teachers are crap and unprofessional.

You need to temper your vitriolic rant with a bit of logic as there are a couple of good points in there if you could express them
In a more adult, less dramatic fashion


I have no problem admitting in wrong, if I happen to be wrong.
Happens more often than I'd like but not in this instance.

As I already said before it my opinion is based on personal experience so you can talk about how my experience counts for 0.47% but considering I was never going out to find each and every teacher , study with them for a period of time and rate them (which is absurd and I'm pretty sure physically impossible when you take into account the length of a school day/year). So condescending to me over that just makes you look... well it would if it were possible, even more unprofessional. Even if you don't teach me (though you sound arrogant and prickish so it's always a possibility but I think if you were from my school you'd have cottoned on not to **** with the only girl who can read properly and has an attitude problem when it comes to people condescending to her. Just saying) you should still retain some professionalism in your everyday life just because you aren't currently teaching. However, from what I have seen so far I don't think you have evolved that far to be able to restrain your more animal side.

Now if you would kindly let us get off this tangent and back to the main debate about education that would be nice because I am interested in what my fellow *students* have to say about the topic. Education is something I am passionate about and I have deep concerns about the poor quality of Irish secondary schools. Especially the teachers, I don't want my younger brothers to be subjected to the levels of emotional trauma that teachers dish out.

Inspector Coptoor

It's no wonder teachers speak to you in abrasive tones if that is they way you speak to them.

It's a two way street.
Give respect, get respect.

I am finished conversing with you as you seem to think you are some sort of unique and special snowflake.
News flash - you're not.
It must be some school populace if you are the only girl who can read properly.

But sure blame the secondary teachers and the primary teachers.
Never impart any part of the blame on the parents of the kids or indeed the kids themselves.

As they say on Dragon's Den, "I'm out"

Saster123

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

You have been to 5 secondary schools in Ireland and you're still in secondary school?

Yeah, we had a death in the family and had to move but then my mum didn't like the place so we moved again but then dad couldn't get a job and blah so we were the suitcase kids for a while, but fingers crossed to not having to move schools again. My only regret is doing transition year (had to move inbetween and the next school didn't have a ty program, it was a catastrophe I will tell you).

Dave0301

Saster123 wrote: »

I know that I am expressing myself fine because in the actual exams that are sent away for correction I will get an A.

How do you know that? How many state exams have you achieved an A grade in?

Saster123 wrote: »

Also one year we had a teacher from Armagh (? not sure if that's how it's spelled but it's somewhere up north) and I had brilliant grades while he was there and he even went so far as to say at the parent teacher meeting that I was a joy to teach. This just doesn't add up to me and my only conclusion is that the teachers-at least in my area and the last 5 schools- are incompetent and need better training.

How do you know that this is the case, and that the quality of your work has not become sub standard? I am only raising this point, as you seem intent on blaming everyone but yourself, perhaps your attitude problem with your teachers is causing you to blind yourself to their help?

Saster123 wrote: »

Also, some are very abrasive in speech. At my current school there are a large amount of female teachers and I'm not trying to be vulgar when I say that you can tell when each one is on their period because it is an emotional roller coaster for the class. I think that is especially vexing, on top of exam pressures we have to pussyfoot around a hormonal teacher? I think that's out of order.

That is a very disparaging comment to make about any female, teacher or not. Ever think about the flip side of that statement? How many hormonal teenagers does the average teacher deal with everyday

Saster123

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

It's no wonder teachers speak to you in abrasive tones if that is they way you speak to them.

It's a two way street.
Give respect, get respect.

I am finished conversing with you as you seem to think you are some sort of unique and special snowflake.
News flash - you're not.
It must be some school populace if you are the only girl who can read properly.

But sure blame the secondary teachers and the primary teachers.
Never impart any part of the blame on the parents of the kids or indeed the kids themselves.

As they say on Dragon's Den, "I'm out"

Sure insult the parents of my classmates on your way out, really brave. Teachers are paid to teach, parents help in ways, but it is your job as a teacher to do that. Blame the parents, blame the children, blame me if you like while you cry about pay cuts but deep down inside you know you are the one failing at your duty.

I can't believe you would even think to blame the children you are teaching, that is ridiculous. It's your job to make them want to learn and teach them!

You are right it is a two way street, teacher know not to speak abusively to me anymore, I made a point of pulling up the most racist teacher as she ranted at me and an innocent English girl in front of all the parents so she could finally be brought to justice. I am not afraid to stand up to this injustice and when teachers respect me we get along just fine, that's why I'm the one they ask to help the special needs children, that's why I'm the one who gets elected student council. Teachers have to earn respect by not being the first ones to disrespect student. You are human, not some superior entity and if you are wrong I will fight you tooth and nail because I have see what happens if you don't. People have died when teachers abuse their power, you need to check yourself before you cause another death like Oakley Barker's.

Dave0301

Saster123 wrote: »

Sure insult the parents of my classmates on your way out, really brave. Teachers are paid to teach, parents help in ways, but it is your job as a teacher to do that. Blame the parents, blame the children, blame me if you like while you cry about pay cuts but deep down inside you know you are the one failing at your duty.

There is actually a vast body of academic research that backs up the idea that parents have an integral role in encouraging the development and progression of their child's education.

Although I equally acknowledge that poor teaching can have a negative influence also.

Saster123

Dave0301 wrote: »

How do you know that? How many state exams have you achieved an A grade in?



How do you know that this is the case, and that the quality of your work has not become sub standard? I am only raising this point, as you seem intent on blaming everyone, but yourself, perhaps your attitude problem with your teachers is causing you to blind yourself to their help?



That is a very disparaging comment to make about any female, teacher or not. Ever think about the flip side of that statement? How many hormonal teenagers does the average teacher deal with everyday

All A's except for C in HL maths and HL Fench and B in Science (also exempt from Irish so take that out)
^Juinior Cert
Transition year was Distiction for the whole year... I got a D in Music then it was All A's except C in chemistry and material technology wood and B in religion/health/c.s.p.e and I think I got a B in art that year or maybe it was a B in physics and an A in art? (either way same amount of points.)

As for how I know my quality of work is not decreasing, I use courses on cafetalk and the like to make sure I'm up to scratch and my friend in Cambridge tests me on physics. I do have a whole system set up so that the fact I'm losing out at school doesn't hurt my education. I even have French and Japanese skype pals to practice my LC languages with. I know that I'm not falling behind and I am determined never to let myself fall behind.

As for the female teacher thing, I literally do not mean this as an insult but it really is out of hand. The majority of our teachers are female and the mood swings have become such an issue that at the start of the day students tell each other which female they have to be on ''red' alert' for. I think that is unacceptable and as a female I understand that pms can cause you to be grumpy but I don't think we are meant to turn downright psychotic for a week. I don't think female teachers should be able to use their vaginas as an excuse for misbehaviour. If it was a male teacher then they would immediately be in trouble and I think that is severely unfair.

Jogathon

Okay, I'd love this to get back to a balanced debate and not be so focused on personal bad experiences. Some great points were made about strengths and weaknesses in our educational system.

With regards to the costs of our primary education, in my school we try to keep costs down as much as we can. Most of our books from 3rd class upwards are on a book rental scheme. It is very difficult to do this for the younger classes as they need to write into their books. Each child is asked to pay €50 in September. My third class have to buy three books at a tenner each, a packet of copies and some sum copies and their stationery. In total, that is €100, maybe €120 if you include their school bag and a few cardboard folders. I think that is a bit of a bargain considering the amount of books that they have access to over the year.

The uniform costs are also exaggerated at times in the media. School jumpers and track suits are passed on through siblings and neighbours. Plain white collared t-shirts are cheap and they'd have to buy runners and shoes for their children regardless. Why they need brand new shoes for school is a mystery to me!

Saster123

Dave0301 wrote: »

There is actually a vast body of academic research that backs up the idea that parents have an integral role in encouraging the development and progression of their child's education.

Although I equally acknowledge that poor teaching can have a negative influence also.

Right alright I can see that, I was just shocked that a teacher would assume to blame the students and parents more than anything... I think we need to revise how we teach in this country. Inspire students to enjoy learning rather than forcing it down their throats. I think that was the best thing my primary school teacher taught me, that learning can be fun and knowledge is a treasure. There aren't enough teachers who can strike a cord like that in a student and we need them.

Inspector Coptoor

I think the whole point of this thread was for people to critically assess (not dramatically assess) the Irish education system.

I'm assuming that it was aimed at people who have experienced the system in its entirety from primary, through secondary, tertiary and possibly even quaternary education.

For someone to come on and hijack the thread when they are only half way through second level education AND making sweeping and grandiose generalisations doesn't critically assess the system here and is doing nothing for the thread or the people who have an interest in the topic.

I am not saying your opinion doesn't matter Saster, I'm simply saying you aren't far enough down the line to critically assess the system in its entirety.

It's refreshing to hear a student has back up plans in place to make up for an under performing teacher or two.
That was what I was getting at when I mentioned blaming students.
You can bring a horse to water but can't make it drink.
You could be the best teacher in the world, but if you have a student who doesn't give a continental about the subject you are teaching, very little progress will be made even if the class is all singing and all dancing.

And this is the point you are missing.
You are still going through the system so you see it as them vs us thing.
Teachers are on your side. I don't know you but I'm on your side and wish you well in your exams.
A school is MEANT to be a community where teachers, students and ancillary staff work together for the betterment of everyone while providing an education to the students.

I'm glad to say that I work in a school where that is the case

Mardy Bum

Saster123 wrote: »

I think that is unacceptable and as a female I understand that pms can cause you to be grumpy but I don't think we are meant to turn downright psychotic for a week. I don't think female teachers should be able to use their vaginas as an excuse for misbehaviour. If it was a male teacher then they would immediately be in trouble and I think that is severely unfair.

Each post is getting progressively more insulting and generalised to both male and female teachers and indeed some are directly insulting posters.

Each post displays a complete obliviousness to this fact which is worrying.

Each post displays a level of ignorance which is unacceptable even for someone who is still in school.

Each post's tone is horrifically selfish and whiny and does nothing for your argument.

Saster123

Jogathon wrote: »

Okay, I'd love this to get back to a balanced debate and not be so focused on personal bad experiences. Some great points were made about strengths and weaknesses in our educational system.

With regards to the costs of our primary education, in my school we try to keep costs down as much as we can. Most of our books from 3rd class upwards are on a book rental scheme. It is very difficult to do this for the younger classes as they need to write into their books. Each child is asked to pay €50 in September. My third class have to buy three books at a tenner each, a packet of copies and some sum copies and their stationery. In total, that is €100, maybe €120 if you include their school bag and a few cardboard folders. I think that is a bit of a bargain considering the amount of books that they have access to over the year.

The uniform costs are also exaggerated at times in the media. School jumpers and track suits are passed on through siblings and neighbours. Plain white collared t-shirts are cheap and they'd have to buy runners and shoes for their children regardless. Why they need brand new shoes for school is a mystery to me!

Good Idea,
Yeah I think the uniform prices are pretty extreme, I usually buy my uniforms at the charity shop. Do the schools get a commission? Perhaps the price is okay if some of it is going towards school funding. That's also a really good price for books, last year my book rentals were about 250 and probably a bit more in books, folders and various stationary. Buses are quite expensive too and the price fluctuates each year which makes it hard to prepare. we've had years where it's been 150 and years when it's been 350.

Paramite Pie

Louthdrog wrote: »

I spent most of primary school learning Irish and religion. We did maths and English too obviously but not once did we look at science. It was a rare treat to do history or geography.

My primary school had very little focus on religion (other than communion & confirmation years). In the morning we did Irish (taught with the projector & slides/images) and then we did Maths and English grammar/handwriting (my school was anal about handwriting!!). After lunch History was a common subject and geography consisted of merely learning names of rivers, mountains and counties. In 6th class we learned French twice(?) a week.

I went to a very good Primary school but some of my cousins went to horrible schools. There needs to be a better standard, I got a great education with more than 30 students in my class compared to my cousins who had less than 10 students per class.

Tail Docker wrote: »

The irish primary/secondary education is crap. My three have been through it and I have mine and my wifes education abroad to compare it to. Crap. Thin history, no real chemistry, feck all PE and rubbish on languages and computing. I have a lot of nieces and nephews also and from what I have seen, they regurgitated narrow facts to meet an exam criteria - that's not an education.

No, the school you went to is crap. Mine was excellent overall. I defininately agree about Computing however. Languages were well thought in my school with Language Labs where every student could listen, pause and rewind the tapes at their own pace. Also the History Curriculum is very good. (did any of your kids do History for the LC??)

I did History for Leaving Cert and it was very in depth. We had to do long Eassays (up to 5 A4 pages) on many topics as well as research our own Topic that was not on the Curriculum (which contributed to 20% of our LC score). That's hardly 'thin'. Many students in my school avoided history because it was so much work (3hr exam).

Here's an exam paper from 2006 and some sample questions;

http://examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/2006/LC004ALPO00EV.pdf

Topic 5 : European retreat from empire and the aftermath, 1945 – 1990
Answer one of the following questions:

1. To what extent did Britain contribute to tensions in the Middle East, 1945 – 1956?
(100)
2. Why did Katanga secede from the Congo and what were the results of that secession, 1960 - 1965? (100)
3. Have the former colonial powers helped or hindered post-colonial Africa in
dealing with its social and economic problems?
Explain your answer. (100)
4. How did race relations become a major issue in Britain and/or France in the period,
1945 – 1990? (100)

Each question is an essay answer. Overall, the paper is very broad and has a large international focus, from the Congo to US involvement in Vietman/Korea. The questions on Ireland cover political, social and economic issues. Again that's not very 'thin'.

SpaceTime

Abandoning thread!
It seems to have turned into a bit of a virtual fist fight.