Why are Gaelic Games so middle class??

freddiek

randd1 wrote: »

So inter county players getting degrees makes the GAA middle class? Here was me thinking that they were getting an education.

And if they do get help to go to college, maybe it's because the GAA see the value of promoting a culture of sending players to college to get an education as it's more likely to keep them at home to stay part of the organization than lose them altogether. Would the FAI ever do that? Can't blame an amateur organization for helping out its players.

the other way round. They get the degrees because they are middle class. is it a shock to you that better-off people get more of an education than working class lads?

mollymaloney

I think that all sorts of people play at club level-- from varying backgrounds. Most I would reckon begin at primary school. However, if a person graduates to senior inter county, a huge dedication in time and committment is involved. It would be difficult to see how a plasterer,, farmer, guy on a bin lorry could get the time to go training three times a week, spend the winter's evenings in the gym and play a challenge match on Sunday morning,. I don't think we'll ever see a Noel Hickey or a Bobby Ryan play inter county again. That might be part of the reason why so many county players now are teachers, sales people etc

kksaints

randd1 wrote: »

So inter county players getting degrees makes the GAA middle class? Here was me thinking that they were getting an education.

And if they do get help to go to college, maybe it's because the GAA see the value of promoting a culture of sending players to college to get an education as it's more likely to keep them at home to stay part of the organization than lose them altogether. Would the FAI ever do that? Can't blame an amateur organization for helping out its players.

No but the LOI clubs do. Pats have a scholarship with NUIM, Sligo with Sligo IT, Bohs had one with Blanchardstown IT and sure UCD have a club in the league itself.

laoch na mona

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Very little working class people in rural Ireland where most GAA is played, simple as.

are you high?:p

class divisions don't stop at the edge of town, there is a rural working class

i'd say it would be down to history, all forms of nationalism after the revolutionary period became very middle class. this might have had some effect on who played GAA

but I'd hesitate to say that the GAA is an overly middle class organisation

Warper

freddiek wrote: »

watching a LOI soccer match i got to thinking about the contrast between soccer players in Ireland and those who play gaelic football/hurling.

it seems these days nearly every inter-county player has a university degree and/or a professional-type job. Why should that be the case for gaelic games when its clearly not the case for soccer players??

I never thought that gaelic games were class-based sports before but perhaps the trend has gone that way over the years. certainly not to the extent that Rugby is but i'd wager that most inter-county players come from solidly middle class backgrounds.

people from a soccer background may have traditionally looked on gaelic games as sports for teachers, gardai and farmers etc. but I certainly don't see much working class people playing our games these days. definitely not at the Inter-county level

people from large towns and obviously cities are under-represented on County teams. this is not just because of the Games being traditionally grounded in rural areas but also I believe failure to get more working-class kids involved.

What absolute crap

Vunderground

freddiek wrote: »

why is there never any trouble between the fans not like in the working-class soccer eh?

The fans have plenty of fights to watch on the gaa pitch
- no need to start their own

rpurfield

kksaints wrote: »

No but the LOI clubs do. Pats have a scholarship with NUIM, Sligo with Sligo IT, Bohs had one with Blanchardstown IT and sure UCD have a club in the league itself.

Drogheda United have one with Dundalk IT too. Back when the league had a few professional clubs some of the players used the time professionalism gave them to study part time, which is also something a lot of rugby players do. I reckon a lot more people go to college in Ireland now compared to say twenty to thirty years ago and hence this is why more GAA players are being called middle class here.

kksaints

rpurfield wrote: »

Drogheda United have one with Dundalk IT too. Back when the league had a few professional clubs some of the players used the time professionalism gave them to study part time, which is also something a lot of rugby players do. I reckon a lot more people go to college in Ireland now compared to say twenty to thirty years ago and hence this is why more GAA players are being called middle class here.

You would think that Dundalk would have the scholarship with Dundalk IT.

I remember that Sporting Fingal had a scholarship with DCU aswell when they were around.

rpurfield

kksaints wrote: »

You would think that Dundalk would have the scholarship with Dundalk IT.

I remember that Sporting Fingal had a scholarship with DCU aswell when they were around.

I would think so myself, though I couldn't tell you for definite I'm sure there is someone from up that direction that could fill us in.

Another thing to add to this is that with the jobs market being how it is now, people are needing more and more qualifications. The best description of it I heard was "degree inflation", the days of walking out of the leaving cert and straight into a handy job for life because your good at hurling or football is long gone.

Al Monds

This is a very interesting topic but also a complex one.
People play games that they can.
Its often not a choice but whatever is available.
I played Gaelic, rugby and soccer for the same school.
I did so without thinking.
I would have played on the dish washing team if they had one.
The games may have had an origin in social history.
In the meantime our society has evolved independently of sport.
We are where we are and we play what we can.

The Letheram

This is a fairly recent development imo. It is to do with the fact that about 70% of school leavers afair now undertake some form of 3rd level education.

nice_guy80

The Letheram wrote: »

This is a fairly recent development imo. It is to do with the fact that about 70% of school leavers afair now undertake some form of 3rd level education.

I would argue that Gaelic Games in third level is badly organised and is only targetted at the elite athletes and does very little for the average club player who would like to do some training and play a few games.

CrabRevolution

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I would argue that Gaelic Games in third level is badly organised and is only targetted at the elite athletes and does very little for the average club player who would like to do some training and play a few games.

Wasnt my experience by any means. I have studied in 2 big colleges and each one had 3 freshers football teams, then 4 senior football teams, plus 2/3 hurling ones. I'm in DIT at the moment and they even seem to have a team composed entirely of foreigners who compete in a blitz. The GAA in colleges is very inclusive and seen as a good way to make friends.

Also when I'm training/playing with the club at home I see lads who wouldnt be the most dedicated and only make our clubs junior hurling team coming back with gear and starting jerseys from their colleges around the country. You do be thinking the college mustn't be the best if that lad is midfield for them.

There's a strict enough set of rules about playing for college, stipulating the minimum number of credits, rules on transferring college, on freshers, on repeats etc. Plus there's a cap on the number of sport scholarship players you can play. These rules are all there to prevent an american style situation where you're in college only to play, which the academic focus a distant second.

emmetlego

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I would argue that Gaelic Games in third level is badly organised and is only targetted at the elite athletes and does very little for the average club player who would like to do some training and play a few games.

Disagree

While there is an emphasis on the elite GAA players in UCD, DCU etc, they still cater for the inter-junior standard player also, they just don't get the same training benefits etc, much like the club and county scene.

Orizio

I'd say its fair to say Freddiek has a unique understanding of the word 'middle class'.

sydthebeat

There is absolutely no co relation between any class system and inclusiveness in gaa games versus other sports


Ludicrous statement.

homerjay2005

in all fairness to the OP, i can see where he is coming from.

i guess its a historical and cultural thing.

sydthebeat wrote: »

There is absolutely no co relation between any class system and inclusiveness in gaa games versus other sports


Ludicrous statement.

ah come off it, i know its a sweeping generalisation but generally GAA tend to be middle ground in terms of status in society, for want of a better phrase. Rugby tends to be a higher class game and soccer tends to be for the lower classes. of course theres 100000s of exceptions, some people will support all 3, but its a good basis to start from and explains a good portion of each support base. personally im am big into soccer and gaa as i think they represent me, but i think Rugby is a sport that epitomizes alot about certain aspects of Irish society that doesnt represent me.

Dickie10

not much class divide in rural ireland and no real working class so GAA prob seems more middle class, but its just the fact that it has no working class affiliation because where it is based has zero working classes. very hard to find a dublin player from inside the M50 whos parent or both are not originally from rural ireland

Stoner

Dickie10 wrote:

no working class affiliation because where it is based has zero working classes. very hard to find a dublin player from inside the M50 whos parent or both are not originally from rural ireland

Tbh this is not true plenty of people that this does not apply to, me for example. I went to school and my team was based and populated with inner city players some had parents from outside Dublin most didn't. I could still name them now. 1 to 15. Some were from generations of traders and Dockers.

I'd argue that the roots of the GAA are working class since so many landless people were involved in it when it was established. Some people have just been convinced that there is a class below them and spend their lives trying to convince eachother that they are correct.

I also struggle with the concept that rural Ireland has zero representation from a working class base.

I had a grandfather from carlow he was certainly working class, arrived in Dublin to work, a very basic education, zero land in carlow just two strong hands.

I had a second grandparent from rural Ireland raised in Dublin from the age of one because his patents couldn't afford to feed him. That type of situation was kept quiet but common.
A good friend of mine struggled beside me in the back line had a parent from limerick, arrived in Dublin at 16 with a fiver to work, nothing for him in limerick, that might not sound great but its what those guys said themselves.

Indeed what many people struggle with is that most of the people raised in rural Ireland that ended up in Dublin, went there with an average to poor education to Work.

The GAA was founded in 1884 ? the land league was busy around that time too trying to get land for Irish people, so really when it started up it was played mostly by Roman Catholic people who worked for others, either on their land or for them in some capacity, poor people from a second class society at that time, a working class base.

My taxes pay for plenty of grants and welfare for people in Dublin and for some farmers, the only team sport i ever played (very badly) was hurling.
It wouldnt sit well with me if someone on the dole/grants living outside Dublin considered themselves "above me" as I have always been a net contributor since I started to work and plenty of rural people are a drain on the country, just like plenty urban people are.

Tbh playing sport is very important, good people realise that and encourage their kids to take part, that imo is the common denominator.
John Giles went to my school, if you read his book you'll see how he was "forced" to play for the football team, it drove him from the game.
The basis of this thread and some of the posts in it still resonate with the concept that the GAA is a rural sport and that other sports are "working class" it's a flawed concept with no basis since most rural people that settled in Dublin were working class. They arrived in at the bottom to work up to something.

Drummerboy2

I think the fact that there are GAA scholarships in many universities helps a lot. Look at Philly McMahon from a working class background and he went to DCU along with a good few of his Ballymun team mates.

However, I do think the GAA could do more in working class areas to promote their games. Heaven forbid if they ever do, they will have to split the county in 4

seachto7

What do you mean by working class? Is there no working class in GAA heartlands?

seachto7

freddiek wrote:

why is there never any trouble between the fans not like in the working-class soccer eh?

Hard to say seeing as hooligan culture is alien to us in Ireland. Probably similar to Australia where they wouldn't have a history of firms or hooligans. But you get people who will ape the UK hooligan

Stoner

Well they certainly left tallaght behind initially a very big mistake, now leaving the games with huge ground to make up, considering the size of the population there.
Indeed football has always been stronger in the northside of Dublin the so called working class side of the city. Can something similar be said of Cork City and Hurling, Blackrock? I worked there years ago and it reminded me a lot of Stoneybatter in how run down it was, but they produce hurlers

nice_guy80

plenty of working class clubs in rural Ireland.

there are a lot of areas in rural Ireland with high unemployment and poor educational success rates - eg progression to third level and further studies

TheNap

One major issue is always overlooked when it comes to GAA in working class areas.

Most lads who come from these areas dont have the mentality to play a physical sport like gaelic or hurling.

Go watch a soccer match in Dublin for instance. The players dont like being touched at all and lose the head for the smallest of reasons.

Imagine them on GAA field getting hit hard every few minutes. It just wouldnt happen.

TheNap

TheNap wrote: »

One major issue is always overlooked when it comes to GAA in working class areas.

Most lads who come from these areas dont have the mentality to play a physical sport like gaelic or hurling.

Go watch a soccer match in Dublin for instance. The players dont like being touched at all and lose the head for the smallest of reasons.

Imagine them on GAA field getting hit hard every few minutes. It just wouldnt happen.

By the way GAA ( mostly gaelic mind you ) has never been as popular as it is in Dublin at the moment. Its huge. The amount of kids playing these days dwarfs that of 20 years ago.

armaghlad

I've only ever come across one "middle class" club and that is a club in a wealthy part of south Belfast that is only 10/20 years old. The reason for this is because its members are mainly professionals/students who have settled in Belfast from other counties for work.

I generally find GAA clubs to be made up of a mixture of backgrounds, I've never come across a club that is exclusively made up of one "class" bar the aforementioned. This applies to both urban and rural and is probably why GAA is better than soccer or rugby

nice_guy80

armaghlad wrote: »

I've only ever come across one "middle class" club and that is a club in a wealthy part of south Belfast that is only 10/20 years old. The reason for this is because its members are mainly professionals/students who have settled in Belfast from other counties for work.

I generally find GAA clubs to be made up of a mixture of backgrounds, I've never come across a club that is exclusively made up of one "class" bar the aforementioned. This applies to both urban and rural and is probably why GAA is better than soccer or rugby

suburban clubs at the edge of towns would by nature would be more middle class due to the demographics of the people who settle and buy houses in those areas.

there are GAA clubs in the likes of Kilkenny city, Waterford city etc that would be quite working class

armaghlad

nice_guy80 wrote: »

suburban clubs at the edge of towns would by nature would be more middle class due to the demographics of the people who settle and buy houses in those areas.

there are GAA clubs in the likes of Kilkenny city, Waterford city etc that would be quite working class

Maybe it's different in the north. My own town has 5 GAA clubs (four football, one hurling). All four football clubs would count the working class estates as their strongholds; but would also draw much of their membership from the more middle class areas. There is also no parish rule; which means no matter what part of town you come from you can play for whoever. Also worth noting my town is one of the more socially/economically disadvantaged in the north and would be divided along sectarian lines.

seachto7

TheNap wrote:

Most lads who come from these areas dont have the mentality to play a physical sport like gaelic or hurling.

Go watch a soccer match in Dublin for instance. The players dont like being touched at all and lose the head for the smallest of reasons.

Rubbish. How do you explain the fights that often break out at club GAA games then? That's some mentality.