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Childcare costs

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  • 07-08-2014 2:00pm
    #1
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,324 CMod ✭✭✭✭


    I just started looking at creche for my little boy. The cost is astronomical (€1,000 per month). It is a real disincentive to go back to work.


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    #2
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Good affordable childcare is so important so that both parents can continue to work. I hope the men reading this thread realise this and make it an issue the government need to deal with as a matter of urgency.


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    #3
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,617 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    fits wrote: »
    Good affordable childcare is so important so that both parents can continue to work. I hope the men reading this thread realise this and make it an issue the government need to deal with as a matter of urgency.

    How do you expect the men reading this thread to do that? Shouldn't women get involved as well?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #4
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Of course! But childcare is often seen as a womens issue when In fact the lack of affordable childcare has negative consequences for both women and men.


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    #5
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,324 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    fits wrote: »
    Good affordable childcare is so important so that both parents can continue to work. I hope the men reading this thread realise this and make it an issue the government need to deal with as a matter of urgency.

    It is seen as a women's issue because men are prevented by legislation from playing an active role in the parenting and development of their children unless they are very wealthy. The government won't deal with this as it only effects the professional classes which the govt seem to think have unlimited reserves to pay for everything. Blaming men for this seems a little strange.


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    #6
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    It is seen as a women's issue because men are prevented by legislation from playing an active role in the parenting and development of their children unless they are very wealthy. The government won't deal with this as it only effects the professional classes which the govt seem to think have unlimited reserves to pay for everything. Blaming men for this seems a little strange.

    Who is blaming men for anything? I am just asking that men recognise it as an important issue for men as well as women. It is in everyones interests that women stay in the workforce and men take more parenting duties eg. Paternity leave.

    Also how are men prevented by legislation in taking an active role and what has that got to do with my point? I honestly cannot follow your logic at all.


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    #7
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,617 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    fits wrote: »
    Who is blaming men for anything? I am just asking that men recognise it as an important issue for men as well as women. It is in everyones interests that women stay in the workforce and men take more parenting duties eg. Paternity leave.

    Also how are men prevented by legislation in taking an active role and what has that got to do with my point? I honestly cannot follow your logic at all.

    I was chatted to some of my former colleagues and what they said about the costs of childcare was shocking to say the least.

    Most Dads I would think recognise that it's an issue that needs examining. Your post specifically said that men should be looking to get it sorted without mentioning women. Traditionally, women are seen as the primary caregivers regarding children which I suppose is the reason most courts prefer to side with Mum in custody settlements and the like.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #8
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    No statutory paternity leave makes it financially difficult for more men to take more time off.

    I do agree it is an area both sexes would benefit from. I don't think it is good for fathers, mothers and indeed children that women take the most time off by far to look after children.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #9
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I was chatted to some of my former colleagues and what they said about the costs of childcare was shocking to say the least.

    Most Dads I would think recognise that it's an issue that needs examining. Your post specifically said that men should be looking to get it sorted without mentioning women. Traditionally, women are seen as the primary caregivers regarding children which I suppose is the reason most courts prefer to side with Mum in custody settlements and the like.

    Indeed, just look at the thread about a father not getting custody on the main page. As long as men take so little time off for children, courts will give main custody to the mother. I think that has to be recognised and step made to address that, as well as fathers getting more rights.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #10
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭fits


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    . Your post specifically said that men should be looking to get it sorted without mentioning women.

    Because this is the gentlemens club and while there are lots of threads about fathers rights, there are few enough about childcare, paternity leave etc. Greater opportunities for women in workforce and financially, and better fathers rights and family law are two sides of the same coin.


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    #11
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,324 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    fits wrote: »
    Also how are men prevented by legislation in taking an active role and what has that got to do with my point? I honestly cannot follow your logic at all.
    There is no paternity leave whereas the woman gets 6 months maternity. This forces a woman to be the primary carer in the early formative stage so makes the decisions on feeding, nap times, play, routines, solid food introduction. This time also gets the baby used to seeing the mother as its primary carer as when Daddy gets in from work it is already bed time for a baby. Hence the myth about a mothers bond being most important to the child (a myth that gets wide credence in legal circles).

    The only option a man has is to take unpaid leave. Couple the expense of this with the recent reductions in maternity benefit and rising tax burden you can see that men are being prevented from having anything but a peripheral presence in a childs life.


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    #12
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,617 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    fits wrote: »
    Because this is the gentlemens club and while there are lots of threads about fathers rights, there are few enough about childcare, paternity leave etc. Greater opportunities for women in workforce and financially, and better fathers rights and family law are two sides of the same coin.

    Oh, I completely agree with you regarding childcare and women's rights. I just inferred that you thought it should be just men fighting for better childcare. Oops!

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #13
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,324 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    fits wrote: »
    Because this is the gentlemens club and while there are lots of threads about fathers rights, there are few enough about childcare, paternity leave etc. Greater opportunities for women in workforce and financially, and better fathers rights and family law are two sides of the same coin.
    Feel free to start one. Looking at a creche for junior at the moment facing a monthly bill of €1,000. The dole is €814 per month so to make it worth my while going back to work I need to earn a net monthly income of €1,814 (round up to €2,000 when you consider travel and lunches etc). I can see why a parent decides to stay at home.


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    #14
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    There is no paternity leave whereas the woman gets 6 months maternity. This forces a woman to be the primary carer in the early formative stage so makes the decisions on feeding, nap times, play, routines, solid food introduction. This time also gets the baby used to seeing the mother as its primary carer as when Daddy gets in from work it is already bed time for a baby. Hence the myth about a mothers bond being most important to the child (a myth that gets wide credence in legal circles).

    The only option a man has is to take unpaid leave. Couple the expense of this with the recent reductions in maternity benefit and rising tax burden you can see that men are being prevented from having anything but a peripheral presence in a childs life.

    That's what I said! No argument there.

    Btw I live and work in Finland. Three of my male colleagues have taken paternity leave in last 18 months. One six months, the others two months. I know it works and I know it even things out. The men can actually take close to 50% duties. Childcare there is max 300 euro a month also and is extremely high quality. All of the mums I know work full time, why wouldn't they. Some difference to Ireland.
    Don't know how fathers rights are but probably more even as a result.


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    #15
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,617 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    fits wrote: »
    That's what I said! No argument there.

    Btw I live and work in Finland. Three of my male colleagues have taken paternity leave in last 18 months. One six months, the others two months. I know it works and I know it even things out. The men can actually take close to 50% duties. Childcare there is max 300 euro a month also and is extremely high quality. All of the mums I know work full time, why wouldn't they. Some difference to Ireland.
    Don't know how fathers rights are but probably more even as a result.

    Scandinavia is a world leader in gender equality from what I know so it makes sense that they've thought it through. In the UK and Ireland, the traditional model is still semi-prevalent but it is being thankfully eroded.

    Out of curiosity, what's it like working there? I'd be a bit worried by what some Swedish politicians have been saying regarding "man taxes" and the like but that's another thread.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #16
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭fits


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Scandinavia is a world leader in gender equality from what I know so it makes sense that they've thought it through. In the UK and Ireland, the traditional model is still semi-prevalent but it is being thankfully eroded.

    As a result of a very strong feminist movement ��

    But anyway we should all work on this together its in everyone's interests.


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    #17
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,617 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    fits wrote: »
    As a result of a very strong feminist movement ��

    But anyway we should all work on this together its in everyone's interests.

    Feminism tend to focus solely on women's issues is fair enough given the fact that's it's a mono-gendered term. It's probably at least part of the reason though there's a high rate of Scandinavians who get educated to third level if I'm right.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #18
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭fits


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, what's it like working there? I'd be a bit worried by what some Swedish politicians have been saying regarding "man taxes" and the like but that's another thread.

    Its great. I work in Finland and live in Ireland (as much as I can) In just need to get myself some sort of machine that'll beam me over and back.
    never heard of man taxes. Sweden is quite different to Finland though. Very different.
    "Sweden talk like socialists and act like capitalists. Finland talk like capitalists and act like socialists"


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    #19
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,617 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    fits wrote: »
    Its great. I work in Finland and live in Ireland. In just need to get myself some sort of machine that'll beam me over and back.
    never heard of man taxes. Sweden is quite different to Finland though. Very different.
    "Sweden talk like socialists and act like capitalists. Finland talk like capitalists and act like socialists"

    Never heard that one.

    The "man tax" thing appeared on the sexism thread here a while ago. Probably a vocal minority.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #20
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,324 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Ireland comes close to the top in this article

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/21/child-care-costs-compared-britain

    We had to be good at something :pac:


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    #21
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Feel free to start one. Looking at a creche for junior at the moment facing a monthly bill of €1,000. The dole is €814 per month so to make it worth my while going back to work I need to earn a net monthly income of €1,814 (round up to €2,000 when you consider travel and lunches etc). I can see why a parent decides to stay at home.
    You don't get the dole to mind children.


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    #22
    LordNorbury
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭LordNorbury


    RainyDay wrote: »
    You don't get the dole to mind children.

    The figures don't lie either though.


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    #23
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,171 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    And you can easily get it whilst looking for a job that pays €2500 a month or more.


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    #24
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    LordNorbury wrote: »
    The figures don't lie either though.

    They do if you include the social welfare fraud of claiming the dole while looking after children.


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    #25
    LordNorbury
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭LordNorbury


    RainyDay wrote: »
    They do if you include the social welfare fraud of claiming the dole while looking after children.

    I don't get the point you are making. Are you saying that it is fraud if you are unemployed and minding your kids at home while claiming social welfare?


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    #26
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,324 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    RainyDay wrote: »
    They do if you include the social welfare fraud of claiming the dole while looking after children.
    It is only fraud if you are on jobseekers and not actively seeking work. Anyway it is beside the point. The figures were the relevant part.


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    #27
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    It is only fraud if you are on jobseekers and not actively seeking work. Anyway it is beside the point. The figures were the relevant part.

    It is fraud if you are not available for work.

    Building the dole into your childminding cost calculations is planning for fraud.


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    #28
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,171 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Or realism.

    When childcare costs so much and welfare is so high, it's very understandable for people to be on jobseekers yet unavailable for work that pays beneath what they need to replace that welfare level.


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    #29
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,324 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    RainyDay wrote: »
    It is fraud if you are not available for work.

    Building the dole into your childminding cost calculations is planning for fraud.
    Fair enough but as a comparison of 2 months, one where I work and the other where I am available for work but unable to find any despite numerous applications the point holds.
    Lets take it as a general point and assume that everyone is not as honest as you or me.


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    #30
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Or realism.

    When childcare costs so much and welfare is so high, it's very understandable for people to be on jobseekers yet unavailable for work that pays beneath what they need to replace that welfare level.

    It's not 'OR' anything. It's not a choice. It is fraud to plan to mind your kids while claiming the 'available for work' dole.

    LordNorbury wrote: »
    I don't get the point you are making. Are you saying that it is fraud if you are unemployed and minding your kids at home while claiming social welfare?
    It is fraud to plan to claim the dole while minding your kids, as you are clearly not available for work if you are minding your kids.


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    #31
    Gael23
    Registered Users Posts: 12,091 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    He could argue that he is seeking more suitable employment I suppose.


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