This is why I don't use the bus

Beano

AlekSmart wrote: »

Would ye Whisht up outa that.....EVERYBODY knows that these things happen ONLY on Dublin Bus !! ,and no more talk of things gettin better either...or you'll get given out to :eek:

I still think they should bring back the clippies. Cut down on the dwell time at stops and might put manners on the gougers on the top deck.

Five Lamps

MOH wrote: »

Certainly not by me, and I'd imagine a fair proportion of the travelling public. By definition a bus that's late can't be on time. Is this DB's official view? It would certainly explain a lot

It's actually something I've seen on bus stops in other countries.

From the DB website, "Real Time Information will show you when your bus is due to arrive at your bus stop so you can plan your journey more accurately."
It's a table of such times, which is pretty much the definition of a timetable.

Actually it's not if you read it. It's still real time information with due being a predicted value.

Again, not by passengers. The only possible reason for this list on the DB website is a comms fault between the bus and the server. If there's common situations which can cause a bus not to be displayed then they really need to list these.

So far from this thread, I gather that if my stop is a minute or two the terminus, I check RTPI just before my bus is timetabled to depart, and my bus isn't listed for my stop then one of these is true:
- my bus isn't running for some reason (mechanical failure, etc)
- my bus has left "on time" two minutes early and I've missed it
- the incoming bus is late, my bus will be late
- my bus is still at the terminus, the driver is missing, and it will be late
- my bus is still at the terminus, the driver is on it but hasn't switched on the machine yet: it will arrive as scheduled
- my bus isn't listed for some other "valid" reason, its status is indeterminate

If it is listed as being due in, say, 2 minutes:
- it may not be listed next time I check, and any of the above may apply
- it may have already passed my stop
- it may arrive in less than two minutes
- it may arrive in two minutes

Does everything in life come up to your exacting expectations? I hope so.

cdebru

MOH wrote: »

Certainly not by me, and I'd imagine a fair proportion of the travelling public. By definition a bus that's late can't be on time. Is this DB's official view? It would certainly explain a lot


From the DB website, "Real Time Information will show you when your bus is due to arrive at your bus stop so you can plan your journey more accurately."
It's a table of such times, which is pretty much the definition of a timetable.


Again, not by passengers. The only possible reason for this list on the DB website is a comms fault between the bus and the server. If there's common situations which can cause a bus not to be displayed then they really need to list these.

So far from this thread, I gather that if my stop is a minute or two the terminus, I check RTPI just before my bus is timetabled to depart, and my bus isn't listed for my stop then one of these is true:
- my bus isn't running for some reason (mechanical failure, etc)
- my bus has left "on time" two minutes early and I've missed it
- the incoming bus is late, my bus will be late
- my bus is still at the terminus, the driver is missing, and it will be late
- my bus is still at the terminus, the driver is on it but hasn't switched on the machine yet: it will arrive as scheduled
- my bus isn't listed for some other "valid" reason, its status is indeterminate

If it is listed as being due in, say, 2 minutes:
- it may not be listed next time I check, and any of the above may apply
- it may have already passed my stop
- it may arrive in less than two minutes
- it may arrive in two minutes

The system has to work on the presumption that the timetable will be operated to and then correct when it isn't, as I said some of them could be avoided with a little bit more proactive action by the controller, if the bus is 20 minutes from a terminus but due to depart in 10 minutes a controller can take action and prevent the bus counting down then disappearing. If the bus is going to operate he can shift the departure time or he cif it won't operate he can remove it at that stage.

However if something last minute happens like a mechanical fault or an ill driver, accident etc then not much can be done, if a bus was only added to the RTPI system when it was present and ready to leave as then it would be completely useless to those within the first few stops.

MOH

Five Lamps wrote: »

It's actually something I've seen on bus stops in other countries.

That's nice. And to be honest, I can think of a few other countries I'd rather be living in commuting to work. But since I'm stuck here, other countries sadly aren't relevant.

Actually it's not if you read it. It's still real time information with due being a predicted value.

Timetable: "a list of the times when something (such as a bus, train, or airplane) is expected to leave or arrive". RTPI "will show you when your bus is due to arrive". Due: "required or expected to happen".

Does everything in life come up to your exacting expectations? I hope so.

I'm pretty easygoing about most things, but obviously expecting a system that's cost over €6.5m to perform as advertised is unreasonable. If the RTPI information had proper explanation of the various conditions that can affect its accuracy I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it, but it's being presented as a blanket, accurate, real time system, when in my experience it's frequently not. Doesn't help that the FAQ page is 3 years out of date.

cdebru wrote: »

The system has to work on the presumption that the timetable will be operated to and then correct when it isn't, as I said some of them could be avoided with a little bit more proactive action by the controller, if the bus is 20 minutes from a terminus but due to depart in 10 minutes a controller can take action and prevent the bus counting down then disappearing. If the bus is going to operate he can shift the departure time or he cif it won't operate he can remove it at that stage.

However if something last minute happens like a mechanical fault or an ill driver, accident etc then not much can be done, if a bus was only added to the RTPI system when it was present and ready to leave as then it would be completely useless to those within the first few stops.

Obviously there's going to be last minute stuff and technical issues that can't be predicted. But if it requires manual intervention for things like the incoming bus being late beyond the departure time from the terminus, you've got to question the system design and why that can't be handled automatically.

cdebru

MOH wrote: »

That's nice. And to be honest, I can think of a few other countries I'd rather be living in commuting to work. But since I'm stuck here, other countries sadly aren't relevant.


Timetable: "a list of the times when something (such as a bus, train, or airplane) is expected to leave or arrive". RTPI "will show you when your bus is due to arrive". Due: "required or expected to happen".



I'm pretty easygoing about most things, but obviously expecting a system that's cost over €6.5m to perform as advertised is unreasonable. If the RTPI information had proper explanation of the various conditions that can affect its accuracy I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it, but it's being presented as a blanket, accurate, real time system, when in my experience it's frequently not. Doesn't help that the FAQ page is 3 years out of date.



Obviously there's going to be last minute stuff and technical issues that can't be predicted. But if it requires manual intervention for things like the incoming bus being late beyond the departure time from the terminus, you've got to question the system design and why that can't be handled automatically.

Main reason is that even though the bus supposed to do a particular journey may be late, often those journeys are covered by other buses. Also what will happen depends on numerous other factors the bus may operate late or not operate at all.So just because a bus is running late doesn't mean the next journey definitely won't operate hence an automated removal from the RTPI would not work either. However an automated alert to the controller that a future operation is unlikely to occur on time would be useful but that may already exist I don't know but I doubt it does.

ArmaniJeanss

MOH wrote: »

Obviously there's going to be last minute stuff and technical issues that can't be predicted. But if it requires manual intervention for things like the incoming bus being late beyond the departure time from the terminus, you've got to question the system design and why that can't be handled automatically.

The system would have to know that the number 70 Bus currently heading to Baggot Street is going to be a 38 on its reverse journey in order to give an accurate rtpi for the people waiting on the 38. I can see how this would be very tricky to do.

A simple step they could make is to differentiate between timetables and actuals on the on-street-display, so the system could say '7Min A' for buses which are on the way and '19 Min T' if this estimate is just based on the timetable. It would at least cut some of the 'the screen counted down from 17 to 3 and then disappeared' annoyances.

KD345

MOH wrote: »

I'm pretty easygoing about most things, but obviously expecting a system that's cost over €6.5m to perform as advertised is unreasonable. If the RTPI information had proper explanation of the various conditions that can affect its accuracy I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it, but it's being presented as a blanket, accurate, real time system, when in my experience it's frequently not. Doesn't help that the FAQ page is 3 years out of date.

You need to remember that this service is 'real time' and will always be affected by various things. It will never be 100% accurate. For example, if there is an incident on a bus (attack, breakdown, passenger problem, traffic issue) then this will have an immediate impact on the service, and anybody waiting at a bus stop further on the route will see their bus count down, stop and then disappear. They don't know the reason, but will automatically point the finger at the inaccurate RTPI system.

I use multiple buses daily and rely heavily on the app for connections. I find it fine the majority of the time, but I understand that the nature of city bus services will throw up unexpected issues. For example, only last week I was on a bus which had to come out of service due to an incident on the bus. It was unavoidable, but had an immediate impact on the RTPI system. Not only did it impact the few stops ahead, but also on the return journey that bus was due to make from its outer terminus, and possibly it's next lap too.

MOH, have you contacted Transport For Ireland regarding your issues? If its a reoccurring problem at a particular stop then there could be a specific problem with the times for that stop.

You do have a point saying the on street screens could provide some more information on the reason for delays. This does happen on occasions, but usually for planned events such as marches or diversions etc. Passengers like to be informed of events affecting their journey. It gives them the option of making alternative arrangements.

LXFlyer

MOH wrote: »

That's nice. And to be honest, I can think of a few other countries I'd rather be living in commuting to work. But since I'm stuck here, other countries sadly aren't relevant.

Timetable: "a list of the times when something (such as a bus, train, or airplane) is expected to leave or arrive". RTPI "will show you when your bus is due to arrive". Due: "required or expected to happen".

I'm pretty easygoing about most things, but obviously expecting a system that's cost over €6.5m to perform as advertised is unreasonable. If the RTPI information had proper explanation of the various conditions that can affect its accuracy I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it, but it's being presented as a blanket, accurate, real time system, when in my experience it's frequently not. Doesn't help that the FAQ page is 3 years out of date.

Obviously there's going to be last minute stuff and technical issues that can't be predicted. But if it requires manual intervention for things like the incoming bus being late beyond the departure time from the terminus, you've got to question the system design and why that can't be handled automatically.

I think that you're taking the words a little too literally.

No system is ever going to be able to tell you accurately to the second when a bus is due. It can, however, give the best estimate of when a bus can be expected to arrive at the stop, assuming normal traffic conditions are prevailing.


The NTA do say this on their website:
http://www.transportforireland.ie/faq/real-time/

How accurate is the information?

The National Transport Authority is committed to working with the bus companies to provide as accurate a service as possible.

Recent surveys in June 2013 in Dublin show the system has an average accuracy of 96% of services arriving within 60 seconds of the 'due' prediction. Continued development will further increase the accuracy. The National Transport Authority has recently commissioned an independent surveyor to test the system in Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford.

Real Time Information is complex and prone to issues arising from traffic congestion, communications and operational issues. The best and most expensive bus based Real Time systems in the world do not achieve much more than 90% accuracy. There will always be cases where issues will arise. For the vast majority of time, and for the vast majority of people, RTPI gives valuable and valued information.

The National Transport Authority welcome feedback from the travelling public who can access a feedback form on this website. The system will be fine-tuned in response to testing and feedback.



The Bus did not arrive when at the time stated by the App/Website

The real time system is by its nature dynamic and is set to respond to factors on the road, including changes in traffic patterns, accidents, etc. In general though, the margin of error is less than one minute for predictions of five minutes away or less. For ten-minute predictions, the margin of error is less than two minutes, the margin increases the further away in time the prediction is, as the probability of intervening events increases.

The NTA commission independent surveys and are inviting public feedback to feed into this development. We welcome feedback from the travelling public who can access a feedback form on this website. The system will be fine-tuned in response to testing and feedback.


What are the factors that may affect the accuracy of Real Time Information?


Operational considerations

The Dublin Bus Network carries, on an average week day, approximately 400,000 passengers, on a fleet of 1,000 buses, stopping at approximately 5,000 stops. Bus Éireann has a fleet of 600 buses stopping at approximately 3500 stops. Unlike trains or trams, buses move in various directions, they stop more often and are subject to traffic congestion or disruptions. When the number of stops are compared to LUAS (49 stops) and DART (31 stops), the extent and complexity of Dublin’s Bus system can be seen. With such an extensive bus system, technical problems or operational disruptions can sometimes occur.

Unanticipated problems such as a road closure or a mechanical problem can sometimes affect bus services. Occasional incidents can occur where a street is closed e.g., on St Patrick's Day, for a march or a big sporting occasion. In such cases, Bus Inspectors sometimes need to make a short notice change to scheduled bus services and it may not always be possible to reflect this on individual signs.

The real time system was developed to respond as far as possible to service disruptions – e.g., if a bus is stuck in traffic the waiting time can increase – however some disruptions could still affect the accuracy of the prediction.

Software and communication considerations

Occasionally a fault may occur in communications between the central server and the on-bus equipment.

Occasionally software updates may be required – Bus Éireann is currently implementing network changes throughout their services, which means that services and schedules are changing and information is being updated regularly.


Why does the waiting time increase or stay the same for a number of minutes sometimes?

Real time information predicts the actual time of arrival by knowing where the bus is currently located. Your bus could arrive right at the time shown or it could occasionally get stuck in traffic so the arrival time on display at the bus stop can sometimes change back and forward accordingly. This service aims to provide the most immediate and accurate information to the waiting passenger at that point in time.

There are certain issues on top of that (such as driver changes etc.) that affect the system.

I think that expecting the live system to be able to follow from one duty to another is a bit much. It's always going to need manual intervention if a bus is running late on one trip, as a human decision will need to be made as to whether the next trip will simply run late, be curtailed, or be cancelled.

However, I think some better way of communicating these latter situations needs to be arrived at - it's very frustrating when buses don't show up on time, without explanation, but I'm not sure how you can do that - probably live updates on the web for each route, but that's a lot of work I imagine in terms of systems development.

steveblack

Was told everything crashed this morning, Real Time Information, ticket validator and the radio.

smellmepower

Anyone know why the 13 was diverted away from the Fonthill Road and on to the route of the old 51B today?driver just said there was an incident.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Garda car ran over a pedestrian from what I can gather on the news. Road closed since about 11.

OldNotWIse

Beano wrote: »

I still think they should bring back the clippies. Cut down on the dwell time at stops and might put manners on the gougers on the top deck.

Sounds like something you'd need a course of amoxicillin for. What are the clippies? Inspectors? I think I've seen two in my life :P

OldNotWIse

steveblack wrote: »

Was told everything crashed this morning, Real Time Information, ticket validator and the radio.

The Purge part III - for 30 minutes, all fare evasion shall be legal

adocholiday

The RTPI indicator at Heuston Station for the 145 is a complete disaster. So much so that I've emailed Dublin Bus about it but just got a stock response back. The buses are coming from Wicklow to Heuston, so the RTPI is estimating the next departure based on their distance from the station. It regularly will say the next bus departs in 15 minutes or whatever but then that will disappear from the board after some time, or else a bus comes along and the driver will park up (i.e. not departing), and then you have to wait for the next one. I have been at the stop multiple times where this could happen with 2 or 3 buses in a row. It annoys me so much. If it said that the next bus is in 40 minutes I could make my way home on an alternative route instead of waiting for phantom buses.

If the driver is due a break then that bus shouldn't display on the next departures board.