Help! Problem Tenant

agrange

Hi everyone,
Looking for advice. I am a landlord and 3 years ago I rented my property to a family of 3. A guy, his girlfriend and their daughter. The house has two living rooms and within two months of moving in in Oct 13 they had pulled up a carpet in one of the living rooms that
I would accept possibly needed replaced. They told me that they wanted to put down a wood floor in the hall and two living rooms as their daughter was asthmatic. I reluctantly agreed as I could understand about carpets with an asthmatic. They wanted the house long term and they agreed to fund the wood floor themselves. They also wanted to paint and decorate which again they agreed to do themselves. Over the first year they argued about the rent on two occasions and stupidly I gave in.
In May of this year I gave them a months notice of a rent increase to go back to what it was when they moved in and I went over and discussed it with them and we agreed a half of what I wanted and I was to do a few bits in the house. Even at this increase it would be still approx 200 a month below market rent.

Over the 3 years I have spent approx 8K between extending the kitchen counter and presses, a new hall door and back door, new washing machine
new tiles in bathroom and various other bits.
2 weeks ago I went over to do some gardening and he called me in to say that he had a re think on the rent increase and wasn't happy with it.
I went into the kitchen and found that he had a tiler tiling it and it was 2/3 tiled without my knowledge or consent. A row broke out
and I said that I was keeping my part of the agreement and he need to do so to and shouldn't be doing this without my agreement.
The rent was due last Thursday and it hasn't been paid, I contacted him on Tuesday and he said he wasn't paying it until he knew was I
terminating the lease and I told him I wouldn't as long as we kept to our deal. He said he would discuss with his partner.
He rang me this morning and said that he wants to keep the months rent against the work he has done in the house and if it went to the PRTB they would side with him.
He said if I agree to him keeping the the months rent he would pay as normal next month. I told him I was willing to meet and discuss with him but not until he pays the outstanding rent.

I'm obviously not happy with this but what are my options?

The lease was originally two years which we extended verbally for a third year.
Do the PTRB deal with non payment of rent or is it solicitor time?
How would the PRTB look at this.

Any advice/ideas appreciated.
Thanks
Paul

Penny Tration

Send him a 14 day notice of arrears by registered post, followed by a 28 day notice of eviction if they don't pay within the 14 days.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can retain the cost of returning the parts he tiled without consent to their previous state, but you may be better off just giving the deposit back, use it as a bargaining tool to get them to leave.

garhjw

You need rid of them OP. Even if they pay the rent they sound like more trouble than they are worth. As green_screen said send them a notice of arrears.

Good luck

GerardKeating

Speaking as a tenant, I think I would love you as a landlord, and hope I would never abuse you as your tenants are.

As other have said, check the exact requirements for a notice of arrears, and follow it to the letter, start to document any and all dealings with your (soon to be former) tenant.

on_my_oe

I'm a tenant, and I agree with the others. We look after the property we rent and do minor things ourselves (loose hinges, washers etc), but we would never do anything like redecorate without permission - or expect our landlord to fund it. Ok we are only hearing one side of the story, but they sound like the tenants from hell, so it's best to get on with the eviction process.

fash

You go through the PRTB.
Steps:
1. If you haven't already got a written record noting that they haven't paid the rent - send them a letter noting the arrears and giving them a reasonable time (a week) to make it up.
2. If they fail, send a 14 day notice of arrears. This has a precise form- get the exact wording or it is invalid. So Google it.
3. Give 1 months notice of termination- again a precise form so Google it.
4. Start PRTB proceedings.

athtrasna

fash wrote: »

You go through the PRTB.
Steps:
1. If you haven't already got a written record noting that they haven't paid the rent - send them a letter noting the arrears and giving them a reasonable time (a week) to make it up.
2. If they fail, send a 14 day notice of arrears. This has a precise form- get the exact wording or it is invalid. So Google it.
3. Give 1 months notice of termination- again a precise form so Google it.
4. Start PRTB proceedings.

I would skip step 1, there's no legal requirement and this tenant is already taking the proverbial

fash

athtrasna wrote: »

I would skip step 1, there's no legal requirement and this tenant is already taking the proverbial

I believe there was a court case that said there was?
Was that subsequently overruled?

odds_on

fash wrote: »

I believe there was a court case that said there was?
Was that subsequently overruled?

fash is absolutely correct.

Where there is a fixed term agreement if place, only steps 2 and 3 are required (as per his earlier post).

However, where there is a Part 4 tenancy in existence, then before a valid 14 day notice of rent arrears can be served, the landlord must send the tenant a letter stating that he is in arrears of rent.

Judgment of Miss Justice Laffoy delivered on 8th August, 2007
Canty v PRTB

While compliance with s. 67(2) [unsocial behaviour] and (3) [rent arrears] was all that would have been required to terminate a fixed term tenancy, it was not all that was required to terminate a Part 4 tenancy, because s. 57(b) provides that the requirements set out in Part 5 for valid termination of a tenancy are “in addition to the requirements” of Part 4 with regard to the termination of a Part 4 tenancy.

Mrs OBumble

agrange wrote: »

Do the PTRB deal with non payment of rent or is it solicitor time?

You need a solicitor with tenancy law experience.

Even if the PRTB is the right route to use, you need to make sure you have your ducks in a row. Professional advice is the way to do that.

agrange

Thank you so much for all your replies. I have looked at the PRTB website and they don't have a sample of the first letter but I'm just going to send one tomorrow outlining the rent arrears. I'm just going to say

Dear Tenant
Please note that the rent due on 31st of July has not been paid and must be paid immediately otherwise I will have to take this further
thank you

If that doesn't help I'll go to step 2 and 3. I doubt it will as they just want money from me and thats it. They expect that I'll agree to it, but I wont.If this had been done properly we would be in a much different place.

I'll post and let people know how I'm getting on.

Thanks again everyone!!!

agrange

I don't believe it but I have just checked my bank and he paid rent, but 173 less than it should have been. Do i send him a letter or what do I do now?

Thanks all.

petecork

You should still send it as the rent is still in arrears (just a partial payment).

agrange wrote: »

I don't believe it but I have just checked my bank and he paid rent, but 173 less than it should have been. Do i send him a letter or what do I do now?
Thanks all.

on_my_oe

You haven't authorised the deduction, so your tenants are in arrears - send the letter!

petecork

agrange wrote: »

Thank you so much for all your replies. I have looked at the PRTB website and they don't have a sample of the first letter but I'm just going to send one tomorrow outlining the rent arrears. I'm just going to say

Dear Tenant
Please note that the rent due on 31st of July has not been paid and must be paid immediately otherwise I will have to take this further
thank you

The PRTB states:
"Within this first Notice, the landlord must give the tenant “a reasonable time” to pay the rent arrears. What is “reasonable” can vary given the circumstances of the case."

so maybe you should have 'x days' instead of immediately.


Also from PRTB:
"A landlord can give a tenant verbal notice of the rent arrears but must ensure that the tenant is aware that failure to pay the rent arrears within a reasonable time will result in the landlord terminating the tenancy."

So instead of 'otherwise I will have to take this further' maybe make it clear the tenancy will be terminated.

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/information-on-terminating-a-tenancy-for-rent-arrears

The_Morrigan

agrange wrote: »

I don't believe it but I have just checked my bank and he paid rent, but 173 less than it should have been. Do i send him a letter or what do I do now?

Thanks all.

He is still in arrears so send the letter.

No Pants

agrange wrote: »

I don't believe it but I have just checked my bank and he paid rent, but 173 less than it should have been. Do i send him a letter or what do I do now?

Thanks all.

Yes. There are still arrears, the amount has decreased is all. Be specific on the amount owed and the due date for it to be paid. Your letter cannot be ambiguous.

Little Miss Cutie

agrange wrote: »

I don't believe it but I have just checked my bank and he paid rent, but 173 less than it should have been. Do i send him a letter or what do I do now?

Thanks all.

Agrange - Can I suggest you contact the Irish Landlords Association? I think there is a joining fee of approx €40 however they will provide you with advice and also sample letters that you can send to the tenant.

My parents recently had to evict a tenant for non-payment of rent through the PRTB system and subsequently court. For the PRTB process the landlords association were very useful and my parents were able to do it without a solicitor. However for the court process they did need a solicitor.

foggy_lad

agrange wrote: »

I don't believe it but I have just checked my bank and he paid rent, but 173 less than it should have been. Do i send him a letter or what do I do now?

Thanks all.

Send a letter but asking him to make up the arrears by the next rent due date. Try to stress in the letter how important it is to pay the rent on time as arrears can easily build up and spiral out of control.

Mrs OBumble

agrange wrote: »

I don't believe it but I have just checked my bank and he paid rent, but 173 less than it should have been. Do i send him a letter or what do I do now?

Thanks all.

As your solicitor, or at a minimum professional organisation that advises landlords.

I believe that the letter which you proposed is inadequate in several ways if you need something able to stand up in court (if you ever reach that stage).

But I'm absolutely not an expert, and only able to reply from "my beliefs" rather than professional advice (which no one can give here anyways).



fyi, some people regard the partial payment scenario as actually the landlord's worse nightmare, because it can be even more difficult to get orders against a tenant who is making some payments.

Sadderday

Apologies for this OP,

Your post states that 3 years ago you rented out to a man, his OH and a child however;

it also states that 'within two months of moving in in Oct 13'

If they moved in - in August 13, they're only there one year ?

I know its probably a typo but if your sending a letter make sure all details are in order to avoid further hassle!!

agrange

This problem is getting worse. He has not paid the balance of last months rent yet and this months rent is due tomorrow so time will tell will he include it. However I don t expect either to be paid as I got a letter ffrom him saying that he will agree to a rent increase once I agree to his list of "demands" ( e.g. some new blinds , resealing of a wiindow , new insulation in house, a complete internal re-paint of walls,doors and ceilings e.t.c. e.t.c. ). He also says that hes holding onto this months rent to compensate him for the work hes done in the house as I should have paid for it.

The lease signed 3 years ago has as a special condition " No alterations to the property without prior consent from ther landlord", although it doesnt specify verbal or in writing.
It also says " In the sbsence of any formal agreement to continue after the term, the tenency will continue as a periodic month to month under the original terms and conditions "

If he doesn't pay rent + arrears tomorrow I'll be moving on terminating the lease.
Can anyone point me to a correct first letter to send. I know the PRTB website has an example to letter 2 and 3 but not the first one. Would I be better termination under the month to month condition above, or under the non payment of rent.
Can anyone point me to a good landlords association. I have found 3 but who is good with advice e.t.c.

I think I'll get legal advice as well....anyone know of a good solicitor in north dublin who knows his or her stuff and doesnt cost a small fortune?

Thanks
agrange

Cuddlesworth

agrange wrote: »

This problem is getting worse. He has not paid the balance of last months rent yet and this months rent is due tomorrow so time will tell will he include it. However I don t expect either to be paid as I got a letter ffrom him saying that he will agree to a rent increase once I agree to his list of "demands" ( e.g. some new blinds , resealing of a wiindow , new insulation in house, a complete internal re-paint of walls,doors and ceilings e.t.c. e.t.c. ). He also says that hes holding onto this months rent to compensate him for the work hes done in the house as I should have paid for it.

The lease signed 3 years ago has as a special condition " No alterations to the property without prior consent from ther landlord", although it doesnt specify verbal or in writing.
It also says " In the sbsence of any formal agreement to continue after the term, the tenency will continue as a periodic month to month under the original terms and conditions "

If he doesn't pay rent + arrears tomorrow I'll be moving on terminating the lease.
Can anyone point me to a correct first letter to send. I know the PRTB website has an example to letter 2 and 3 but not the first one. Would I be better termination under the month to month condition above, or under the non payment of rent.
Can anyone point me to a good landlords association. I have found 3 but who is good with advice e.t.c.

I think I'll get legal advice as well....anyone know of a good solicitor in north dublin who knows his or her stuff and doesnt cost a small fortune?

Thanks
agrange

Keep the letter, that's important. You need to issue a notice of eviction for breaking the conditions of the lease and withholding of rent. Then its onto the PRTB, then district court to evict.

Lawyer is very good idea to make sure everything is 100% above board.

foggy_lad

agrange wrote: »

This problem is getting worse. He has not paid the balance of last months rent yet and this months rent is due tomorrow so time will tell will he include it. However I don t expect either to be paid as I got a letter ffrom him saying that he will agree to a rent increase once I agree to his list of "demands" ( e.g. some new blinds , resealing of a wiindow , new insulation in house, a complete internal re-paint of walls,doors and ceilings e.t.c. e.t.c. ). He also says that hes holding onto this months rent to compensate him for the work hes done in the house as I should have paid for it.

The lease signed 3 years ago has as a special condition " No alterations to the property without prior consent from ther landlord", although it doesnt specify verbal or in writing.
It also says " In the sbsence of any formal agreement to continue after the term, the tenency will continue as a periodic month to month under the original terms and conditions "

If he doesn't pay rent + arrears tomorrow I'll be moving on terminating the lease.
Can anyone point me to a correct first letter to send. I know the PRTB website has an example to letter 2 and 3 but not the first one. Would I be better termination under the month to month condition above, or under the non payment of rent.
Can anyone point me to a good landlords association. I have found 3 but who is good with advice e.t.c.

I think I'll get legal advice as well....anyone know of a good solicitor in north dublin who knows his or her stuff and doesnt cost a small fortune?

Thanks
agrange

There is no lease in place!

This term/condition in the original lease "In the sbsence of any formal agreement to continue after the term, the tenency will continue as a periodic month to month under the original terms and conditions", is not worth the paper it is printed on!

Your tenant is on a part 4 tenancy and has all the rights associated with that.

As for solicitors, most know very little about tenancy law except maybe a few that deal with commercial tenancies, you would be better loooking up the RTA and reading up on it yourself!

This site is a good start and you can also look into taking the tenant to a PRTB tribunal to get them to pay up. http://www.prtb.ie/landlords


As for your tenant, they can't withhold rent for work done unless it is agreed with the landlord/agent beforehand. They also can't refuse to pay any increase until they take a case to the PRTB for an unfair/more than market rates increase, and even then if they lose they must pay all the back money for the increase.


You need to get writing on the "notice of arrears" and get reading up on the process to evict as it looks like you may need this.

one option is to contact the tenant and let them know that you are going to evict them and they will get no deposit or reference so will have little chance of finding alternative accommodation and if they leave promptly you will consider returning deposit and giving them a glowing reference depending of course on the condition of the property!

Lemming

foggy_lad wrote: »

one option is to contact the tenant and let them know that you are going to evict them and they will get no deposit or reference so will have little chance of finding alternative accommodation and if they leave promptly you will consider returning deposit and giving them a glowing reference depending of course on the condition of the property!

Don't give them a glowing reference or even offer it. You' will just be encouraging their continued behaviour. My aunt rented out her home (old family home) after getting married and got excellent references handed to her. The tenants destroyed the place. And I do mean "destroyed". That was in Scotland, so different tenency laws in place so they were ejected in short order, but the point stands.

agrange

Just in regard to the increase....I gave them 28 days notice ( verbal but not in writing ) and went over and met after the 28 days and they argeed to the increase providing I did a few small jobs ( nothing like in there letter - most of the demands in this letter were never discussed or mentioned ). Should I still insist that it was agreed even though I dont have it in writing or would I be better off forfiting it in order to have a better case for going to the prtb?

btw...in his letter he said he said he is totally within his rights to withhold the rent per the prtb regulations!!!!! I wonder what regulation is this???

Should I make a complaint to the PRTB straight away or wait and see what happens with the letters? I'll have to get a sample of the first letter somewhere as I want to make sure I do it right.

I really appreciate all your advice. You try to be a good landlord and then end up with peoplke like this. Their is no way I'm agreeing to them holding rent after doing it like that and also sending me a list of "demands". They didnt ask me for permission to do the work.....I would be mad to tolerate this!!

Thanks all

the_syco

agrange wrote: »

btw...in his letter he said he said he is totally within his rights to withhold the rent per the prtb regulations!!!!! I wonder what regulation is this???

None that I know of.

agrange wrote: »

Should I make a complaint to the PRTB straight away or wait and see what happens with the letters?

PTRB can work slowly. Very Slowly. Just start the eviction process, which can also take time. Ensure everything is sent by registered post so you have proof that it's delivered, as he-said she-said ain't worth a dime.

Cuddlesworth

agrange wrote: »

btw...in his letter he said he said he is totally within his rights to withhold the rent per the prtb regulations!!!!! I wonder what regulation is this???

They are not allowed to withhold rent. The mere fact they did is going to go against them in the PRTB hearing.

They are also not allowed make any of the following demands either

"some new blinds , resealing of a window , new insulation in house, a complete internal re-paint of walls,doors and ceilings"

Fixing broken windows, doors, white goods, plumbing, electrics within a reasonable timeframe isn't on the wrong side of things. You get the idea.

You really need to go ahead with eviction. Things are not going to get better. This family is just going to keep pushing you on everything. You have valid grounds for a eviction now, use them.

agrange

The rent wasnt paid as I expected following his letter...so going to send the first letter tomorrow. Its unclear from the PRTB website how long to give, but I suspect 7 days for the first letter as the second is a 14 day letter.

Anyone used the documents you can download from a company called Property Rock. They seem to have letters which you can download and use which were written by solicitors, which may or may not be better than the PRTB samples.

Am I safe requesting payment of the revised rent i.e. the increased rent, even though it was agreed verbally?

Thank you

ABajaninCork

agrange wrote: »

The rent wasnt paid as I expected following his letter...so going to send the first letter tomorrow. Its unclear from the PRTB website how long to give, but I suspect 7 days for the first letter as the second is a 14 day letter.

Anyone used the documents you can download from a company called Property Rock. They seem to have letters which you can download and use which were written by solicitors, which may or may not be better than the PRTB samples.

Am I safe requesting payment of the revised rent i.e. the increased rent, even though it was agreed verbally?

Thank you

I'd be looking to go legal now. The tenant is taking the proverbial. I don't know about Property Rock, but I'd try to get a solicitor to draft a letter for the arrears, asking for settlement within 14 days (or whatever the legal limit is). No response? Then I'd be looking to evict.

agrange

Hi Everyone,
Things dont always run smoothly do they. Didn't manage to get rent arrears and issued them 28 day letter of lease termination 3 weeks ago.
I got an immediate phone call upon receipt of letter saying "They werent leaving".

In the meantime they have complained to the PRTB nad there is going to be a hearing in a few weeks time. I will be getting all my documentation together for that!!

Now today he is moaning about the heating and say saying its not up to standard. Whatever that means. I told him to bleed the rads but he says he has no idea how and doesnt want to go near them and he wants me to get a plumber to do it.
If I ring a plumber to bleed rads he'll think i've gone mad and / or charge me a fortune.

Should I do it? My feeling is that I should do nothing while this whole thing is in dispute but if I do that he'll moan to the PRTB about the heating...as he says "Not being up to standard". No previous tenant ever complained about the heating and it was serviced in Feb of this year!!

Any suggestions welcome!!!