Craft Beer is a "phase" we are going through

Lovely Bloke

..according to Sligo publicans and the VFI :rolleyes:

Link

The White Hag @whitehagbrewery

Our application for licence for a craft beer experience at the Sligo fleadh was rejected - the @TheVFI_IrishPub reckon craft beer is a 'phase that will die out' and objected on behalf of 5 local pubs who feel we would detract from their business during the fleadh, with 300k people in town! Thoughts?

Am I shocked at the VFI - no, I am not.

Clowns.

evolving_doors

In there first

schemingbohemia

Is this a licensing issue decided upon by a District Judge or by the people running the Fleadh? There's not a huge amount of detail in what they're saying.

quadrifoglio verde

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Is this a licensing issue decided upon by a District Judge or by the people running the Fleadh? There's not a huge amount of detail in what they're saying.

District court id guess as they're the only ones who can grant licences (unless the fleadh can as well, but id doubt that).
Seemingly the vfi objected.
However thats what lobby groups do, they object if it goes against their members interests....id wish they'd educate their members on the benefits of having some craft beers.
All they need to do is look to the states to realise that this isn't a phase.

schemingbohemia

Well then part of the brewery's ire should be directed at the Judge, though that won't help with future events. Presumably the DJ would have had to justify the decision or is it the case that they just go - No, Next!?

Saruman

Seething rage.... off to calm down.

coylemj

Devil's Advocate......

Is a 'craft beer experience' just a fancy name for a pub in a tent? The local publicans are paying business rates and sky-high public liability insurance premiums all year round so why should they roll over and let someone pitch a tent and take a big slice of the business generated by a festival that's not likely to come back to the town for another 20 years or so?

Not in the pub business - just airing the other side of the argument.

irish_goat

coylemj wrote: »

Devil's Advocate......

Is a 'craft beer experience' just a fancy name for a pub in a tent? The local publicans are paying business rates and sky-high public liability insurance premiums all year round so why should they roll over and let someone pitch a tent and take a big slice of the business generated by a festival that's not likely to come back to the town for another 20 years or so?

They will make a fortune off this and the likelihood is that the town will need more bars, in Derry we had 5 "pop up" bars open for the week as well as a lot of bars putting extra temporary bars in their beer gardens.

What right do the pubs have to exclusively cash in on the event anyway?

BeerNut

coylemj wrote: »

why should they roll over and let someone pitch a tent and take a big slice of the business

They're expecting 300,000 people at the Fleadh. None of those pubs will be short of customers. Independent beer is very very far from being a "big slice" of the trade in any context.

Why should they allow it? Because it will give the visitor one more thing to remember about the time they went to the Fleadh in Sligo.

munchkin_utd

are microbreweries not exempt from needing a licence, or is that only when you have really really small output that even a normal commercial microbrewery would exceed?

coylemj

munchkin_utd wrote: »

are microbreweries not exempt from needing a licence, or is that only when you have really really small output that even a normal commercial microbrewery would exceed?

They still need a retail (pub) licence to sell the stuff regardless of the quantity they produce. Not sure if it's still called the same but fado fado you could apply for an 'occasional' licence for a local event, that's probably the type of licence the White Hag people applied for.

oblivious

munchkin_utd wrote: »

are microbreweries not exempt from needing a licence, or is that only when you have really really small output that even a normal commercial microbrewery would exceed?

Brewers licences has some very limited direct sales. selling for a tent at a festival you need a standard pub licence

Tigger

i live in sligo
i live 5 miles from the white hag
the pubs in sligo sell very little good beer (swagman tries foleys try better)
this makes me sad

i was at this and the clew bay sunset went down a storm

http://www.mayoman.me/mayos-new-craft-beer-a-big-hit-at-westport-food-festival

oblivious

Tigger wrote: »

i live in sligo
i live 5 miles from the white hag
the pubs in sligo sell very little good beer (swagman tries foleys try better)
this makes me sad

Contacting the chamber of commerces would be a help

Tigger

oblivious wrote: »

Contacting the chamber of commerces would be a help

lol

do you know how commercial rates work ? if they arent paid the next tennant (not landlord ) is liable , after the downturn most councils were put under pressure to waive the back rates by the chamber.
sligo don't , they let the biggest pub in sligo stay closed for 4 years due to back rates. i tried to open a business in sligo in 2012 the worst year of the recession imho and the back rates were 15,000 . rent was only 8k and i'd hace created 3 jobs and paid a landlord who would have then had a decent income for his wife to spend etc etc
no chance of a waive thats 2.5years ago and its still an empty unit

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55126550

coylemj

oblivious wrote: »

Contacting the chamber of commerces would be a help

The local chamber of commerce would probably have no standing in a district court hearing related to an application for a pub or occasional licence plus the local publicans are probably numerically the largest group in the chamber so the chamber isn't going to take a stand against them. What I mean is that grocers, shoe shops, opticians and electrical retailers don't give a XXXX about craft beer so why would they support the chamber of commerce in adopting a stance that goes directly against the local publicans?

Tigger

coylemj wrote: »

The local chamber of commerce would probably have no standing in a district court hearing related to an application for a pub or occasional licence plus the local publicans are probably numerically the largest group in the chamber so the chamber isn't going to take a stand against them. What I mean is that grocers, shoe shops, opticians and electrical retailers don't give a XXXX about craft beer so why would they support the chamber of commerce in adopting a stance that goes directly against the local publicans?

especially in sligo

quadrifoglio verde

Tigger wrote: »

lol

do you know how commercial rates work ? if they arent paid the next tennant (not landlord ) is liable , after the downturn most councils were put under pressure to waive the back rates by the chamber.
sligo don't , they let the biggest pub in sligo stay closed for 4 years due to back rates. i tried to open a business in sligo in 2012 the worst year of the recession imho and the back rates were 15,000 . rent was only 8k and i'd hace created 3 jobs and paid a landlord who would have then had a decent income for his wife to spend etc etc
no chance of a waive thats 2.5years ago and its still an empty unit

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55126550

Never understood that lark. If a business goes bust, the rates owed should go on the list of creditors with the same priority as revenue. Lumping it onto the next tenant who wasn't responsible for any of it is neither fair or right. But then that's what you get in this fine republic of ours.

Tigger

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Never understood that lark. If a business goes bust, the rates owed should go on the list of creditors with the same priority as revenue. Lumping it onto the next tenant who wasn't responsible for any of it is neither fair or right. But then that's what you get in this fine republic of ours.

no one gets the same priority as the R men but the rates man should be next and then written off

oblivious

Tigger wrote: »

lol

do you know how commercial rates work ? if they arent paid the next tennant (not landlord ) is liable , after the downturn most councils were put under pressure to waive the back rates by the chamber.
sligo don't ,

Yes and I am sorry for the way you where treated, but not this is a rates issue. The white hag brewery is an active local business that been impeaded by a vested interest group

Tigger

oblivious wrote: »

Yes and I am sorry for the way you where treated, but not this is a rates issue. The white hag brewery is an active local business that been impeaded by a vested interest group

a group who own the chamber and scare the council
so to answer your question no i havent contacted anyone
i'll live in sligo and do my business in mayo cos sligo is pretty and my friends live there but mayo is much better for local business

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

oblivious

Tigger wrote: »

a group who own the chamber and scare the council

I was afraid it would be like that :mad:

Tigger wrote: »

i'll live in sligo and do my business in mayo cos sligo is pretty and my friends live there but mayo is much better for local business

I hope Mayo works out better business wise for you

Insect Overlord

Patww79 wrote: »

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Feck off with that shite.

oblivious

Patww79 wrote: »

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Some of us just want to be able to have a choice of beer in a pub and support Irish business

quadrifoglio verde

Patww79 wrote: »

They're right though, it's just one of those notions things. It's got to the stage where it's just obscurity people are looking to talk about and no matter what it actually tastes like, if someone else has had it before then it's of no interest. Not that they should have denied the licence though.

I'm one who loves trying different beers. Trust me if the taste isn't what I was hoping for ill slate it. It's not about drinking the most obscure beer that's out there, it's about finding the best beers. New doesn't mean best but neither does popular

Hidden Cyclone

So publicans still believe they're right and their customers are wrong

Best of luck with that.

Sad but in no way surprising

Hidden Cyclone

Patww79 wrote: »

it's just one of those notions things

I'm sure the music industry said the same when Napster came on the scene

BMJD

as someone who has family ties to the area, a strong interest in locally brewed beers, plus the first 3 weeks in August off work - I'll be going somewhere else

Tigger

Hidden Cyclone wrote: »

I'm sure the music industry said the same when Napster came on the scene

if i could download beer i'd never go out

dub_skav

Patww79 wrote: »

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This is neither an original viewpoint, nor a mainstream one.

Get out of here - hipster

OldMrBrennan83

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BeerNut

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Somebody's never heard of PBR

Geuze

Tigger wrote: »

i live in sligo
i live 5 miles from the white hag
the pubs in sligo sell very little good beer (swagman tries foleys try better)
this makes me sad

Furey's on Bridge street have made great efforts with new beers - UK beer, two Donegal beers on tap, lots of bottles, etc.

The Swagman has a cask engine.

Foley's will sell you anything from the off-licence to drink in the pub.

sarkozy

They're right though, it's just one of those notions things. It's got to the stage where it's just obscurity people are looking to talk about and no matter what it actually tastes like, if someone else has had it before then it's of no interest. Not that they should have denied the licence though.

I don't understand this viewpoint. There's too much glib dismissal of trends like this by writing it off as a 'hipster' thing. First of all, that term itself is nearly meaningless, or at least people don't know and can't agree on what 'hipster' means beyond it being some abstract category in their heads for things they don't like about people. Secondly, craft brewing in Ireland started long before it was taken up internationally as a trend.

More than that, if we're to take the term 'hipster' a little more seriously then we need to distinguish between people who are 'trendy' (whose preferences can be more superficial and change more regularly) and to take a single common characteristic (though there are others) of the so-called 'hipster' phenomenon which is the notion of 'connoiseurship'.

In a broader context, we can consider this a reaction by certain groups of consumers against bland, poor quality mass produced and mass marketed beers (and any other number of products) by choosing where possible to drink beers of higher quality and better taste, and in a way that tends to necessarily resist mass production methods. It's also tied in with the notion that quality of life is linked to the quality of products, and people are beginning to realise that consuming less (i.e. not drinking your face off on swill) of better stuff is better all-round.

But this realisation isn't linked to 'hipsters', it's across the board as people wake up to the fact that we've been fed and watered crap for too long and it's just not good for anyone. That the Gen-Y/Millennial generations are making food much more part of culture is an important step towards the day when all this 'craft beer' and artisinal food is unremarkable - it just becomes normal - because that's how things are in countries (e.g. France, Spain, Italy) where food is an essential part of the culture.

If you're saying: youngsters/pretentious types will drink anything if it's 'cool', well, I'm not so sure. There are often reasons. Pabst Blue Ribbon is a horrid beer, but it became popular with 'hipsters', many of whom have been poor, creative types living on the margins (but many not) because it was cheap and because another common element of 'hipsterism' is that it has tended to act as a consumerist counter-culture - in other words, previous counter cultures rejected capitalism, popular culture and consumption as a form of resistance against the system; but in a post-cold war world where there is no easily identifiable alternative system, hipsterdom is a form of counter-cultural resistance that takes place within the logic of consumption (though not necessarily capitalist, as some concerns are run as co-operatives, for example).

This said, I'm actually quite pessimistic about the future of a craft brewing industry in Ireland. Big business is fighting back. They don't want to lose market share. They want to force pubs into signing exclusive agreements. Hell, they may even begin running their own pubs like breweries have historically tended to do in the UK. But mostly, it'll come down to economics and whether breweries can stay in business without targeted tax relief. I think the market for craft beer in Ireland is widening, and in my experience, the product is improving every year, but at the same time, I'm just wondering how much strongly-hopped, robustly flavoured American-style ales can a market take before people seek out the relief of a bland tasteless Heineken or Guinness?

symbolic

Yeah the whole, Ah its just hipster rubbish is annoying.

I drink craft beer cause I think it's delicious.

I feel for something to appeal to the masses it has to be diluted to an extent, as I imagine it's difficult to appeal to a massive amount of varying tastes with one product, so the product has to be a little bit inoffensive (not sure of right word) to do so. And a lot more profitable to knock out one product and sell lots of it.

I find its the same with Food, Music and Film. The further you dig the better it gets. I don't seek out obscure things for the sake of it, I do it because of past rewards in doing so.

Saruman

I should have a response published on thejournal.ie in a few days. I'll let people know when it's up.

Hidden Cyclone

The one thing that will definifely stunt growth IMO are prices, not so much in pubs but definitely in off licences. People who like craft don't mind paying €3+ for a bottle but even some of the more curious will pick up the case of 15 bottles of trash for €20 instead.

Obviously smaller batches, more ingredients etc mean prices will have to be higher but a lot of drinkers I know have cut back their craft purchases to the likes of Dunnes 4 for €9 as they think off licence prices are reaching piss take proportions (justified or not)

evolving_doors

Hidden Cyclone wrote: »

The one thing that will definifely stunt growth IMO are prices, not so much in pubs but definitely in off licences. People who like craft don't mind paying €3+ for a bottle but even some of the more curious will pick up the case of 15 bottles of trash for €20 instead.

Obviously smaller batches, more ingredients etc mean prices will have to be higher but a lot of drinkers I know have cut back their craft purchases to the likes of Dunnes 4 for €9 as they think off licence prices are reaching piss take proportions (justified or not)

In a way thats the crux of the craft brewers paradox.. The product has to be so unique and complicatef to sell, but at the same time if its priced accordingly (by whoever...brewer/supplier etc) then they've shot themselves in the foot.
Also if they want to sell decent volume at a competitive price then they have to upscale production to larger premises so the trick is getting the same taste at a larger level of production. Are they stil artisan brewers?

I think any brewer should forget about delivering to markets first and foremost. Get the pints flowing in the pubs and build up a lot of loyalty, then very slowly consider selling to offies. Just thinking of The Well in Cork, its being going for what 20years, but im only seeing the flagship brews hitting the shelves now.

Ipso

It's good to know they're trying to protect customers from some fad instead of being some sh1te hawk gombeens.

BaZmO*

Probably the same group of people that thought serving food in a pub was "just a fad"

oblivious

BaZmO* wrote: »

Probably the same group of people that thought serving food in a pub was "just a fad"

And ladies toilets too :pac:

Saruman

Here's the article now. Seems to be getting a great response.
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/craft-beer-ireland-1610831-Aug2014/

zoobizoo

We had a food and craft beer market as part of the Bray Summerfest.

The local pubs were the ones who were involved in running it and there were also some craft brewers along as well. These pubs have great craft beer selections though.

The whole thing worked well and people (me) were delighted to get the chance to taste beers that they hadn't tried before.

As for it being a "phase" - well, I think that it has changed the way that certain people buy and drink beer. I saw the light 20 years ago and I'm delighted to have way more choice now.

It's not a phase but it's also not mainstream. Friends of mine would still order a Heineken automatically prior to checking what craft beers were available.

If the Govt brought in minimum pricing, and the **** beers were more in line price wise with craft beers, I think you'd see an interest in uptake.

I've never seen a on street drunk drinking a craft beer. Although I guess their aim is quantity over quality.

Saruman

zoobizoo wrote: »

I've never seen a on street drunk drinking a craft beer. Although I guess their aim is quantity over quality.

Well, there was this time....

Lucena

zoobizoo wrote: »

If the Govt brought in minimum pricing, and the **** beers were more in line price wise with craft beers, I think you'd see an interest in uptake.

Can we not have it the other way round? Strangely enough in England the craft beers (ok real ale) are cheaper than the macrolagers!

oblivious

Lucena wrote: »

Can we not have it the other way round? Strangely enough in England the craft beers (ok real ale) are cheaper than the macrolagers!

The uk appears to be dived that real ale is not or not always craft beer.