There's no academic difference between working class and middle class children

Czarcasm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Correlation and causation until we know all the facts. I had absolutely terrible teachers. I made it to be a scientist now with external help so in hindsight the problem clearly wasn't me. There are children all over the country saying their teacher doesn't want to teach them and it's ignored again and again.

And what's stopping these children from taking responsibility for themselves then if they know their teachers aren't that bothered?

Off-topic slightly but have you ever been to the Young Scientists Exhibition and witnessed some of the talent on display there?

Clearly some students are taking their education seriously rather than passing the buck.

steddyeddy

Czarcasm wrote: »

And what's stopping these children from taking responsibility for themselves then if they know their teachers aren't that bothered?

Off-topic slightly but have you ever been to the Young Scientists Exhibition and witnessed some of the talent on display there?

Clearly some students are taking their education seriously rather than passing the buck.

Yes they are. Our school never told us about the young scientist. I sent a letter to the founder Tony Scott (also inventor of the ionisation smoke alarm) and told him our school were never given the option. He wrote back to me and urged me to apply to college. He's the reason I'm in college. A great man all together.

steddyeddy

Cantremember wrote: »

Missing from your list: monkey do what monkey see. Kids tend to emulate what they see promoted in the home. And some kids have no wish to go to 3rd level. They want to work with their hands. They want to be mechanics and hairdressers and they should never be forced to follow some idiotic social policy devised on the premise that everyone should aspire to academia. The boss in Aer Lingus got it right: there should be far more respect for technical education in Ireland up to technical universities.

No one is disagreeing with that but a desire to work with one's hands is not confined to a socio economic class. People from a certain class end up working with their hands a lot of the time but that is because of lack of opportunity.

steddyeddy

Czarcasm wrote: »

And what's stopping these children from taking responsibility for themselves then if they know their teachers aren't that bothered?

Off-topic slightly but have you ever been to the Young Scientists Exhibition and witnessed some of the talent on display there?

Clearly some students are taking their education seriously rather than passing the buck.

To answer this point they're kids. If a teacher or anyone says they're not up to scratch then they believe it.

Cantremember

steddyeddy wrote: »

In short yes there are crap parents but schools can rectify that to a large degree. Currently they're not trying hard enough.

Who is going to do this work in schools? The guidance counsellor? You want schools repurposed to a role as compensators for crap parenting. This is to be achieved by trying harder? Laughable shyte.

steddyeddy

Cantremember wrote: »

Who is going to do this work in schools? The guidance counsellor? You want schools repurposed to a role as compensators for crap parenting. This is to be achieved by trying harder? Laughable shyte.

Yes actually. I refer you to my last point. It has been achieved.

• Finland is a country like any other. I mean that it has sh1t and good parents. In the last few years Finland restructured it's schools , the student-pupil ratio in each school was standardised and the gap literacy and science rate between the rich and poor in Finland shrunk to nearly nothing. The more scientific minded of us will recognise that if you change one variable and new results appear it's usually down to the variable.

Cantremember

steddyeddy wrote: »

No one is disagreeing with that but a desire to work with one's hands is not confined to a socio economic class. People from a certain class end up working with their hands a lot of the time but that is because of lack of opportunity.

Unquantifiable assertion. Lots of other possibilities exist.

my teapot is orange

I think too much emphasis is placed on what goes on what school the child goes to and what goes on in school. The parents are the main influence in the childs upbringing and, while not always, I think the parents who are middle to high income professionals often instil in their child that university is very achievable and almost expected, sometimes other parents who have never been to college don't place the same emphasis on it, like it's not part of their world.

Czarcasm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes they are. Our school never told us about the young scientist. I sent a letter to the founder Tony Scott (also inventor of the ionisation smoke alarm) and told him our school were never given the option. He wrote back to me and urged me to apply to college. He's the reason I'm in college. A great man all together.

Can't say I've ever had the pleasure, but at least you've shown that you can be resourceful in the face of adversity, and that's stood to you more than the other students in your class who didn't have your drive at the time. The problem isn't lack of resources among students, the problem is lack of ambition and discipline.

Ave Sodalis

Czarcasm wrote: »

And what's stopping these children from taking responsibility for themselves then if they know their teachers aren't that bothered?

What if they don't have the resources to do so? Or the means to do so? How about, instead of the children taking all responsibility, the teachers in question take the responsibility they already have and do their job? Why should we take the responsibility entirely away from the adult who is supposed to have most of the responsibility anyway?

tritium

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well done Pablo and best of luck with your daughter. That's exactly why I point out that ability to pay is more accurate than willingness. Many excellent parents simply haven't the money to send their kids to summer schools.

My dad wasn't around much but I was luckily very clever and always asked questions. My uncle was an electrical engineer and always encouraged me to think.

Why do you need to go to summer schools to achieve academically? Parental encouragement would seem far more critical. You don't need a gazillion points to get into college, and to be honest (speaking from experience) the working class kids who want to get to college and who want to get qualifications will. I'd honestly be somewhat more concerned with the old boys and girls networks that permeate many aspects of Irish business, professions and politics and do far more to hold people back.

Cantremember

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes actually. I refer you to my last point. It has been achieved.

Not by "trying harder".

steddyeddy

Cantremember wrote: »

Unquantifiable assertion. Lots of other possibilities exist.

So your assertion is that people born into lower economic backgrounds will have been genetically primed to have fine motor control at the expense of higher cortical function?

tritium

sup_dude wrote: »

What if they don't have the resources to do so? Or the means to do so? How about, instead of the children taking all responsibility, the teachers in question take the responsibility they already have and do their job? Why should we take the responsibility entirely away from the adult who is supposed to have most of the responsibility anyway?

Funny, I would have thought the adult with most of the responsibility was the parent........

steddyeddy

Cantremember wrote: »

Not by "trying harder".

By remodelling the system and paying attention to what has been going wrong.

steddyeddy

tritium wrote: »

Funny, I would have thought the adult with most of the responsibility was the parent........

As has been said again and again some parents are sh1t. Lets get over that fact and try to compensate for it.

steddyeddy

tritium wrote: »

Why do you need to go to summer schools to achieve academically? Parental encouragement would seem far more critical. You don't need a gazillion points to get into college, and to be honest (speaking from experience) the working class kids who want to get to college and who want to get qualifications will. I'd honestly be somewhat more concerned with the old boys and girls networks that permeate many aspects of Irish business, professions and politics and do far more to hold people back.

You need 500 to get into science now. It's a joke but that's another story. I agree with the financial sector nepotism but fortunately that's not an industry I'm involved in.

Mardy Bum

steddyeddy wrote: »

Correlation and causation until we know all the facts. I had absolutely terrible teachers. I made it to be a scientist now with external help so in hindsight the problem clearly wasn't me. There are children all over the country saying their teacher doesn't want to teach them and it's ignored again and again.

OK your whole point was third level participation wasn't high enough. I pointed out it is one of the highest in the EU and you deflect again. Think your argument through and try not to bring your own agenda/history along with it.

Cantremember

steddyeddy wrote: »

By remodelling the system and paying attention to what has been going wrong.

Why do I get the impression you support the unlamented R Quinn? So pay attention: failure of political leadership to address core issues and monumental misjudgement in looking for buy in to reform in the midst of national outrage over bankers rescued while ordinary workers were screwed to the wall and then cutting the resources needed for the reform. An Irish solution to the Finnish question. Vote Labour.

steddyeddy

Mardy Bum wrote: »

OK your whole point was third level participation wasn't high enough. I pointed out it is one of the highest in the EU and you deflect again. Think your argument through and try not to bring your own agenda/history along with it.

Highest participation from what socio economic group?

Ave Sodalis

steddyeddy wrote: »

As has been said again and again some parents are sh1t. Lets get over that fact and try to compensate for it.

And it isn't always the parents fault. No one person is to blame but a collection of different reasons, depending on the person. Like I said in the thread, I'm in college, my mother is going to college, my brother will be going to college next year, my sister has plans for college but my youngest brother... we had trouble getting him to get ready for primary school. Why? Because of the teachers mainly. The last teacher he had before moving school was a bully but because my brother has behavioural problems due to a childhood illness, he was labelled as the bad kid therefore nothing was done about it until he moved and the teacher started picking on the other kids. We were actually comparing school reports from the first half of last year to the second half in the new school and the difference is incredible. Even getting him to school in the morning is far easier.

steddyeddy

Cantremember wrote: »

Why do I get the impression you support the unlamented R Quinn? So pay attention: failure of political leadership to address core issues and monumental misjudgement in looking for buy in to reform in the midst of national outrage over bankers rescued while ordinary workers were screwed to the wall and then cutting the resources needed for the reform. An Irish solution to the Finnish question. Vote Labour.

No I don't support him or Labour.

Cantremember

steddyeddy wrote: »

No I don't support him or Labour.

Well then go away and do some research into the monumental **** up he has left in his wake. As you want to reflect on what has gone wrong.

FISMA

steddyeddy wrote: »

You can't describe a child's academic ability accurately by a socio economic class IMHO.

Generally speaking, you can. Middle-class children outpace children from poor areas. Generally speaking, the divergence begins to show around grade 3.

steddyeddy wrote: »

You also can't judge a child by his/her parents attendance or non attendance at college.

Agreed. Many degrees do little more than provide a lecturer a job. Without which, they themselves would be unemployed.

steddyeddy

FISMA wrote: »

Generally speaking, you can. Middle-class children outpace children from poor areas. Generally speaking, the divergence begins to show around grade 3.



Agreed. Many degrees do little more than provide a lecturer a job. Without which, they themselves would be unemployed.

You're confusing ability with performance.

Mardy Bum

steddyeddy wrote: »

Highest participation from what socio economic group?

Highest participation as in the total population. Ireland therefore is better than most countries at encouraging further learning.

Cantremember

sup_dude wrote: »

And it isn't always the parents fault. No one person is to blame but a collection of different reasons, depending on the person. Like I said in the thread, I'm in college, my mother is going to college, my brother will be going to college next year, my sister has plans for college but my youngest brother... we had trouble getting him to get ready for primary school. Why? Because of the teachers mainly. The last teacher he had before moving school was a bully but because my brother has behavioural problems due to a childhood illness, he was labelled as the bad kid therefore nothing was done about it until he moved and the teacher started picking on the other kids. We were actually comparing school reports from the first half of last year to the second half in the new school and the difference is incredible. Even getting him to school in the morning is far easier.

I'm curious: how does a school cure the outcome of a childhood illness?

steddyeddy

Czarcasm wrote: »

Can't say I've ever had the pleasure, but at least you've shown that you can be resourceful in the face of adversity, and that's stood to you more than the other students in your class who didn't have your drive at the time. The problem isn't lack of resources among students, the problem is lack of ambition and discipline.

I think it was more anger than resourcefulness. Here's the man himself. He's a champion of people from disadvantaged areas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRsJsEs59jQ

steddyeddy

Cantremember wrote: »

I'm curious: how does a school cure the outcome of a childhood illness?

That's a post worthy of Fox news. He didn't say he wanted to teachers to cure it. Understanding it would be nice.

tritium

steddyeddy wrote: »

You need 500 to get into science now. It's a joke but that's another story. I agree with the financial sector nepotism but fortunately that's not an industry I'm involved in.

Um, where did I say financial sector?.......


And for a long time there have been high points for some courses, and ways to get around them by doing diplomas that lead into degrees etc. Really it tends to be the prestige courses like medicine that have the highest demand and allegedly are filled by the children of the upper classes.

Interesting though that your comparison in the thread title is between working and middle class - many people would see much less of a distinction between those two groups than you do. Indeed I can pretty much guarantee you that a number of folk you'd consider working class would consider themselves middle class. What is the cut off or dstinction between those two for you anyway?