Rules thread

Goodluck2me

I'm running a matchplay through work, about 60 or so runners in it. We suggested that anyone who didn't have a GUI could play off 18, and that the handicap of the week of the game was in play.

One guy, who was keen to get a legitimate HC joined a club and stuck in three cards before his match was played and calculated his handicap based on the rules of the GUI, correctly at 21. However, given the match was on a Tues and he handed his last card on the Saturday he didn't get the offical one back from the club.

So he told his opponent on the day that he calculated it off the GUI rules, and beat him 4&3. The next week his official handicap comes in at 18 from the club, as they have clearly put in some sort of adjustment. What are your thoughts?

John Divney

He should offer a rematch, he had no handicap, made his own calculation when everyone else played off 18?

This is not rules if golf because it is not a competition by GUI committee to oversee it, but by your own rules he should have been off 18

Tones69

Goodluck2me wrote: »

I'm running a matchplay through work, about 60 or so runners in it. We suggested that anyone who didn't have a GUI could play off 18, and that the handicap of the week of the game was in play.

One guy, who was keen to get a legitimate HC joined a club and stuck in three cards before his match was played and calculated his handicap based on the rules of the GUI, correctly at 21. However, given the match was on a Tues and he handed his last card on the Saturday he didn't get the offical one back from the club.

So he told his opponent on the day that he calculated it off the GUI rules, and beat him 4&3. The next week his official handicap comes in at 18 from the club, as they have clearly put in some sort of adjustment. What are your thoughts?

He played off the wrong handicap really. He shouldnt have played until he had his OFFICIAL handicap. When i first joined my gc i handed in cards of all over 100! And still got given a h/c of 16.

Edit: you said you give guys with no official hcap a hcap of 18. This guy didnt have an official hcap so 18 was what you should have made him play off on the day until he got his official one

cairny

I think technically he should forfeit, the basic principle being that you must cut yourself for a good score immediately but can't ever increase until it's official.

That said it's not a GUI event and you're free to make your own decision, he made an honest presumption, voiding the match seems equitable to me. I don't think you can let the result stand though.

Matchplay events are usually run on the basis that everyone plays off whatever handicap they have at the start date. You're making things more complicated by having continually adjusted handicaps, fellas waiting for 0.1s to be applied etc.

Goodluck2me

Couple of things to bear in mind also. Many of the guys have no idea of the rules. The only reason we found out was he said it to us to ensure it was above board - so no malice or intent to screw someone. His opponent didn't complain about it.

I don't think the loser of the match wants to re-match either.

John Divney

No harm no foul really then, if the other player is happy then there's no problem.

Impressed you got 60 people and organised it, fair play, it's a great idea. No need for unnecessary drama

cairny

Ah fair enough so, maybe he should be offered it though, if he says no you're grand then everything hunky dory.

You could consider a "plate" tournament for those that lose their first matches, give everybody two games and keep the interest going. Then again you've probably put too much work into it already.

Johnodot

He should have played off 18 - as per your rules he did not have a GUI handicap at the time. If he won 4&3, he probably would have still won. Irrespective of this, if the result is officially announced and there is no claim by the opponent, then it stands - as per Decision 6-2a/5, it stands unless the player had known he was giving wrong information, which clearly he didn't.

PARlance

Goodluck2me wrote: »

What are your thoughts?

Run the society as you deem best.
Don't fall into the trap of trying to be the GUI, R&A etc. Just do the right thing as you, and the society, see it.

GreeBo

PARlance wrote: »

Run the society as you deem best.
Don't fall into the trap of trying to be the GUI, R&A etc. Just do the right thing as you, and the society, see it.

Run it using the best rule of golf.

Play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it, and if you cannot do either, do what is fair.

mike12

the result may still have been 4&3 so i would leave it as it is.

Johnny_Fontane

my partner got called up last night in fourball matchplay for raking a bunker before taking his shot. He had jumped into the back of the bunker (well away from his ball).

guy we were playing immediately called two shot penalty.

We didnt check the rules at the time (the guy was well down the fairway), but you are allowed to rake the sand before or after your shot. (exception 2 to rule 13-4)

What a dick!

FixdePitchmark

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

my partner got called up last night in fourball matchplay for raking a bunker before taking his shot. He had jumped into the back of the bunker (well away from his ball).

guy we were playing immediately called two shot penalty.

We didnt check the rules at the time (the guy was well down the fairway), but you are allowed to rake the sand before or after your shot. (exception 2 to rule 13-4)

What a dick!

That was covered here a while back - well somewhere , might have been on illegal driver thread - that some lads call stuff and are wrong. Sort of ignorant opportunistic arseholes.

Goodluck2me

He was very gracious, offered a rematch or to be kicked out, his opponent told me it was Dormy 6 so he said it wouldn't have made any difference. So given its a social game, a genuine mistake and he's been honest about it we've carried on. Obviously playing off 18 now.

Thanks for the feedback

Goodluck2me

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

That was covered here a while back - well somewhere , might have been on illegal driver thread - that some lads call stuff and are wrong. Sort of ignorant opportunistic arseholes.

In my view you have to be very sure to call someone up on that, especially on the course.

Just out of curiosity, is it only the club that can't touch the sand?

PARlance

Goodluck2me wrote: »

In my view you have to be very sure to call someone up on that, especially on the course.

Just out of curiosity, is it only the club that can't touch the sand?

Just for another twist. The club can touch the sand if it's a case that you've lost balance and you're using it to stop you from falling. (Not sure the exact wording).

ForeRight

I thought you could now rake the bunker away from where your ball is if you deemed it course maintenance?

PARlance

ForeRight wrote: »

I thought you could now rake the bunker away from where your ball is if you deemed it course maintenance?

Ya you are, OP was playing with some guy that thought differently though

ForeRight

PARlance wrote: »

Ya you are, OP was playing with some guy that thought differently though

It's unreal the amount of people out there that are wrongly willing to jump on you for a rules shout. They are ever so matter of fact about it too.


I played recently in a match.

Tee shot went deep into trees so I declared a provisional to be played. That too went into big trouble.

Went looking for the first ball. Found it buried in the trees. I called an unplayable and told the guy I was going back to play again under penalty. He said I couldn't do that and I had to play my provisional.

No I don't I said. That provisional was only in play of I lost my first ball and I was taking my option of replaying the shot so back I went.

Lost the hole so nothing came of it but he was in an awful huff over it as he thought I was wrong.

I think I was right? I hope I was anyway!

Russman

ForeRight wrote: »

It's unreal the amount of people out there that are wrongly willing to jump on you for a rules shout. They are ever so matter of fact about it too.


I played recently in a match.

Tee shot went deep into trees so I declared a provisional to be played. That too went into big trouble.

Went looking for the first ball. Found it buried in the trees. I called an unplayable and told the guy I was going back to play again under penalty. He said I couldn't do that and I had to play my provisional.

No I don't I said. That provisional was only in play of I lost my first ball and I was taking my option of replaying the shot so back I went.

Lost the hole so nothing came of it but he was in an awful huff over it as he thought I was wrong.

I think I was right? I hope I was anyway!

You were completely correct, once the original is found, the provisional no longer matters.

ForeRight

Russman wrote: »

You were completely correct, once the original is found, the provisional no longer matters.

Yeah I thought that but it's hard not to talk yourself out of it when someone questions you like they know best.
He obviously couldn't accept that I got a second bite at teeing off for 3.

Goodluck2me

ForeRight wrote: »

It's unreal the amount of people out there that are wrongly willing to jump on you for a rules shout. They are ever so matter of fact about it too.


I played recently in a match.

Tee shot went deep into trees so I declared a provisional to be played. That too went into big trouble.

Went looking for the first ball. Found it buried in the trees. I called an unplayable and told the guy I was going back to play again under penalty. He said I couldn't do that and I had to play my provisional.

No I don't I said. That provisional was only in play of I lost my first ball and I was taking my option of replaying the shot so back I went.

Lost the hole so nothing came of it but he was in an awful huff over it as he thought I was wrong.

I think I was right? I hope I was anyway!

So do you get to hit your third off the tee again? (literally your third in this case?

Also could someone explain the concept and rule around "unplayable" ive never invoked it.

ForeRight

Goodluck2me wrote: »

So do you get to hit your third off the tee again? (literally your third in this case?

Also could someone explain the concept and rule around "unplayable" ive never invoked it.

You can call a ball unplayable anywhere you like and then under penalty you can
play a ball from where your last shot was played, or
drop a ball any distance behind the point where the ball lay keeping a straight line between the hole, the point where the ball lay and the spot on which the ball is dropped, or
drop a ball within two club-lengths of where the ball lies not nearer the hole.



In my scenario I went back and re teed for my third but the guy was telling me my provisional was now in play. It's not once I found my first I told him.

GreeBo

Unless you are in a bunker where you can't just go back as fast as you want, you can replay or drop within the bunker.

ForeRight

GreeBo wrote: »

Unless you are in a bunker where you can't just go back as fast as you want, you can replay or drop within the bunker.

I forgot to stipulate that.

Same in a hazard too is it?

GreeBo

ForeRight wrote: »

I forgot to stipulate that.

Same in a hazard too is it?

Water hazard had pretty much the same options, replay, drop in line with flag and entry point, use drop zone out with a lateral two club lengths out from point ball last crossed hazard. Note it's not important where the ball ends up when in a water hazard, only where it last crossed the hazard.

Goodluck2me

Very helpful thanks

cairny

GreeBo wrote: »

Water hazard had pretty much the same options, replay, drop in line with flag and entry point, use drop zone out with a lateral two club lengths out from point ball last crossed hazard. Note it's not important where the ball ends up when in a water hazard, only where it last crossed the hazard.

Isn't there one more option for lateral water hazards....a point on opposite side of the hazard but same distance from hole?

GreeBo

cairny wrote: »

Isn't there one more option for lateral water hazards....a point on opposite side of the hazard but same distance from hole?

Correct, the two club lengths can be taken on either side of a lateral hazard.

TrapperChamonix

GreeBo wrote: »

Unless you are in a bunker where you can't just go back as fast as you want, you can replay or drop within the bunker.

In a related way what is worth considering is if you putt off the green into a bunker. Sometimes you are better calling unplayable and dropping on the green (or do you place it?).

GreeBo

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

In a related way what is worth considering is if you putt off the green into a bunker. Sometimes you are better calling unplayable and dropping on the green (or do you place it?).

If taking a penalty and replaying was the best chance of a low score in that scenario I'd go get a bunker lesson!

onlyfinewine

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

In a related way what is worth considering is if you putt off the green into a bunker. Sometimes you are better calling unplayable and dropping on the green (or do you place it?).

If the original shot was played from on the green, the ball is placed. If through the green it is dropped. Simples.

Don't mind Greebo, he gets like that sometimes!

Running Balance

This happened a couple of weeks back ended up in a bunker.the problem was it was not raked and ball was in a heel imprint. Very soft sand which meant the ball 6 inches below the usual level of the bunker and unplayable.
I wanted to take an unplayable and drop in the bunker but the guy I was playing with said I couldn't as it was a hazard.
Was he right?

alxmorgan

Running Balance wrote: »

This happened a couple of weeks back ended up in a bunker.the problem was it was not raked and ball was in a heel imprint. Very soft sand which meant the ball 6 inches below the usual level of the bunker and unplayable.
I wanted to take an unplayable and drop in the bunker but the guy I was playing with said I couldn't as it was a hazard.
Was he right?

No he was wrong.

ForeRight

Running Balance wrote: »

This happened a couple of weeks back ended up in a bunker.the problem was it was not raked and ball was in a heel imprint. Very soft sand which meant the ball 6 inches below the usual level of the bunker and unplayable.
I wanted to take an unplayable and drop in the bunker but the guy I was playing with said I couldn't as it was a hazard.
Was he right?

Wrong I'm afraid

SnowDrifts

GreeBo wrote: »

If taking a penalty and replaying was the best chance of a low score in that scenario I'd go get a bunker lesson!

Really? He said "sometimes". You can't imagine any scenarios whereby it would be easier to re-hit the putt? I certainly can.

Running Balance

ForeRight wrote: »

Wrong I'm afraid

thanks for confirming,
He is one of those know it all pr1cks in our society. As I wasnt sure I didn't want the hassle.

ForeRight

Running Balance wrote: »

thanks for confirming,
He is one of those know it all pr1cks in our society. As I wasnt sure I didn't want the hassle.

If taking an unplayable in a bunker you must take your drop in the bunker still but the fact you are in a bunker does not mean you cannot take an unplayable.


It's always handy to have the pocket book of the R&A rules in your bag or the app on the phone. It's very easy to reference

Running Balance

ForeRight wrote: »

If taking an unplayable in a bunker you must take your drop in the bunker still but the fact you are in a bunker does not mean you cannot take an unplayable.


It's always handy to have the pocket book of the R&A rules in your bag or the app on the phone. It's very easy to reference

yeah rules book picked up, and app too.
Its amazing how much it messes with your head for the rest of the round.

PARlance

Running Balance wrote: »

This happened a couple of weeks back ended up in a bunker.the problem was it was not raked and ball was in a heel imprint. Very soft sand which meant the ball 6 inches below the usual level of the bunker and unplayable.
I wanted to take an unplayable and drop in the bunker but the guy I was playing with said I couldn't as it was a hazard.
Was he right?

You can but just to be sure, it's not a free drop, it's a stroke penalty.

If a situation arises like that again and you can verify the rule then you should/could play the hole out with 2 balls and get it clarified after the round before entering your card.

slave1

You can take a drop outside the bunker under a 2 stroke penalty AFAICR

GreeBo

slave1 wrote: »

You can take a drop outside the bunker under a 2 stroke penalty AFAICR

Any link for that one, as I'm positive it's not correct.

SnowDrifts

slave1 wrote: »

You can take a drop outside the bunker under a 2 stroke penalty AFAICR

No... you might be confusing it with taking relief from an abnormal ground condition in a bunker whereby you can drop outside under penalty of 1 stroke.

Taking an unplayable however, you must remain in the bunker (2 club lengths or back in line) or re-hit the original shot all under penalty of 1 stroke.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-25/

Running Balance

PARlance wrote: »

You can but just to be sure, it's not a free drop, it's a stroke penalty.

If a situation arises like that again and you can verify the rule then you should/could play the hole out with 2 balls and get it clarified after the round before entering your card.

yep I wanted to an unplayable penalty drop. I don't mind hitting it out of bunkers

cheers for the tip of playing two
balls out.

just to check this doesnt lead to an unfair advantage in judging the putting green with the second ball if I managed to get the first ball out. (which I didn't, might be bit of a moot point).

PARlance

Running Balance wrote: »

yep I wanted to an unplayable penalty drop. I don't mind hitting it out of bunkers

cheers for the tip of playing too balls out.

just to check this doesnt lead to an unfair advantage in judging the putting green with the second ball if I managed to get the first ball out. (which I didn't, might be bit of a moot point).

No it wouldn't be deemed practice/testing in this rare case.

Small point but I think you also need to declare the ball you want to count even though it might be obvious.

As in, before you play either of the balls you would need to say "this is my ball if I'm proven to be correct" about your pentaly drop ball.
In your case (where you were correct) it would be tough luck if you not only got out, but somehow holed, the first ball.

slave1

SnowDrifts wrote: »

No... you might be confusing it with taking relief from an abnormal ground condition in a bunker whereby you can drop outside under penalty of 1 stroke.

Taking an unplayable however, you must remain in the bunker (2 club lengths or back in line) or re-hit the original shot all under penalty of 1 stroke.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-25/

That's it, half asleep travelling back off holidays

Ronney

Strange one popped up yesterday.

My ball crossed a lateral hazard and finishes 40 yards further on in the hazard. My ball finished just on the edge of the water, i.e. was on land but inside the red line.

Decided to play as it lies and managed to knock it straight into the hazard. ball never left the hazard during stroke.

Where do I Drop the Next?
Is my point of entry 40 yards back where the first ball crossed the hazard or is the ball in play for the second shot and is this where it enters the hazard when struck?

GreeBo

In the hazard, you no longer have the option of replaying the previous shot.
/edit
Corrected in subsequent post to clarify you can, under penalty.

You can drop in the hazard and then take *another* penalty drop to get out of the hazard.

So if your drive went into you would be playing 4 from just outside (well 2 clublengths) the hazard.

Check out the Kevin Na video from a year or so ago when he went all lumberjack mode in the forest instead of going back to the tee.

Whyner

GreeBo wrote: »

In the hazard, you no longer have the option of replaying the previous shot.
You can drop in the hazard and then take *another* penalty drop to get out of the hazard.

So if your drive went into you would be playing 4 from just outside (well 2 clublengths) the hazard.

Check out the Kevin Na video from a year or so ago when he went all lumberjack mode in the forest instead of going back to the tee.

So in answering his question, can he not drop back in line from where the ball entered?

2 club length option also?

GreeBo

Whyner wrote: »

So in answering his question, can he not drop back in line from where the ball entered?

2 club length option also?

Actually 26-2 provides for replaying the last shot taken outside the hazard (under penalty of 1 shot)

a. Ball Comes to Rest in Same or Another Water Hazard
If a ball played from within a water hazard comes to rest in the same or another water hazard after the stroke, the player may:
(i) proceed under Rule 26-1a. If, after dropping in the hazard, the player elects not to play the dropped ball, he may:
(a) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c, adding the additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule and using as the reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of this hazard before it came to rest in this hazard; or
(b) add an additional penalty of one stroke and play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5); or
(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c; or
(iii) under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5).

Tommo 76

I've two rules questions ye might be able to help me with:

The first one is say in a special format or 3-4 person team event,each playing their own ball and 1 to score on every hole ( say all to score on par 3's), can one of the other team mates intentionally putt his ball over behind his partners, and then putt out the hole to give his partner a read and line? Is there any rule against this? I know it's unsporting etc but rules wise is there anything against it?

Secondly: I know if your ball is on the green and someone off the green hits it with their shot you move it back to it's original location but if both are off the green, say your ball comes up short of green from 180 yards,and another guy hits his shot which hits yours into the hole for example, or onto green, what happens? Is your ball moved back to it's original position or is it seemed you're after finishing out your ball?