5 amp light socket - extension idea

carlson

Hi there

I have a sofa up against a wall with a table on each side. There is a lamp on both tables but a 5 amp socket only on one side (normal sockets also on both sides)

The 5 amp sockets (there are 3) in the room are turned on by a dimmer switch.


Can I put a 5amp plug on an extension cord and plug the two lamps into the extension so both lights come on at the same time via dimmer or will that overload things?

House was renovated completely 2 years ago and is awash with sockets except for this particular place.

Secondly if this is not possible do they make double adaptors for 5 amp plugs?

As you can gather I am fairly clueless. Any advice appreciated

Robbie.G

carlson wrote: »

Hi there

I have a sofa up against a wall with a table on each side. There is a lamp on both tables but a 5 amp socket only on one side (normal sockets also on both sides)

The 5 amp sockets (there are 3) in the room are turned on by a dimmer switch.


Can I put a 5amp plug on an extension cord and plug the two lamps into the extension so both lights come on at the same time via dimmer or will that overload things?

House was renovated completely 2 years ago and is awash with sockets except for this particular place.

Secondly if this is not possible do they make double adaptors for 5 amp plugs?

As you can gather I am fairly clueless. Any advice appreciated

Only if the extension has 5amp plugs on it.the whole lot needs to off standard sockets and plugs

carlson

Sorry I am a bit unclear are you saying

If the lamps with standard plugs are plugged into the extension cord with standard sockets and I put a 5 amp plug on the extension and plug it into my 5 amp socket on the wall this will trip everything/be dangerous?

2011

carlson wrote: »

I have a sofa up against a wall with a table on each side. There is a lamp on both tables but a 5 amp socket only on one side (normal sockets also on both sides)
The 5 amp sockets (there are 3) in the room are turned on by a dimmer switch.

First of all I do not think that it is a good idea having a dimmer switch feeding 5A socket outlets.

The issues with this are:
1) The lighting load may exceed the rating of the dimmer that is feeding it.
2) Many lights are not compatible with dimmers.
3) Certain lights require a specific type of dimmer.

Can I put a 5amp plug on an extension cord and plug the two lamps into the extension so both lights come on at the same time via dimmer or will that overload things?

I would not recommend this.

My advice would be to install additional 5A sockets, remove the dimmer switch from where it is at present. If dimmers are required install inline dimmers of the flex that supplies the light fittings themselves.

House was renovated completely 2 years ago and is awash with sockets except for this particular place.

Robbie.G

carlson wrote: »

Sorry I am a bit unclear are you saying

If the lamps with standard plugs are plugged into the extension cord with standard sockets and I put a 5 amp plug on the extension and plug it into my 5 amp socket on the wall this will trip everything/be dangerous?

The reason for this is you can't plug something on a standard 13a socket into the extension as the switch is only rated at 6-10a and not through a rcd.

2011

Robbie.G wrote: »

The reason for this is you can't plug something on a standard 13a socket into the extension as the switch is only rated at 6-10a and not through a rcd.

Why would 5A sockets not be fed from an RCD?

I agree that putting a 13A socket on a 5A plug would not be advisable.
The other concern is that an expensive non-dimmable device is plugged into the 13A socket and the dimmer is turned down :eek:

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

First of all I do not think that it is a good idea having a dimmer switch feeding 5A socket outlets.

The issues with this are:
1) The lighting load may exceed the rating of the dimmer that is feeding it.
2) Many lights are not compatible with dimmers.
3) Certain lights require a specific type of dimmer.

This school of thought is relevant to ceiling lighting too not just 5 amp lighting. Do you have an equal view on using dimmers on ceiling or wall lighting?

mikeyjames9

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

This school of thought is relevant to ceiling lighting too not just 5 amp lighting. Do you have an equal view on using dimmers on ceiling or wall lighting?

no it is not the same

the 5amp outlets are for portable lamps(edit typo Arthur Daley)

the 5amp wall outlets are not dedicated to a particular bulb and should be compatible with all lamps strictly speaking

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

This school of thought is relevant to ceiling lighting too not just 5 amp lighting.

Apples and oranges!

Ceiling lighting uses fixed (permanently connected) appliances that have been installed (in theory) by a Registered Electrical Contractor or at least by what CER refers to as a "competent person".

On the other hand socket outlets are for the connection of portable equipment. These are installed so that any device with a suitable plugtop can be connected by a person that is not necessarily electrically competent. This is why the regulations for sockets are very different to those for fixed appliances.

Sir Arthur Daley

Is it ok now to put 5 amp plugs on power tools etc, domestic appliances, tvs other electronics?

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Is it ok now to put 5 amp plugs on power tools etc, domestic appliances, tvs other electronics?

If a person were to make an adapter as described by the OP it would be possible to power devices such as the ones listed in your post from 5A socket outlets. This is not what 5A sockets are designed for.

To say that I would not recommend this would be an understatement

mikeyjames9

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Is it ok now to put 5 amp plugs on power tools etc, domestic appliances, tvs other electronics?

no, they are intended "solely" for table lamps

sockets for "general use "must comply with IS.411

Sir Arthur Daley

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

no, they are intended "solely" for table lamps

sockets for "general use "must comply with IS.411

You said earlier they are for portable units, can you define what is a portable unit?

Bruthal

carlson wrote: »

Sorry I am a bit unclear are you saying

If the lamps with standard plugs are plugged into the extension cord with standard sockets and I put a 5 amp plug on the extension and plug it into my 5 amp socket on the wall this will trip everything/be dangerous?

2011 wrote: »

If a person were to make an adapter as described by the OP it would be possible to power devices such as the ones listed in your post from 5A socket outlets. This is not what 5A sockets are designed for.

To say that I would not recommend this would be an understatement

It's like deja vu this. I remember the exact same thing discussed before. Looks like the op wants to put 5 amp plugs and 13 amp sockets as a lead alright. Not a good idea.

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

You said earlier they are for portable units, can you define what is a portable unit?

Basically it is something that you plug in.

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

Basically it is something that you plug in.

And what is a something?

The reason i ask is isn't there a flaw in 5 amp lighting sockets in terms of electrical design?

mikeyjames9

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

And what is a something?

The reason i ask is isn't there a flaw in 5 amp lighting sockets in terms of electrical design?

what flaw?

they are designed for portable table lamps

are controlled by a switch

are rcd protected

Sir Arthur Daley

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

what flaw?

they are designed for portable table lamps

are controlled by a switch

are rcd protected

And portable units whatever they are .

2011

What is the flaw?
Any electrical appliance that is not permanently connected (such as a cooker or alarm panel) is "portable". A vacuum cleaner would be an example of a portable appliance. If a unit such as a TV were to be fed from a spur outlet it then becomes a fixed appliance and different rules apply.

mikeyjames9

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

And portable units whatever they are .

that was an error

2011

The issue is when devices are used in a way that they are not designed to be used. "Portable equipment" is a term used throughout the regulations, ET101:2008

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

The issue is when devices are used in a way that they are not designed to be used. "Portable equipment" is a term used throughout the regulations, ET101:2008

Is it fair to say every home owner should know this?

mikeyjames9

there may be an argument that the outlets should be marked for their specific purpose

ie ;PORTABLE LIGHTING ONLY

to prevent their misuse with other types of portable appliances

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Is it fair to say every home owner should know this?

My mother doesn't
But she would have enough intelligence not to muck about with electricity.
What's your point?

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

My mother doesn't
But she would have enough intelligence not to muck about with electricity.

Alot of home owners are well capable of wiring a plug and do wire plugs would you agree?

What's your point?

We are getting to it, the night is young yet. Do you still agree that 5 amp sockets are also for portable units?

mikeyjames9

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Alot of home owners are well capable of wiring a plug and do wire plugs would you agree?



We are getting to it, the night is young yet. Do you still agree that 5 amp sockets are also for portable units?

portable "unit" doesn't mean anything

they are specifically for portable lamps

this is all covered in the wiring rules

Robbie.G

2011 wrote: »

Why would 5A sockets not be fed from an RCD?

I agree that putting a 13A socket on a 5A plug would not be advisable.
The other concern is that an expensive non-dimmable device is plugged into the 13A socket and the dimmer is turned down :eek:

If the 5a sockets are controlled from a switch it's highly unlikely they're through the rcd as they're probably fead from a lighting circuit

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Alot of home owners are well capable of wiring a plug and do wire plugs would you agree?

I agree that many people are capable of taking part in and do take part in many different activities that expose them to a degree of risk.
If not done correctly these activities can result in damage to property, injury or a fatality.
These activities include (but are not limited to) the following:

1) Scuba diving.
2) Sailing.
3) Driving a car.
4) Riding a motorbike.
5) Shooting a gun.
6) Welding.
7) Sky diving.
8) Wiring a 13A plug.
9) Crossing the road.

I also feel that some people should not attempt any of the above activities.
But it is not my opinion that counts.

What we aim to do on this forum is explain what would be generally considered "best practice" and inline with the regulations and recommendations made by the ETCI.

So when you say this:

Is it ok now to put 5 amp plugs on power tools etc, domestic appliances, tvs other electronics?

I state that I "would not recommend" it because in my opinion this does not align with best practice.
Furthermore according to 554.0:
"Plugs and sockets for general purposes indoors must comply with I.S. 411."

You can read all about the Statutory Instrument S.I. No. 526 of 1997 that deals with this here.

In the National Rules for Electrical Installations ET101:2008 they define Portable Equipment as:
"Equipment that is designed to be moved while in operation or moved easily from one place to another while connected to the supply."

Fixed equipment is defined as:
"Equipment fastened to a support or otherwise secured at a specific location."

So when reading the regulations it is the above definitions should be referred to.

Do you still agree that 5 amp sockets are also for portable units?

There are sockets intended solely for the connection of standard lamps or table lamps.
The ones that I am familiar with are rated at 5A.
In my opinion table lamps would fit the definition of "portable equipment" provided above .

2011

Robbie.G wrote: »

If the 5a sockets are controlled from a switch it's highly unlikely they're through the rcd as they're probably fead from a lighting circuit

According to National Rules for Electrical Installations 554.5.1 which refers specifically to socket-outlets intended solely for lamps "RCD protection is required for such circuits".

SpaceTime

Seems that BS546 (round pin UK sockets) and Schuko (Continental type 16 amp sockets) are defined in that statutory instrument too.
As specified in sub-clause 4.1 of Irish Standard 180:1973

British Standard 546:1950 including Supplement No. 1 and amendments 1953, 1961, 1969, 1977, 1982, 1987 and 1989.

As specified in sub-clause 4.3 of Irish Standard 180:1973

CEE Publication 7:1963 (Standard Sheets IV and VII) and modifications 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1981 = CEE 7 family of connectors also known as Schuko.

Both were used historically here.

I noticed CEE 7/4 installed quite a bit in Irish hotel rooms these days too.

2011

SpaceTime wrote: »

Seems that BS546 (round pin UK sockets) and Schuko (Continental type 16 amp sockets) are defined in that statutory instrument too.
As specified in sub-clause 4.1 of Irish Standard 180:1973

British Standard 546:1950 including Supplement No. 1 and amendments 1953, 1961, 1969, 1977, 1982, 1987 and 1989.

As specified in sub-clause 4.3 of Irish Standard 180:1973

CEE Publication 7:1963 (Standard Sheets IV and VII) and modifications 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1981 = CEE 7 family of connectors also known as Schuko.

Yes, many different types of socket outlets are permitted by ET101 for different applications.

However according to 554 socket-outlets for "general purposes indoors" must comply with I.S. 411.

SpaceTime

2011 wrote: »

Yes, many different types of socket outlets are permitted by ET101 for different applications.

However according to 554 socket-outlets for "general purposes indoors" must comply with I.S. 411.

Centrally controlled lamps aren't a general purpose though. I suppose the other alternative would be 13amp BS1363 plugs with keyed pins.

I guess using Schuko (CEE 7/4) to provide compatibility with European tourists' devices in hotels wouldn't be general purpose either. I've also seen Schuko installed for an imported tumble dryer once. The machine was drawing more than 3000W so couldn't be fitted with a standard Irish plug.

Schuko's rated 16amps and generally can carry 3500-3600W without issue. I find BS1363 struggles at its max rating sometimes you end up with hot fuses and hot pins.

So, I guess that's probably complaint too as it's not 'general purpose'.

...

The one big concern I'd have about BS546 is that you can still buy plugs that don't have sheathed pins and lighting circuits aren't necessarily RCD-protected, yet you're using them with portable appliances if you've installed sockets on them (regardless of the pin configuration).

See: http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/mk-electric-round-pin-plug-three-pin-fused-white-5a/1050078116/ProductInformation.raction

I've also seen (in a hotel) CEE 7/4 plugs jammed into BS546 5amp sockets (the pins fit perfectly) However, they do not complete the earth connection and because the BS socket's not recessed, you can also shock yourself touching live pins.

2011

SpaceTime wrote: »

Centrally controlled lamps aren't a general purpose though.

I am not suggesting that they are.

I am suggesting that the items in post #10 would be best supplied from a general purpose sockets.

SpaceTime

2011 wrote: »

I am not suggesting that they are.

I am suggesting that the items in post #10 would be best supplied from a general purpose sockets.

Ah, OK.. yeah there's no reason to fit non-standard plugs to those.

I know of one US tourist who brought a multi-plug adaptor to Ireland that included pins for connecting to indian plugs (BS546).
She managed to plug a hairdryer into a dimmed lamp socket and basically blew the dimmer taking out all the lights in the room.

A lot of tourist advice on some of those adaptors / online give ridiculous information for Ireland suggesting that we use several different types of plugs and sockets. It's either based on totally obsolete information from the 1950s or it's just totally wrong.

2011

SpaceTime wrote: »

Ah, OK.. yeah there's no reason to fit non-standard plugs to those.

My point exactly.

I know of one US tourist who brought a multi-plug adaptor to Ireland that included pins for connecting to indian plugs (BS546).
She managed to plug a hairdryer into a dimmed lamp socket and basically blew the dimmer taking out all the lights in the room.

This is the concern that I expressed in post #4.

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

I agree that many people are capable of taking part in and do take part in many different activities that expose them to a degree of risk.
If not done correctly these activities can result in damage to property, injury or a fatality.
These activities include (but are not limited to) the following:

1) Scuba diving.
2) Sailing.
3) Driving a car.
4) Riding a motorbike.
5) Shooting a gun.
6) Welding.
7) Sky diving.
8) Wiring a 13A plug.
9) Crossing the road.

I also feel that some people should not attempt any of the above activities.
But it is not my opinion that counts.

What we aim to do on this forum is explain what would be generally considered "best practice" and inline with the regulations and recommendations made by the ETCI.

So when you say this:


I state that I "would not recommend" it because in my opinion this does not align with best practice.
Furthermore according to 554.0:
"Plugs and sockets for general purposes indoors must comply with I.S. 411."

You can read all about the Statutory Instrument S.I. No. 526 of 1997 that deals with this here.

In the National Rules for Electrical Installations ET101:2008 they define Portable Equipment as:
"Equipment that is designed to be moved while in operation or moved easily from one place to another while connected to the supply."

Fixed equipment is defined as:
"Equipment fastened to a support or otherwise secured at a specific location."

So when reading the regulations it is the above definitions should be referred to.



There are sockets intended solely for the connection of standard lamps or table lamps.
The ones that I am familiar with are rated at 5A.
In my opinion table lamps would fit the definition of "portable equipment" provided above .

Where do i start..
You took up my post all wrong, i was merely asking you a couple of simple questions. This has nothing to do with who knows the most forum rules or whatever else.
I was coming to the point that their is a major flaw in the way 5 amp sockets are wired. If you waited another post you would have found out instead of going away off topic.

mikeyjames9

what is the major flaw?

SpaceTime

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Where do i start..
You took up my post all wrong, i was merely asking you a couple of simple questions. This has nothing to do with who knows the most forum rules or whatever else.
I was coming to the point that their is a major flaw in the way 5 amp sockets are wired. If you waited another post you would have found out instead of going away off topic.

In theory, no you shouldn't really make up adaptor cables for the 5amp sockets that might allow them to be used for normal devices. It would be a little bit of a bad idea as they're there to ensure nothing else is plugged into the circuit other than a lamp.

You can purchase BS546 trailing sockets in 5amp variety, http://www.videk.co.uk/section.php/2751/1/15-5amp-trailing-sockets.

I can't really see why you wouldn't be allowed to simply make up a compatible extension lead.

I've never seen a double adaptor for this kind of socket. Just remember though the maximum load allowed is 5amps (5amps X 220V = 1100W) by design, the reality is the circuit probably shouldn't have anything that heavy plugged into it anyway though.

I'd limit it to maximum 2amps for a luminary (like maximum 400-500W)

Also, I'm not entirely sure if those sockets are protected by an RCD, so to be honest, I wouldn't like using them, especially with metal-bodied lamps or anything that you're going to be touching a lot.

An in-line cable coupler is what would spring to mind too : http://www.diy.com/nav/fix/electrical/plugs-fuses/B-and-Q-Plug-And-Socket-10-Amp-3-Pin-12728594 not sure if that's legal in Ireland or not ?

Robbie.G

SpaceTime wrote: »

In theory, no you shouldn't really make up adaptor cables for the 5amp sockets that might allow them to be used for normal devices. It would be a little bit of a bad idea as they're there to ensure nothing else is plugged into the circuit other than a lamp.


I can't really see why you wouldn't be allowed to simply make up a extension lead


Also, I'm not entirely sure if those sockets are protected by an RCD, so to be honest, I wouldn't like using them, especially with metal-bodied lamps or anything that you're going to be touching a lot.

This was my point exactly.

SpaceTime

Robbie.G wrote: »

This was my point exactly.

Great!
I humbly apologise for trying to help. I won't bother you again.

mikeyjames9

SpaceTime wrote: »

In theory, no you shouldn't really make up adaptor cables for the 5amp sockets that might allow them to be used for normal devices. It would be a little bit of a bad idea as they're there to ensure nothing else is plugged into the circuit other than a lamp.

You can purchase BS546 trailing sockets in 5amp variety, http://www.videk.co.uk/section.php/2751/1/15-5amp-trailing-sockets.

I can't really see why you wouldn't be allowed to simply make up a compatible extension lead.

I've never seen a double adaptor for this kind of socket. Just remember though the maximum load allowed is 5amps (5amps X 220V = 1100W) by design, the reality is the circuit probably shouldn't have anything that heavy plugged into it anyway though.

I'd limit it to maximum 2amps for a luminary (like maximum 400-500W)

Also, I'm not entirely sure if those sockets are protected by an RCD, so to be honest, I wouldn't like using them, especially with metal-bodied lamps or anything that you're going to be touching a lot.

A cable coupler is what would spring to mind too : http://www.diy.com/nav/fix/electrical/plugs-fuses/B-and-Q-Plug-And-Socket-10-Amp-3-Pin-12728594 not sure if that's legal in Ireland or not ?

lighting sockets are RCD protected

thinks it's been said 3-4 times already

there's some possibility of misuse and maybe overheating at the socket but the circuit fixed wiring is protected at the distribution board

SpaceTime

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

lighting sockets are RCD protected

thinks it's been said 3-4 times already

there's some possibility of misuse and maybe overheating at the socket but the circuit fixed wiring is protected at the distribution board

Our lighting sockets most definitely are not RCD protected.
1970s/80s wiring. They're just straight off 10amp MCBs and we don't use them.
Other sockets are all RCD protected though.

Out of curiosity was that legal in the late 70s early 80s?

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

You took up my post all wrong, i was merely asking you a couple of simple questions.

I think you got the answers.

This has nothing to do with who knows the most forum rules or whatever else.

I was coming to the point that their is a major flaw in the way 5 amp sockets are wired.

The flaw that you mentioned in post #16 but have yet to identify.

If you waited another post you would have found out instead of going away off topic.

I'm still waiting.
When will the flaw be revealed ?

Robbie.G

SpaceTime wrote: »

Great!
I humbly apologise for trying to help. I won't bother you again.

I haven't a clue what your on about but I was agreeing with you

mikeyjames9

SpaceTime wrote: »

Our lighting sockets most definitely are not RCD protected.
1970s/80s wiring. They're just straight off 10amp MCBs and we don't use them.
Other sockets are all RCD protected though.

Out of curiosity was that legal in the late 70s early 80s?

it's in the 3rd edition(2000) and 4th edition(2008)

and I would say goes back well before that

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

I'm still waiting.
When will the flaw be revealed ?

Have you the popcorn ready? :cool:

mikeyjames9

in fairness they should be engraved
TABLE LAMP ONLY to prevent inadvertent misuse

but similar low level potential hazards already exist

13amp double sockets rated at 20amp
on 32 amp ring circuits

200 watt bulbs in 100watt lampholders

sustained overload of 13amp outlets with extensions

6amp switches controlling multiple halogens

etc etc

SpaceTime

Wouldn't a sustained overload just blow the 13amp plug's fuse?

mikeyjames9

SpaceTime wrote: »

Wouldn't a sustained overload just blow the 13amp plug's fuse?

they tend to overheat the surroundings

SpaceTime

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

they tend to overheat the surroundings

While they look 'big and safe' I think they're actually a rather flawed design. The fuse holder seems to be very flimsy and prone to not sitting right which can result in overheating. Also, because the socket's not recessed, the huge pins actually only make contact at the tips (to avoid live pins touching your fingers). Again, this seems to result in hot pins if they're fully loaded.

I've also had the back come clean off a plug once while pulling it out. Seems kinda stupid to have the entire thing relying on a single screw. With Schuko plugs the screws usually go in via the sides so they aren't actually load bearing on the threads of the screw.

Not quite sure that BS1363 is all that great a system.

carlson

I see the discussion has escalated beyond laymans terms!

All my rooms have dimmers connected to 5 amp sockets, I also have spots with dimmers , in fact there are dimmers in every room except for the kids rooms.( they still have switches connected to 5 amp plugs) the architect was really into lighting!

My thinking is that there are 3 x 5amp sockets in this particular room but only 2 are usable as one is up against a wall with nothing nearby

One has a standard lamp plugged in and the other has a lamp on the table beside the sofa

Is there a limit on the input to a particular socket or is the limit done on the circuit of the room. i.e. can two lamps be plugged into one 5 amp socket if the third one is never used.


I have put 5 amp sockets on a lot of lamps in the house - only on one occasion I had to get a special bulb but the rest have worked fine.