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Students: Should they get free fees and do they benefit society?

steddyeddy

I'm sorry about the ars-y thread title. I'm just starting a thread on this because a poster on another thread brought up an interesting point. The poster maintained students are funded by the taxpayer and "bleeding the country white". It's true to say that there are ever increasing numbers going into education and it is going to cost the taxpayer massively. Are free fees a good idea, sustainable or fit for purpose ? As far as I know they were introduced to widen the participation rate amongst students from less well off families.

The poster also maintained society doesn't get a great return from students and that PhDs are just career students. So are we getting a good return for our money and are PhDs post docs wasters?

In my opinion some members of society can afford fees and the money would be better spent on secondary level education. I certainly don't think all PhDs are wasters and on the large I think they do benefit society.

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Capt'n Midnight

yawn

option a - it would cost more to have them on the dole

option b - we should actually be investing the money in primary

Nib

Free fees? Haha

Get a part time job and pay your own fucking way.

steddyeddy

Nib wrote: »

Free fees? Haha

Get a part time job and pay your own fucking way.

I'm sort of inclined to agree. Some students who never worked lack work ethic.

srsly78

PhD students get used as slave labour in unis op.

Shakespeare's Sister

srsly78 wrote: »

PhD students get used as slave labour in unis op.

Not really when it's their choice and they know the drill.

Amirani

Nib wrote: »

Free fees? Haha

Get a part time job and pay your own fucking way.

It's unlikely that most students would be able to pay full-fees (up to 10k or so) as well as rent and bills out of the income from a part time job. Could perhaps barely cover the fees if working 20 hours per week for the full year.

srsly78

Magaggie wrote: »

Not really when it's their choice and they know the drill.

Yes really. Even more hilariously, post-docs also get used as cheap labour

steddyeddy

Yea I'm a PhD and half the little jobs I have to do involve making up new chemicals to save money for the lecturer instead of him ordering them in.

MouseTail

Free fees did not work as intended, they did not serve to increase participation from those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and has led to a funding starved third level, with a plethora of micky mouse courses and a high drop out rate. I am in favour of introducing a Government backed loan system whereby loans are repaid once salary reaches a certain level at a fair interest %.

[Deleted User]

MouseTail wrote: »

Free fees did not work as intended, they did not serve to increase participation from those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and has led to a funding starved third level, with a plethora of micky mouse courses and a high drop out rate. I am in favour of introducing a Government backed loan system whereby loans are repaid once salary reaches a certain level at a fair interest %.

I'd be someone who actually did benefit from free fees and would never have been able to go uni without grant assistance, but I'd actually almost be in favour of this system.. although it would be better of course if there were actually jobs available for students in Ireland once they finish and they can pay it back through their higher level of tax over their lifetime.

steddyeddy

MouseTail wrote: »

Free fees did not work as intended, they did not serve to increase participation from those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and has led to a funding starved third level, with a plethora of micky mouse courses and a high drop out rate. I am in favour of introducing a Government backed loan system whereby loans are repaid once salary reaches a certain level at a fair interest %.

Well I can't think of anything wrong with this system. It puts everyone on equal footing.

Amirani

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I can't think of anything wrong with this system. It puts everyone on equal footing.

Main issue is that emigrants get away with free fees. Encourages a brain drain.

Annasopra

Yes and yes

steddyeddy

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Main issue is that emigrants get away with free fees. Encourages a brain drain.

Well we'll always have a brain drain in this country. We only have so many posts that need to be filled in mentally demanding jobs.

FizzleSticks

This post has been deleted.

BRB

If we don't have free fees we'd have significantly less graduates available in the workforce. Most of my friends in uni are only there because of free fees and still they struggle.

I benefit from free fees, grant and can barely afford books for my modules. I actually had to cut my losses and attempt to use the 1 book in te library fr my course along with 50-80 students.

Free fees are needed. Yes not everyone will benefit the state but a good % would. The lack of jobs out there for certain graduates is also a reason they opt to stay in this education system longer in order to increase their chances of getting a job when they leave. This probably has a negative effect short term but long term it would benefit.

diveout

I think if you are getting free or subsidized education from the state to go to medical school and become a doctor, there should be a contract where you are obliged to stay in the country and work. Otherwise you are just paying for educated people to emigrate.

rozeboosje

Here's an idea: fees are payed for, and the student incurs a debt for that amount. The debt, however, is offset by a tax break for the first 10 years after your study while you're employed in the State. So if you stay in Ireland and put your education to use HERE, you effectively got free fees. If you decide to [bleep] off abroad, you owe the money.

LETHAL LADY

Do grants for your second year in college take into account the results achieved in your first year and so on?

MouseTail

It doesn't exist yet for a couple of reasons
a) it would require quite a lot of up front investment to set up the loan system.
b) it would be a brave Minister for Finance who risked all those middle class votes.

As for the brain drain argument, there have been studies done in countries with a similar demographic and history of migration and it doesn't hold up, a student loan system does not correlate with increased emigration.

steddyeddy

rozeboosje wrote: »

Here's an idea: fees are payed for, and the student incurs a debt for that amount. The debt, however, is offset by a tax break for the first 10 years after your study while you're employed in the State. So if you stay in Ireland and put your education to use HERE, you effectively got free fees. If you decide to [bleep] off abroad, you owe the money.

That's really smart actually.

Amirani

diveout wrote: »

I think if you are getting free or subsidized education from the state to go to medical school and become a doctor, there should be a contract where you are obliged to stay in the country and work. Otherwise you are just paying for educated people to emigrate.

That would be against EU law.

Amirani

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

Do grants for your second year in college take into account the results achieved in your first year and so on?

No, only whether you passed or failed.

shruikan2553

The only reason I got into college was free fees and in a year or 2 after college I will be in the 52% tax bracket. Otherwise I would be on the dole.

Im not against the idea of a loan system but the problem is it would make emigration even more attractive.

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

Do grants for your second year in college take into account the results achieved in your first year and so on?

Nope, the person who gets 40% gets the same as the person with 85%, its all just based on income.

rozeboosje

MouseTail wrote: »

A student loan system does not correlate with increased emigration.

There was a student loan system when I went to University in Holland. But you owed the money no matter what, and when I emigrated the debt followed me abroad.

steddyeddy

MouseTail wrote: »

It doesn't exist yet for a couple of reasons
a) it would require quite a lot of up front investment to set up the loan system.
b) it would be a brave Minister for Finance who risked all those middle class votes.

As for the brain drain argument, there have been studies done in countries with a similar demographic and history of migration and it doesn't hold up, a student loan system does not correlate with increased emigration.

Why would the middle class be against it?

rozeboosje

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's really smart actually.

Not sure how practical the idea is, but maybe worth thinking through.... thanks :-)

MouseTail

steddyeddy wrote: »

Why would the middle class be against it?

Because they benefit most from free fees.

[Deleted User]

diveout wrote: »

I think if you are getting free or subsidized education from the state to go to medical school and become a doctor, there should be a contract where you are obliged to stay in the country and work. Otherwise you are just paying for educated people to emigrate.

There is a problem in Austria at the moment with large amounts of German students who don't get in to medicine courses in Germany coming here to study as their are no prerequisite grades required in Austria, education is open for everyone as a right. It's only after you start the course that you take 'entrance exams'. The problem is of though the number of study places doesn't increase that much and will the German students remain in Austria after they graduate? Doubtful, but it would be illegal to favour Austrian students for the limited number of places.

CSSE09

Considering how low the higher rate of tax kicks in and 52% of your wage is gone I wouldn't be in favour of a grad tax, by all means limit the number of places on the mickey mouse courses or reduce their subsidy but certain courses should remain subsidised.