***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

dxhound2005

Banjo String wrote: »

Sorry, I meant reduce my pressure so as I won't be availing of their services. . (I've been preaching on about it long enough, I thought it'd be obvious)

You have indeed, and your were amongst the foremost in the Don't Register Don't Pay brigade on the HHC.

I don't know if you are motivated by greed and selfishness or some wish to have a mass movement against laws passed by the present government. Given that you would be a political opponent of the parties in power.

Either way you seem to take great pride in your disregard for democracy and the rule of law.

Guy:Incognito

Banjo String wrote: »

What part of that is a question?

The part a few weeks ago when I asked why you were dliberately misleading with your sig by not mentioning the party within it that contradicts the sig itself and its message.

But I suppose its easy when people will believe any old rubbish if it backs up the poitn they want it too.

Banjo String

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You've forgotten that it is set up as a company. You can invest money in a company but afaik you can't just take it out. It has to be paid as a dividend which would be recorded.

Which part of " The money collected by the local property tax, will be 100%, ring-fenced for local services" does setting up the biggest quango since the hse fit into?

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You still haven't said how your ppsn number gives access to all your financial records.

I have explained how it's linked to sw/employment/pension.

Handy if they had to deduct at source.

Banjo String

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The part a few weeks ago when I asked why you were dliberately misleading with your sig by not mentioning the party within it that contradicts the sig itself and its message.

But I suppose its easy when people will believe any old rubbish if it backs up the poitn they want it too.

I believe I did answer you at the time, I'm not gonna bother trawling through the thread, but I believe I posted something along the lines of "copying and pasting from the govt site" and me "not being responsible for the text placed on it"

Little CuChulainn

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

Just a wee anecdote unrelated to any other post.
I live in a rural area and my meter was installed some years back...or so I thought.
I went out to investigate it for the first time this morning and all that's there is the plastic WM sign..no hatch cover...no meter.
I contacted the guy I bought the house from. Our pipe line crosses the bothareen about 500 meters down from our house (it comes off a water scheme spur) and comes to the back of the house across a field.
So they (IW)simple stuck a sign on the side of the road though there is no water piping there at all!!!!!!
How many performance related bonuses again?

I doubt it was Irish Water if it was done years ago.

Banjo String wrote: »

Which part of " The money collected by the local property tax, will be 100%, ring-fenced for local services" does setting up the biggest quango since the hse fit into?

So you've changed to claiming the property charge and not income tax, vat or motor tax should be what pays for water. The property tax was never going towards water.

Banjo String wrote: »

I have explained how it's linked to sw/employment/pension.

Handy if they had to deduct at source.

No you've said it is linked but you still have not shown how someone can access that information just by possessing your ppsn.

Guy:Incognito

Banjo String wrote: »

I believe I did answer you at the time, I'm not gonna bother trawling through the thread, but I believe I posted something along the lines of "copying and pasting from the govt site" and me "not being responsible for the text placed on it"

Fair enough if thats the case but lets be honest, it was a misleading claim you were happy to propagate despite knowing it was misleading at best and quite frankly wrong.

Guy:Incognito

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

Just a wee anecdote unrelated to any other post.
I live in a rural area and my meter was installed some years back...or so I thought.
I went out to investigate it for the first time this morning and all that's there is the plastic WM sign..no hatch cover...no meter.
I contacted the guy I bought the house from. Our pipe line crosses the bothareen about 500 meters down from our house (it comes off a water scheme spur) and comes to the back of the house across a field.
So they (IW)simple stuck a sign on the side of the road though there is no water piping there at all!!!!!!
How many performance related bonuses again?

Ive work on sites in the last 10 years where , rather than put in standard stop cocks that would then have to be dug up , the larger units were install to accomodate meters in the future. This was before IW was founded. They say meter on them , again so they dotn need to be replaced, but pre date IW. People are forever giving out about the lack of forward planning in this country, so when it happens we shouldnt really complain.

Banjo String

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

So you've changed to claiming the property charge and not income tax, vat or motor tax should be what pays for water. The property tax was never going towards water.

Stop being deliberately obtuse. I made it quite clear in the post you quoted I was referring to Irish Water (the quango) being set up and paid for from funds collected by the lpt.

You know that, stop trying to pretend you didn't.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

No you've said it is linked but you still have not shown how someone can access that information just by possessing your ppsn.

Ask the people getting their lpt deducted from source.

Guy:Incognito

Banjo String wrote: »

Ask the people getting their lpt deducted from source.

Were the ESB ever able to deduct bills from source.

Banjo String

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Were the ESB ever able to deduct bills from source.

When was the last time vat was raised to pay anyone's ESB bills, ditto motor tax and income tax.

Knight who says Meh

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I doubt it was Irish Water if it was done years ago.



Sorry. years ago relative to the current debacle. Two years ago perhaps when metering and paying first started being a thing.

Tony EH

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK, let's simplify this a bit and step back from all the Freeman/PPS usage/Contact stuff for a minute...

The bottom line is this..

Irish Water has already shown itself to be incompetent, run by incompetent wasteful hangers-on, and incapable of getting it's straightforward (if you believe the pro-camp here) message across without making a mess of it - this week's drama around Landlords v Tenant responsibilties is just the last example.

Whether the pro-side like it or not, IW was set (until Tuesday anyway) to double or triple charge us for a service we already pay for.
Only because of the march last weekend did Enda and co panic and throw in tax credits in an attempt to soften the blow while simultaneously clapping themselves on the back over people being on average €8 a week "better off" :rolleyes:

However, once/if IW do get their "customer" database you can be sure of a few things...

1. The prices will only go up. It has feck all to do with conservation either - it's already been stated and agreed that IW can increase prices if revenue fell as a result of people watching their usage. Look at the post-08 Motor Tax situation for precedent - people went out and bought low-emission BMWs so they hiked those rates 2 years ago as well.

2. The infrastructure won't significantly change. You have people who haven't been able to drink the water that comes out of the tap for years, or have to soften or otherwise treat the water so it doesn't wreck their appliances - and these people are STILL expected to sign up and cough up unless they're on an "approved" boil notice list?

Ultimately the work will still be the responsibility of the same people who've been looking after it till now - the only place the extra money will go is into the pockets of the executives and bonuses for the staff for doing a job that didn't need to be done.

3. This whole exercise has been designed as a revenue exercise to appease the EU/IMF, not fix our water supplies. It's the normal Irish approach of doing something without ACTUALLY doing something about the real problems, and setting it up as a job creation scheme for the connected. Once they have their database, and we get past GE 2016, you can be certain that IW (if it still exists) will be privatised and sold to someone like O'Brien (FG have a track-record in this after all and the likely result of the GE is probably a FF/FG coalition because Paddy and Mary won't objectively consider anything else - not that there's much to choose from of course!)

4. The vast majority of people who have a problem with all this are ordinary people who have already been stretched enough by FG/LAB's cronyism and incompetence to say nothing of FF's legacy.

Most people don't give a fook about Freeman shyte, or PPS numbers - but they realise that if they hand over this information (cynically positioned as an "application pack") then they are only sealing the fate of water provisioning in Ireland as well as adding another bill to their list while getting nothing back for it (8 quid a week and a 100 Euro tax credit - if you're working - won't go very far).

More than that - people have FINALLY had enough of Enda and Co's cynical cash grabs. FG and LAB were elected on a campaign of promised reform, transparency and a "new way" of doing business. Instead it's been "business as usual" at the top - indeed, you could say that FG/LAB are actually WORSE as at least with FF, you know what you're getting!

Irish Water is simply the last straw for many people - and about time too really!

Without a doubt, the best post on the entire thread.

dxhound2005

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I doubt it was Irish Water if it was done years ago.



Sorry. years ago relative to the current debacle. Two years ago perhaps when metering and paying first started being a thing.

I didn't understand your wee anecdote. Who are WM? Who put in meters two years ago? Did you get any bills? Did you sign a contract? What has the water scheme got to do with it?

Guy:Incognito

Banjo String wrote: »

When was the last time vat was raised to pay anyone's ESB bills, ditto motor tax and income tax.

I'll have to read it another few times but I'm fairly sure that isnt an answer to anything I asked.


Again, move on, stuff has to be paid for. The country is costing more to run and the tax base needs to be broadened.But then you know that because you can read, so that answer isnt going to change. And once more, should the government tell anyone who wasnt on the dole 15 years ago that theres no money to pay them now becuase we, we werent pay for you then so we're not paying for you now?

Knight who says Meh

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Ive work on sites in the last 10 years where , rather than put in standard stop cocks that would then have to be dug up , the larger units were install to accomodate meters in the future. This was before IW was founded. They say meter on them , again so they dotn need to be replaced, but pre date IW. People are forever giving out about the lack of forward planning in this country, so when it happens we shouldnt really complain.

But Im on a 'grass up the middle' back road. There is no hope of any water infrastructure ever passing where they put the water meter sign. The next house is 2 km away and has a well. !
They literally stuck a sign in the ditch where a stop cock would prob' be were our house in a built up area. I just find it a little amusing.

dxhound2005

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

But Im on a 'grass up the middle' back road. There is no hope of any water infrastructure ever passing where they put the water meter sign. The next house is 2 km away and has a well. !
They literally stuck a sign in the ditch where a stop cock would prob' be were our house in a built up area. I just find it a little amusing.

But who is supplying your water and do you pay for it?

Little CuChulainn

Banjo String wrote: »

Stop being deliberately obtuse. I made it quite clear in the post you quoted I was referring to Irish Water (the quango) being set up and paid for from funds collected by the lpt.

You know that, stop trying to pretend you didn't.

No I didn't have a clue what you were talking about to be honest. You don't seem capable of answering something directly.

Banjo String wrote: »

Ask the people getting their lpt deducted from source.

By the Revenue. I'll make this as simple as possible for you. imagine you are a criminal and you find someones pps number. What can you do with it that you couldn't do with their name and address? It's a really simple question.

Knight who says Meh

dxhound2005 wrote: »

But who is supplying your water and do you pay for it?

I dont know what youre getting at here. Its very very simple. Read my original post.
I connected to a water scheme some years back. The pipe crosses a road far from my house and comes across a field. Some one, Irish water perhaps put in a 'Water meter' sign outside my gate where there is not nor will ever be a water pipe. There is no meter, there is nothing to connect to.

dxhound2005

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

I dont know what youre getting at here. Its very very simple. Read my original post.
I connected to a water scheme some years back. The pipe crosses a road far from my house and comes across a field. Some one, Irish water perhaps put in a 'Water meter' sign outside my gate where there is not nor will ever be a water pipe. There is no meter, there is nothing to connect to.

Then you are not a customer of IW. Someone deserves a bonus for that.

_Kaiser_

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Imagine you are a criminal and you find someones pps number. What can you do with it that you couldn't do with their name and address? It's a really simple question.

Off the top of my head...

- Claim welfare payments fraudently
- Open bank accounts in their name, get credit cards etc
- Get a driver's license
- Get a medical card and access Drug Payment Schemes

A PPS is a valuable (but no not the only) piece of the puzzle if you want to commit identity fraud, but it's certainly not required for paying a utility bill!

Banjo String

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

No I didn't have a clue what you were talking about to be honest. You don't seem capable of answering something directly.

Ok, fair enough. I probably didn't make myself clear I was referring to a quango being created from money that was supposedly, 100% being ring-fenced for local services only. When I posted this, which you replied to.

Which part of " The money collected by the local property tax, will be 100%, ring-fenced for local services" does setting up the biggest quango since the hse fit into? 

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92659199&postcount=5861

I can see how that was confusing tbh.:)

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

By the Revenue. I'll make this as simple as possible for you. imagine you are a criminal and you find someones pps number. What can you do with it that you couldn't do with their name and address? It's a really simple question.

Sell it on. Just for starters.

Banjo String

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Off the top of my head...

- Claim welfare payments fraudently
- Open bank accounts in their name, get credit cards etc
- Get a driver's license
- Get a medical card and access Drug Payment Schemes

A PPS is a valuable (but no not the only) piece of the puzzle if you want to commit identity fraud, but it's certainly not required for paying a utility bill!

They know that already Kaiser, I dont understand why they are claiming to be so naive tbh.

Little CuChulainn

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Off the top of my head...

- Claim welfare payments fraudently
- Open bank accounts in their name, get credit cards etc
- Get a driver's license
- Get a medical card and access Drug Payment Schemes

A PPS is a valuable (but no not the only) piece of the puzzle if you want to commit identity fraud, but it's certainly not required for paying a utility bill!

No you cannot do that stuff with only a pps number. You need photo ID to claim welfare and open bank accounts. Your driving licence has nothing to do with your ppsn. And you need more than a ppsn to claim medical benefits.

dxhound2005

Banjo String wrote: »

They know that already Kaiser, I dont understand why they are claiming to be so naive tbh.

We also know that thousands of banks, credit unions and landlords have hundreds of thousands of PPS numbers. IW is no more or no less susceptible to a rogue employee or criminal hackers misusing PPS numbers they have gathered than any other entity.

The argument about whether they should have been authorised to gather them is redundant. That is what the legislation permits.

Little CuChulainn

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

No you cannot do that stuff with only a pps number. You need photo ID to claim welfare and open bank accounts. Your driving licence has nothing to do with your ppsn. And you need more than a ppsn to claim medical benefits.

You also need a utility bill, like ESB, Phone, Registration acknowledgement from LPT, Household Charge, Irish Water ......

Satriale

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Maybe they should just take your word for it on how many kids are in the house etc? It's not a big stretch to think that there would be more allowances claimed for water for children than there are children in the state......

"A thief believes everyone steals"

Whats wrong with taking everybodies word? Why automatically assume that the 4 million people you serve are dishonest? And would lie to get their hands on a few gallons of feckin water!

It would have been a very simple task to tally up the claims for children with CSO figures a few years down the line and if there was a significant problem then ask for PPS numbers.

PPS muddied the waters(excuse the pun) and added an unnecessary layer of bureacracy that most normal people could clearly see and clearly dont want!!

Tony EH

dxhound2005 wrote: »

We also know that thousands of banks, credit unions and landlords have hundreds of thousands of PPS numbers...

A bank can't sell that information when it gets sold off to a third party though, like IW will.

They've already stated that PPS numbers will be treated as an "asset".

Simply put, it's something they don't need and people don't want to give to them.

dxhound2005

Satriale wrote: »

"A thief believes everyone steals"

Whats wrong with taking everybodies word? Why automatically assume that the 4 million people you serve are dishonest? And would lie to get their hands on a few gallons of feckin water!

It would have been a very simple task to tally up the claims for children with CSO figures a few years down the line and if there was a significant problem then ask for PPS numbers.

PPS muddied the waters(excuse the pun) and added an unnecessary layer of bureacracy that most normal people could clearly see and clearly dont want!!

Did you miss the bit where your fellow campaigners have called on people to deliberately record false information on the form and return it?

dxhound2005

Tony EH wrote: »

A bank can't sell that information when it gets sold off to a third party though, like IW will.

They've already stated that PPS numbers will be treated as an "asset".

Simply put, it's something they don't need and people don't want to give to them.

Banks can be and do get sold. Whoever buys a bank buys the details of the account holders.

Guy:Incognito

Satriale wrote: »

"A thief believes everyone steals"

Whats wrong with taking everybodies word? Why automatically assume that the 4 million people you serve are dishonest? And would lie to get their hands on a few gallons of feckin water!

It would have been a very simple task to tally up the claims for children with CSO figures a few years down the line and if there was a significant problem then ask for PPS numbers.

PPS muddied the waters(excuse the pun) and added an unnecessary layer of bureacracy that most normal people could clearly see and clearly dont want!!

Its not telling lies to get water, its telling lies to not pay for water your getting. You can use and pay for all the water you like without giving your pps number, thats a choice your free to make.

So why will no one have issues handing over PPS numbers a couple of years from now?