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Drinking, consent, and rape

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  • Wibbs wrote: »
    Boys oh boys I don't even know where to start with this.
    What a shaming sentence, usual feminists tactics.. Not good behavior for getting men to date feminists.

    It advertising for men to keep away.... Well done, keep it up..




  • limklad wrote: »
    I fully agree. When I was dating, I usually end the date as soon as I find out the woman is a feminist. They are illogical and do not thinks thing through properly and get very emotional if they feminist beliefs are criticizes or challenged.
    feminism
    ˈfɛmɪnɪz(ə)m/
    noun: feminism
    the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.
    Terrifying

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  • Wibbs wrote: »
    Boys oh boys I don't even know where to start with this.

    I can understand that. If I were on a date with a MRA I'd be gone soooo fast.... anger city.




  • I could never ever date somebody with such ridiculous views, with respect to your partner, OP.




  • limklad wrote: »
    I fully agree. When I was dating, I usually end the date as soon as I find out the woman is a feminist.
    I wouldn't jump to conclusions. Many self-identifying feminists use the term because they erroneously identify feminism with gender equality. Or because they reject sexism. Or for various other reasons.

    In reality they probably don't know much about the movement or it's various schools of ideology and would be horrified my what is being peddled as mainstream feminism nowadays. That some do realize is one of the reasons that many women, people, are increasingly choosing to reject the label.

    So I wouldn't write anyone off simply because they used the 'F' word. It's what brand of the 'F' word that matters and that takes a little more probing. For example, if they think that car insurance costs should be gender based (where women would pay less) but health insurance should not (where women would pay more), that is a far better sign of the person you're with.

    And an asshole is an asshole, regardless of what ideology they claim to follow.
    28064212 wrote: »
    the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.
    You don't see the problem with this?


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  • 28064212 wrote: »
    Terrifying

    Nazi were for freedom too, and equal rights for their own people. Read their speeches. Reality and actions are two different things in how you treat people.

    As My late grandmother says "Actions speak louder than words".




  • limklad wrote: »
    What a shaming sentence, usual feminists tactics.. Not good behavior for getting men to date feminists.

    It advertising for men to keep away.... Well done, keep it up..
    I'm a card carrying Online Feminist(TM) now? Me? :pac:

    There's a whole heap of third wave feminism(or is it fourth, I get confused) I consider inaccurate, or over reaction to score political points or just plain daft. However it does not mean that I'm anti equality or anti feminism(of the non crazy US "women's studies" kind). Not by a long chalk.

    As TC said:
    And an asshole is an asshole, regardless of what ideology they claim to follow.

    Coming out with a blanket statement of "I usually end the date as soon as I find out the woman is a feminist. They are illogical and do not thinks thing through properly and get very emotional if they feminist beliefs are criticizes or challenged." is beyond juvenile in thought and execution. Sure it's an opinion, but yet again that's being confused with fact and that's what I was pointing out.
    limklad wrote: »
    Nazi were for freedom too, and equal rights for their own people.
    Godwin as well. The gift that keeps on giving.

    Few enough were innocent in the past, few enough are innocent in the present, we just don’t know why yet.





  • I wouldn't jump to conclusions.

    I do not jump to conclusions. I do agree to much of what you say. I refer to how people say the words and their tone. A trick I learnt as a kid from dogs. They read emotions and tones better than most adults. It just Dog and most animals cannot identify fear from fight.

    Most women identity themselves as feminists go on to tell blatant lies propagated by other especially hardcore feminists. I usually end the date as say it not a man you want, It is a woman.

    They never spend the time to look at their literature and used their own assumptions to justify their causes and hurt they put on others. My mother was a feminist and she destroyed her family long term. She now is lonely and bitter. My Grandmothers and aunts and neighbors were not. They lived in the real world. They knew how to treat each other. I never use my experience with my mother to taint my views on feminists, the more I hear feminists stories the less I believe. I hear hate and disgust by many a feminists, even one who are not hard core. I hear shaming comments of feminist woman on men who are often confused on what they have supposedly done. I know many women who use the same shaming tactics. Where is the respect and honor in that behavior? There is none. It all about control,not community driven. It not about encouraging community spirit. It is driving men to behave in a different manner , such as metro sexual, Men going their own way, men burring their head, men committing suicide as they feel they do not know how to fit in. men going crazy that were relativity stable .

    As an engineer. I study data and errors that creep into statistics. I know how easily stats are skewed and the danger to misinterpreted and how bias can effect the results, even one own bias. I also study patterns, I come up with assumptions and put them to real hard test. I am my own worst critics when I analyses my data and assumptions. I keep looking from different angles and points of views. Others at work get me to review their work, As I see problems when other do not see. I do the same with my work and get other opinions. I do not hide from problems, I head into them and figure them out and often people do not like what I see. I do get to too close to the bone for them.

    The more I study and see feminist dogma is destroying families and communities. The denial of DV committed by women on men and children is horrendous by feminists. Where is the equality? Where are the feminists in getting equality for Jail sentences? Instead they are calling for less sentences for women who commit the same crimes as men and they want men to have longer sentences. Senator Ivana Bacik is one Feminist. Imagine the Rocommon mother who raped, mistreated and neglected badly her own children loose in society. Or the grandmother in Rathkeale who uses her grandchildren to harass, degrade and humiliate an old man for money. I bet Ivana have nothing to say about his right to live in peace or the children to be treated right by their own mother. Where is the equality there from Ivana? Right now she starting on petty crimes that women are jail for. Next is serious crimes. She has express that women should not be jailed.

    She use shaming tactics such as "Bishops hate women"
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/senator-ivana-bacik-catholic-bishops-hate-women-28956668.html
    When the opposite is true and it is women who are supporting the churches. Women far outnumber men at masses. It did not stop her from committing shaming tactics, to humiliate. Where is equality and respect for others? It is hugely missing.

    There is less and less good role models for children. Over time, Less and less good men are dealing with children and children are losing out. They are losing out in how to deal with their own troubled emotions when one set of methods do not work for them. Feminists like to think only their methods is right and rest are wrong.

    I hear lies that all Men always had the right to vote. It is not true. feminists like to think it it them who got women the right to vote. It also not true. Women Suffragette started right after men suffragettes got the right to vote. Most men never had the right to vote. Only a few men and many a women have far more power than men over many centuries. Many men had always protected women and children and did much to their own life to help protect them. Feminists reject this claims and say It always men who kill, harm and rape women and children. Yes there were men who did it there was always other men who protect the women and children. It also women who harm and hurt other women and children too. The shaming tactics come out in force when you identify the insane logic by them.

    There is more and more men who now do not care about what others think as they been shamed and they do crazy rebellious things. Yes, there is real crazies out there, not just men but women too. I just keep seeing the same terrible patterns repeating over and over again. The common thread I see in recent decades are feminists are the main driver of the cycle of fear, shaming and depression, anger, etc.
    Another one of my late grandmother quotes "If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes truth to those who hear it."




  • limklad wrote: »
    Most women identity themselves as feminists go on to tell blatant lies propagated by other especially hardcore feminists.
    ...
    limklad wrote: »
    As an engineer. I study data and errors that creep into statistics. I know how easily stats are skewed and the danger to misinterpreted and how bias can effect the results, even one own bias
    I think you should study a bit harder

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  • limklad wrote: »
    As an engineer. I study data and errors that creep into statistics. I know how easily stats are skewed and the danger to misinterpreted and how bias can effect the results, even one own bias. I also study patterns, I come up with assumptions and put them to real hard test. I am my own worst critics when I analyses my data and assumptions. I keep looking from different angles and points of views

    This seems at odds to your opening statement and general view in this thread.

    There's a lot of truth in what you posted, but you're falling foul of the base rate fallacy in your outlook - not something I'd associate with someone who's statistically astute and willing to criticise their own thinking. There's so many broad streams of feminism, to simply silo them all together is pretty crazy in my opinion. There's just as much diversity in opinion there as there is between father's rights groups and that guy in Santa Barbara on the men's rights spectrum.

    How about next time your on a date, you find out what kind of a "feminist" your date is and make a decision based on that? It's not quite putting your assumptions to "real hard test" like you're used to, but it's something I guess.


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  • limklad wrote: »
    I usually end the date as say it not a man you want, It is a woman.
    What, they're lesbians?
    They never spend the time to look at their literature and used their own assumptions to justify their causes and hurt they put on others.
    Some do, certainly. However, you'd be surprised how many are utterly oblivious to many of the positions held by mainstream feminism. People ascribe to labels without having a clue as to what those labels really mean all the time.
    My mother was a feminist and she destroyed her family long term. She now is lonely and bitter.
    There are always going to be assholes, but you cannot allow bad experience you've had or witnessed to turn you into a paranoid.

    Certainly, I would agree that feminism - as an ideology or movement - is fundamentally broken. It represents the interests of one gender and is happy to ignore or even choose a path detrimental to equality of the genders for the benefit of that gender.

    But a lot of 'feminists' genuinely can't see this. They still think you can serve two conflicting aims. Many are completely unaware of the misandrist nonsense such as what the OP's girlfriend came out with. Many disagree with such views, yet still consider themselves feminists.

    So it's not black and white.
    As an engineer. I study data and errors that creep into statistics. I know how easily stats are skewed and the danger to misinterpreted and how bias can effect the results, even one own bias.
    Then you should be able to recognize that your position is flawed. If you believe that one should seek an objective truth, you should be the first to accept that much of your argument has been subjective and emotional.




  • Wibbs wrote: »
    Good points TC.


    True enough. Actually given your example, I saw a friend of a friend who was at the receiving end of spousal abuse being asked to leave his house(which he paid for before his partner came along) by the police after an incident one evening where she attacked him leaving him cut and bruised. She claimed he hit her and that was that. Even though he was the one injured and is a very big bloke. Add in that there are precious few if any resources for abused men like him. Yep my previous angle was a bit arseways alright.

    I can't entirely blame feminism for that particular chain of events. Women had and still do have second status, so it is demeaning to come forward and admit defeat or vulnerability to a second status being. It's the tail wagging the dog. But I can point to them assisting and creating a perception of prejudice when viewing a DV scene which contributes to making it harder for a guy to make his case. There are two dynamics at play.

    The failure of law enforcement to be trained enough to detect defensive and offensive wounds so they don't arrest the wrong person... is that feminism's fault.. maybe partially? I dunno.

    Your friend of a friend being asked to leave the house...yes not fair...however at least he didn't get charged or arrested. That could potentially ruin a career especially one where there guarda vetting, affect custody arrangements if there are children involved. I know of a police man whose career is entirely destroyed because of a fight he got into with his sister who was also a cop but kept her job. So the "war on domestic violence" completely supported and fueled by feminist groups has certainly built on the second status.




  • diveout wrote: »
    Women had and still do have second status, so it is demeaning to come forward and admit defeat or vulnerability to a second status being.
    Honestly, I don't think that one can say this - at least with any authority.

    Certainly discrimination against women does still exist, but as with what is left of the pay gap, how much of this is because of gender and how much of this is because women still retain an effective monopoly on childcare - a monopoly that feminism has done absolutely nothing to challenge it (and supporting the opportunity for to take parental leave, without affording them any rights isn't challenging it) and it is this rather than their gender that is behind that gap.

    Meanwhile laws literally exist that discriminate quite blatantly against men. Do any exist that do the same against women? And add divorce, conscription, health, safety at work and so on and it starts to look suspiciously like men are more likely to have second status than women on balance.




  • Honestly, I don't think that one can say this - at least with any authority.

    Certainly discrimination against women does still exist, but as with what is left of the pay gap, how much of this is because of gender and how much of this is because women still retain an effective monopoly on childcare - a monopoly that feminism has done absolutely nothing to challenge it (and supporting the opportunity for to take parental leave, without affording them any rights isn't challenging it) and it is this rather than their gender that is behind that gap.

    Meanwhile laws literally exist that discriminate quite blatantly against men. Do any exist that do the same against women? And add divorce, conscription, health, safety at work and so on and it starts to look suspiciously like men are more likely to have second status than women on balance.

    While those are all valid points for debate, it still remains that women are the weaker sex and the heroic model is still built into masculinity.

    I still hear it every so often by a parent or grandparent or on the playground..."You are scared of a girl!!!" in that nanny nanny poo poo voice. It's still there.




  • diveout wrote: »
    I still hear it every so often by a parent or grandparent or on the playground..."You are scared of a girl!!!" in that nanny nanny poo poo voice. It's still there.
    Yes and boys are made of slugs and snails and puppy dog tails. What's your point? Because boys are told not to be scared of girls it's OK that 92% of work related deaths are men?




  • Yes and boys are made of slugs and snails and puppy dog tails. What's your point? Because boys are told not to be scared of girls it's OK that 92% of work related deaths are men?

    Yeah that's what I meant. Exactly.:rolleyes:




  • diveout wrote: »
    Yeah that's what I meant. Exactly.:rolleyes:
    When if "you are scared of a girl!!!" is such an indicator of sexism, what is being seen as the product of slugs and snails?

    And how does this change the reality of inequality in adulthood? Or how does it affect the fact that there is a serious case to argue that men and not women have become the second class citizens?

    Unless you're just changing the subject, I don't really understand the relevance of your point is what I'm saying.




  • When if "you are scared of a girl!!!" is such an indicator of sexism, what is being seen as the product of slugs and snails?

    And how does this change the reality of inequality in adulthood? Or how does it affect the fact that there is a serious case to argue that men and not women have become the second class citizens?

    Unless you're just changing the subject, I don't really understand the relevance of your point is what I'm saying.

    Nevermind. It really doesn't matter.




  • I wouldn't jump to conclusions. Many self-identifying feminists use the term because they erroneously identify feminism with gender equality. Or because they reject sexism. Or for various other reasons.

    In reality they probably don't know much about the movement or it's various schools of ideology and would be horrified my what is being peddled as mainstream feminism nowadays. That some do realize is one of the reasons that many women, people, are increasingly choosing to reject the label.

    So I wouldn't write anyone off simply because they used the 'F' word. It's what brand of the 'F' word that matters and that takes a little more probing. For example, if they think that car insurance costs should be gender based (where women would pay less) but health insurance should not (where women would pay more), that is a far better sign of the person you're with.

    And an asshole is an asshole, regardless of what ideology they claim to follow.

    You don't see the problem with this?
    Unfortunately many I have met on date are, quite frankly have degrading attitude of men. It the the words and phrases they choose and the tone of their voice. That tell me here we go again, then I catch myself, and then actually I not playing her game, I am on a night out. So I give them a little time to explain herself, but it always downhill. Then I Just say politely say "Goodnight, I need to go". It has gone so bad I gave up on dating full time, Mainly, because of the ones I met on the internet. I do get other women annoyed when I politely reject their advances. When I politely say "Thanks, but I not interested" or "Thanks, not tonight" if I am somewhere new and never be again. I tried wearing a wedding ring to put them off, but it actually draws more nut cases looking for sex when they are drunk. I seem to attracted the weird drunk ones. I find that if I now look around and enjoying myself they are drawn closer. If I see them coming from a distance, I shake my head. Most get the message, the more weird drunk ones do not.

    Feminists do not actually believe in equality. It power of control and money they want, not to share it. If they actually want equality, then all fathers would have 50% parentage of kids even after separating, women and men been given same prison sentences so more equality in the courts. More men be in schools teaching kids, equality in marriage, and proper separation when divorce. Same punishment for women who commits DV in the family home as men. Men to be believed by the guards/Courts/Government that they are been abused by the their partners. Women arrested for committing DV in the home. Then many a man would not be afraid of rape culture purported by feminists in public life.

    The one thing I am glad of is that feminists here in Ireland is not that strong as it is in Canada and US, especially in their universities where feminists run riots over anyone having a different view that feminists do not like, such as men rights movements.




  • Here one of many of feminists blogs about rape, which is actually all male sex with females is rape. I hear this from feminists many times, especially lesbian feminists in the US when I visits over the years.

    PIV = Penis Intercourse with Vagina. = Rape

    http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

    By the way: Not all lesbians are feminists. They do like women, but not feminists.
    I met many lesbians who have gay friends in the US. and they tell me alot about lesbians abuse mainly from feminists. They feel safer around gay men. When I tell them I not gay, they laugh and Say "You are in a Gay bar. you know that?" My response "yes, to get away from women and relax while drinking and not get harass by women looking for sex"

    Feminists like these women are the basics for main stream media quotes about rape culture.

    I find that gay bars are the best in the US cities for relaxation and enjoy a night out, even though I am not gay.`I never got hassle from gay men for sex, to my surprise. I get less hassle overall from gay men (usually some comment or two to provoke a response) than from drunk women. By god, the gay men can handle a conversation in different view points. It was refreshing., one of my many best nights out.

    Cowboy bars are the next best thing in more rural areas, where I get less hassle from feminists., sorry drunk women looking for sex.


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  • This seems at odds to your opening statement and general view in this thread.

    There's a lot of truth in what you posted, but you're falling foul of the base rate fallacy in your outlook - not something I'd associate with someone who's statistically astute and willing to criticise their own thinking. There's so many broad streams of feminism, to simply silo them all together is pretty crazy in my opinion. There's just as much diversity in opinion there as there is between father's rights groups and that guy in Santa Barbara on the men's rights spectrum.

    How about next time your on a date, you find out what kind of a "feminist" your date is and make a decision based on that? It's not quite putting your assumptions to "real hard test" like you're used to, but it's something I guess.
    It must be the type of feminists, I meet, correction feminists that find me, as I do not actively seek them out. I have bad history with them, so I get harass when I look for deeper information about their stats or comments about men bashing, and when I question their view of history a lot harder. Usually they start their attack and shaming then.....




  • Limklad, unfortunately you appear to be expanding the definition of those who ascribe to misandrist feminist ideology and extending to anyone who might label themselves feminist (often oblivious to the aforementioned misandrist feminist ideology) and then in turn to women in general.

    As I said, I do agree that feminism is effectively 'broken' and has become, on balance, more a force for inequality than equality. And I recognize that there are a lot of bad eggs out there; the 'cake and eat it' brigade who'll cry equality when it suits and then hide behind the old Patriarchal stereotypes of women when they would prefer to avoid personal responsibility.

    But not everyone is like that and while increasingly common, neither are the majority, IMHO. I'm not married. I probably never will be - it just makes no sense for a man to do so anymore, but I don't rule it out either.

    So by all means trust but verify, but don't generalize about an entire gender. It's illogical and serves only to isolate you.

    Anyhow, the War of the Sexes never made sense to me; too much fraternizing with the enemy.




  • To be honest im a bit of a feminist myself, to me it is an insult that she thinks a womans brain cannot function after a drink Im not an idiot i can make my own desions thank you very much, even after a drink as supprising as that might be to your girlfriend




  • Drop her if you have not already done so, plenty more fish in the sea.


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